Thread: Maybe the worst sitting President ever....

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I fear that the 12 century long conflict systematically killing anyone with a backbone in Iraq has perhaps created a permanent mutation or aberration of human beings residing there.

Well, frankly, that's just a pretty silly thing to say. Guess it helps to dehumanise your 'enemy'.

You're reading me wrong. I'm not saying the Iraqis are our enemies!
I'm saying through generations of being subjugated and living in dire poverty and ignorance these people become easy victims of jihadist extremism.

^^^To the other posts here I see in typical fashion since your arguments are so thin and flaccid that you must resort to making personal attacks and insults. This simply underscores the facts that the terrorists have achieved tremendous success in manipulating the public opinion in the world.
If the barbarous truth of what these jihadist extremists are up to was acknowledged we wouldn't be having these ponderous discourses.

Originally Posted by Wallace

Mr Earl again shows his rather selective view of world history.

You forgot to mention that the US armed Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war.

I don't recall Iran being friendly to the USA since 1979!

The fact that the US didn't even bother to try to understand the history or complex politicial situation of Iraq is just another reason why they should stay out of politics outside their borders. There were many people who did understand the situation in Iraq after 10 years of UN sanctions - the weapons inspectors, for one - and they all agreed that Iraq was a mere shell of a country in a desperate situation. What the US did was kick a country that was already on its knees and is now dealing with the consequences of its myopia.

The fact that the USA underestimated numerous aspects of this war doesn't change the overall nature of the barbarous extremism we are fighting.

And by the way, it wasn't the US who 'beat back' Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait, it was a UN force. You make it sound like no other country was involved. But that's exactly how the US manages its media when it comes to conflicts like this.

You might check who led the liberation of Kuwait and who largely funds the UN.

Also the liberation of Iraq is also a US led coalition sanctioned by UN resolutions.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

You're reading me wrong. I'm not saying the Iraqis are our enemies! I'm saying through generations of being subjugated and living in dire poverty and ignorance these people become easy victims of jihadist extremism.

Well all due respect but you've worded that terribly then - because it reads altogether a different 'meaning'. For one it's worthwhile bearing in mind that 'civilisation' as we would define it was much further developed in the ME region in general '12 centuries' ago.

And by what standard are you defining "dire poverty and ignorance"?

It's a given that the wealth of Iraq was far from equally distributed prior to the war(s), but then again what country can claim that in the first place - every nation has its rich and poor to an extent. Any poverty in the country has only been exaccerbated by the wars.

So too 'ignorance', an objective measure of which would be education and education standards, inter alia:

UNESCO reports that prior to the first Gulf War in 1991 Iraq had one the best educational perfomances in the region. Primary school Gross Enrollment Rate was over 100% and literacy levels were high. Since that time education has suffered as a result of war, sanctions, and instability

Education in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course what is taught is as important as how it is taught - probably moreso - but it's a misnomer to suggest widepread "ignorance".

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

You might check who led the liberation of Kuwait and who largely funds the UN.

Sorry but I'm going to have to pull you up on that one, not the 'liberation' bit but the 'who largely funds the UN'.

You may not be aware but the US has a long history of being the UN's largest debtor

US vs. Total Debt to the UN - UN Finance - Global Policy Forum

So in effect the US funds 5/8ths of feck all.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Perhaps one reason that Bush underestimated the depth of madness that existed between the Sunnis and Shias is because in early 2003 (according to the former U.S. ambassador to Croatia), Bush did not even know that these two sects of Islam existed. When they were brought up as a topic of conversation, Bush replied, "I thought Iraqis were Muslims".

This is very frightening.

We always knew he wasn't too knowledgable, but this.....is bad.


Elected not once but twice....

True... but little was really understood about Iraq's closed society prior to 2003.
But it not just about Sunni/Shia animosities. These animosities are being fueled and funded from outside sources. As are the Palestinians animosities.

The blame Bush and blame the USA game is getting overplayed.
Everyone needs to realize that this is the year 2007 and not the year 2000 anymore.
The enemy of the free world is not the USA or GWB!

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

These animosities are being fueled and funded from outside sources. As are the Palestinians animosities.

Really?


Who?

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

^Determining "levels" of cooperation is a fairly subjective enterprise.
Carping on and on about 20/20 hindsight is hardly constructive and leaves the proponents of such carping in abject denial to the reality of the threat of Islamic extremism.
This has been going for over 80 years but it was only after the advent of the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 has it become a focused attack on western civilization.
You can thank Jimmy Carter now!
9/11 was the "day of infamy" which polarized the world. All terrorist supporters were put on the hit list.
GWB happened to be the poor slug who had to deal with it.
He has risen to the occasion and learned from Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, GHB, and Clinton mistakes.
While he certainly isn't perfect he is far from the worst President ever. No other President has been presented with such a threat with dire consequences.
The only way around it is to say 9/11 was made up, exaggerated, or non existent.
The jig is up for Islamic extremism around the world. It seems to be only anti-american leftist rhetoricians who would like to appease them.
I think we learned in 1939 what trying to appease fanatics is all about.

Can you say "Cuban Missle Crisis" ? And did Jimmy Carter depose a popularly elected leader and install a cruel, authoritarian dictator known as the "Shah"? And who derided Bill Clinton when he made efforts to track down and kill Osama Bin Laden? And "determining levels of cooperation is subjective"? That what you call straight talk?

You're so full of it, denial, Fox Noise, on Haliburton's payroll, who knows what, but you obviously have drunk the Kool-Aid. Willful ignorance of the fact that we DO see the threat of Islamic fundalmentalism, we just believe in confronting it in a more measured and common sense approach than "Nuke'em ALL" is your major malfunction. Calling us "appeasers" because we don't buy into Bushco's bullshit is exactly that, bullshit. Bush is a poser, WORD, always has been, always will be.

^ Humm!! I wonder were all the Iranian weapons and operatives found in Iraq are coming from?

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

^ Humm!! I wonder were all the Iranian weapons and operatives found in Iraq are coming from?

Iran is giving some support to the Shiite majority.

This is good for the U.S., as the United States wants to further allow the Shiite government (Al-Maliki, Al-Sadr, Hamza) to solidify control and maintain security, right?

^ the only good news would be for US to be in a position to make a graceful exit.
Unfortunately it's looking like we will be having a continued military presence in Iraq for generations as we have had in Germany, Korea, Japan, and other places around the world.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

True... but little was really understood about Iraq's closed society prior to 2003.

yeah, right !!! showing your complete ignorance again. I guess knowledge is not your forte.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Unfortunately it's looking like we will be having a continued military presence in Iraq for generations as we have had in Germany, Korea, Japan, and other places around the world.

I didn't know you were fighting insurgents in Germany, Korean and Japan for so many years !!!

^"they often call me speedo, but my real name is Mr Earl"
Song by Ry Cooder writen by the "Cadillacs"

Originally Posted by floorpotato

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I think Bush an company underestimated the depth of madness which existed after 1200 years of sunni/shia power struggles.

Perhaps one reason that Bush underestimated the depth of madness that existed between the Sunnis and Shias is because in early 2003 (according to the former U.S. ambassador to Croatia), Bush did not even know that these two sects of Islam existed. When they were brought up as a topic of conversation, Bush replied, "I thought Iraqis were Muslims".

Another great post by Floorpotato.

Here's an excerpt and link to the Ambassador to Croatia, Peter Gailbrath.

Former Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith is claiming President George W. Bush was unaware that there were two major sects of Islam just two months before the President ordered troops to invade Iraq.

In his new book, The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created A War Without End, Galbraith, the son of the late economist John Kenneth Galbraith, claims that American leadership knew very little about the nature of Iraqi society and the problems it would face after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

A year after his “Axis of Evil” speech before the U.S. Congress, President Bush met with three Iraqi Americans, one of whom became postwar Iraq’s first representative to the United States. The three described what they thought would be the political situation after the fall of Saddam Hussein. During their conversation with the President, Galbraith claims, it became apparent to them that Bush was unfamiliar with the distinction between Sunnis and Shiites.

Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam--to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”

Other reports also place Bush announcing newfound knowledge of the differences between Muslim groups shortly before entering the Iraq war.

In an interview with RAW STORY, Ambassador Galbraith recounted this anecdote from his book to exemplify “a culture of arrogance that pervaded the whole administration.”

and....

“From the president and the vice president down through the neoconservatives at the Pentagon, there was a belief that Iraq was a blank slate on which the United States could impose its vision of a pluralistic democratic society,” said Galbraith. “The arrogance came in the form of a belief that this could be accomplished with minimal effort and planning by the United States and that it was not important to know something about Iraq.”

and....

Galbraith argues that because the new Iraq was never a voluntary creation of its people--but rather held together by force--America’s ongoing attempt to preserve a unified nation is guaranteed to fail, especially since it’s divided into three different entities.


“You can’t have a national unity government when there is no nation, no unity, and no government,” said Galbraith.

Entire article and link: The Raw Story | Ambassador claims shortly before invasion, Bush didn't know there were two sects of Islam

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I didn't know you were fighting insurgents in Germany, Korean and Japan for so many years !!!

I didn't say we were fighting insurgents. Read a little more carefully. The USA has had a continued military presence in those countries for a very long time.

The insurgency in Iraq will peter out. And Mickey D's and pizza hut will move in. Iraqis will have cell phones glued to their heads like everywhere else.
It is the sound of inevitability Mr Anderson!

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

The insurgency in Iraq will peter out. And Mickey D's and pizza hut will move in. Iraqis will have cell phones glued to their heads like everywhere else.
It is the sound of inevitability Mr Anderson!

I think I have heard that one before with those other lines

"they will welcome us with open arms, blah blah ..."

I think you need to call Boon Mee to the rescue because you are sinking here...

From THE FOG OF WAR: ELEVEN LESSONS FROM THE LIFE OF ROBERT S. McNAMARA

1995

There aren't many examples in which you bring two former enemies together, at the highest levels, and discuss what might have been. I formed the hypothesis that each of us could have achieved our objectives without the terrible loss of life. And I wanted to test that by going to Vietnam.

The former Foreign Minister of Vietnam, a wonderful man named Thach said, "You're totally wrong. We were fighting for our independence. You were fighting to enslave us."
We almost came to blows. That was noon on the first day.

"Do you mean to say it was not a tragedy for you, when you lost 3 million 4 hundred thousand Vietnamese killed, which on our population base is the equivalent of 27 million Americans? What did you accomplish? You didn't get any more than we were willing to give you at the beginning of the war. You could have had the whole damn thing: independence, unification."

"Mr. McNamara, You must never have read a history book. If you'd had, you'd know we weren't pawns of the Chinese or the Russians. McNamara, didn't you know that? Don't you understand that we have been fighting the Chinese for 1000 years? We were fighting for our independence. And we would fight to the last man. And we were determined to do so. And no amount of bombing, no amount of U.S. pressure would ever have stopped us."

You would really have thought that the USA cheeses would have done a little more research about Iraq.........

Originally Posted by surasak

-Nearly two-thirds of Americans appear to have given up on success in Iraq and also on his presidency. -Two-thirds believe he shouldn’t move ahead with his troop increase to Iraq.

The other third are mentally retarded and could not be counted

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I think you need to call Boon Mee to the rescue because you are sinking here...

perhaps.....because we are caught in a circular argument here that has no easy exit.

The wheels of the great military industrial complexes are turning and there's not much we can do about it but enjoy the ride!
I hope you own some Boeing stock!

The sad thing is that we should have recognized from the beginning that terrorism is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem. A BBC special the other night ("Jihad.com") showed how Al Qaeda has been able to use the Internet as a recruitment, organizational and training tool making travel unnecessary and national borders and national governments irrelevant.

Sadly, Bush has squandered so much treasure on the misadventure in Iraq that we can't afford to beef up law enforcement in ways that it would make it effective against terror while preserving our freedoms and liberties. (When law enforcement steps on people's rights its usually a matter of expediency, not necessity.)

I had my office next door to the FBI for five or six years and couldn't believe how pitiful their operation was. They didn't even have a toilet within their office space. That's right. If they had a suspect in custody who had to take a pee they had to waltz him across the lobby of the building so he could use the public loo. Insane. Their computer system was joke: down half the time with little access to data that mattered. They used to come to me for help in locating "persons of interest". And, we're not talking pre-9/11 here. This was the case through my retirement in April of 2005.

I think it noteworthy that the BBC special ended with words from a retired CIA guy who was formerly head of the "Bin Laden desk" at the CIA. When asked when we'd make progress against terrorists he said it only happen when governments stopped lying and telling people that the terrorists were out to destroy our lifestyle and take away our freedoms. Nonsense. They just want us out of their lives, out of their countries and to mind our own business.

Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward

when governments stopped lying and telling people that the terrorists were out to destroy our lifestyle and take away our freedoms. Nonsense. They just want us out of their lives, out of their countries and to mind our own business.

it would be great if someone in the 2008 presidential campaing had the courage to say the above nearly verbatim...and leaving nothing to get highjacked by the 'swiftboaters' or other cogs in the demonization machine.

Originally Posted by raycarey

it would be great if someone in the 2008 presidential campaing had the courage to say the above nearly verbatim...and leaving nothing to get highjacked by the 'swiftboaters' or other cogs in the demonization machine.

You're dreamin'....