Precisely - chop down the trees and get a low timber price because the scum know you're desperate.Quote:
Originally Posted by crepitas
A lower income is better than no income at all, it is still a commodity that people buy
Printable View
Precisely - chop down the trees and get a low timber price because the scum know you're desperate.Quote:
Originally Posted by crepitas
A lower income is better than no income at all, it is still a commodity that people buy
Just asked one of the local drive by wet cup buyers, today's price 16 baht a kilo, they all took a hit over the Buddha holiday, buying on 22 Oct. prices.
crepitas, your right Thais will survive, there is going to be a lot more cheap second hand cars for sale, Thai guy down the road, fair sized rubber plantation, just handed the keys over on a 2 year old car.
Bright side, if there is one, there will be a lot less rubber out there, government is clearing illegal plantations all over the country. Have facebook friends from Vietnam, buyers and exporters, saying a lot of trees getting felled there.
Back to the finance company I assume, do they keep lists of what they have for sale? Or do they sell at auctions or dealers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
No idea what the banks do with the cars, guess an auction somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
Strange thing is defaulting on the loan seems to have little effect on your credit rating, just a loss of face.
# Correction. 21.37 baht per kg. Not 21.73.
# 18 baht is the going rate around here on gate prices.
# Most of the trees being cut down round here are going to the Double A Eucalyptus buyers, ie sold for paper pulp rather than furniture lumber. Absolute crying shame.
# A LOT of bargains to be had now and in the near future, re cars, m/cycles, land and houses. A lot of debt and a lot of people starting to suffer financially, in all walks of life, not just farmers.
Rubber is the main legal income around my way, low prices mean house building stops, shops sell less, no one spends. So yes it's not just the farmers who lose, noticeable on Tuesday, the full moon Buddha day.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Normally the night is alive with fireworks, this year few bought them, no money spare.
Well, we finally made it. Sold below the 20 baht threshold, yesterday at auction, Udon province, 19.29 baht per kg.
Had buyers phoning, to see if we had rubber for sale, crap 16 bt, but very little rubber around.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Most tappers and small family plantations have gone over to rice harvesting for wages.
19.2 baht the other day at aution, udon thani. yes our tappers are days down because busy cutting the rice............
Sold at auction, Udon province, cup rubber;
24/11/15, 19.70 baht per kg,
yesterday 20.16 baht per kg.
Many (most) operations going over to a 55/45 % split, as recommended by the local Sor Kor Yor office, until prices stay regularly above 20 baht per kg. My staff yesterday had a glum look on their face as they got a 40% payout. We will probably follow suit, if the next sale is below 20 by going to a 55/45 split.
I am loathed to change the percentages, once done hard to claw it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
We have been giving the tappers a bit of extra money for fuel etc and small loans if needed.
Think the prices have bottomed out now, only way is up, this well be the first year where rubber output fell world wide.
Hard to get solid numbers, but the GRM people [in some stats] are saying over 200,000 MT shortfall.
Fingers crossed, but fairly sure we will make it through another season.
The agro bank has phoned up offering soft loans, don't want to borrow, but it's good to know the money is there if needed.
Fingers crossed.
Of course I could well be wrong here but it must be somewhat perplexing to know that the only light at the end of the tunnel is that one can borrow money ,just to survive , the only problem being of course is that the end of the day it has to be paid back , a simple thought that some how evades the Thai line of thinking .Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
Would think that levels of debt here are well below western debt.Quote:
Originally Posted by piwanoi
Thai banks aren't going broke from debt defaults, they loan to people they believe can repay said loans.
For us, we are talking up to 100,000 Bt. to cover the dormant period, shouldn't need it, but you never know. bet many have credit cards with higher limits.
Indeed, i agree, if split % change, it could be difficult to get back. Looking at my books, one year ago exactly, prices were the same to within a few satang. I've told the staff we are in this together, through thick and thin. Put the boot on the other foot, what happens when prices maybe hit 60 baht kg cup/130 baht sheet, do we then say we'll have a 65/35 split because you're earning too much? The look on their face said "ah yeah good point"...Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
Another point in this % split, your trees and mine pump out a hell of a lot more rubber then the usual Thai cared for plantations.
I'd say my trees put out at least twice as much as the locals, so the tappers on local plantations get far less.
For some of the plantations around here, makes no difference on the split, their tappers have already gone to better paid jobs. Husband and wife tapping team needs to earn minimum wage at least or they will get a job, no shortage of work really.
?????????????????????? [ TRA News ]
New York, NY - ReportLinker forecasts worldwide demand for tires is projected to increase 4.1 percent per year to 3.0 billion units in 2019. In value terms, sales of tires are forecast to grow 7.1 percent per year to $258 billion. Increasing incomes in developing regions will spur growth in the number of vehicles in use, fueling demand for tires.
https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
Not sure if the above pic worked so will try another way below. (Photo taken just after sunrise this morning)
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2015/12/662.jpg
I seldom get up early anymore to see.
Are you here, if so come on over for a few beers, stay the night and have a few more beers. Jim
Jim , have you ever tried making your own wine ? this climate is perfect for fermenting and all the ingredients can be had here for peanuts .Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
Not really, but have planted some cashew nut trees, not doing well, but cashew nut apples allegedly make good wine.Quote:
Originally Posted by piwanoiJim , have you ever tried making your own wine ? this climate is perfect for fermenting and all the ingredients can be had here for peanuts .Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
Just a beer man over all, wine or spirits make an alco, beer just makes you a drunk.
That's he killer out here, once you step over the beer line, whiskey/ Sam song/ Mekong ,Lao Kow, , time to get out.
Sold cup @ auction yesterday, Udon province, 18.28 baht per kg. 55-45% split.
We have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.
Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.
Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.
As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim
No idea..nuffin here...suggest forms are perhaps given to registered companies such as yourself.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollisterWe have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.
Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.
Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.
As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim
Nope, not heard nothing. Forms come from which dept?
wife has a bit of rubber but not heard of these forms, she is in with the local amper people.....Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollisterWe have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.
Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.
Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.
As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim
an eg: wife has a agro business that she pays tax on. taxed at source ie sell to big company, then is left to sort the other percents out with the tax office in big city ect... many things that can discount the amount of tax you pay. ie. children school fees, bank loans ect... all will reduce the tax amount. she does pay a local amper tax too, on size of operation sq metre ect. then another tax to do with business stuff, all at local level, not even 10,000 baht a year so not to bad.
have 2 full time workers that get looked at too, they do not pay tax as the income that we declare for them falls just short of 120,000 each per year, over this amount I think that they would have to pay a small amount of tax.
on a side note the "family" have a small village shop, this is also taxed on yearly basis, size sq metre - local amper foods eat in (noddles ect )again at local amper then petrol beer meat ect goes to different offices around a very broad area, the police come and check that all bills are taken care of..... all above you would get change out of 5,000 baht per year. but bigger shop bigger bills........
National rubber board, via the locals.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Wife says everyone who got the last government hand out has received them.
Supposedly for fertilizer grants, replanting assistance, etc.
Bit I don't like is this, how many trees, output and tapping or not, they already know that people got money for up to 25 rai last time and 10 rai this time.
Dangling a carrot in the hope you declare how many trees you have, yet not saying you will get anything for sure.
Going to only claim the 25 rai that they already know of.
Farmerjohn, have a rubber factory/company, pay taxes etc, but anyone working there, [not operating at the moment] are employees, tappers are percentage workers so no social security, no minimum wage.
If they become employees you would need to pay them, daily, weekly or monthly, plus 15 percent tax on your income and VAT if you make enough sheet rubber.
The whole tapping, collecting system would need to change to a continues tapping cycle, less tappers, tapping less trees, but everyday.
no sorry, the workers I mention are not the tappers, these work at different business.... the tappers that work the wifes trees don't earn enough to keep themselves let alone have to pay tax........ the wife has been paying tax now for some 5 plus years on other business interests..... the rubber trees only work for afew months of the year, hardly worth having them....... yes our amper have computerized records of farm sub money given out over the years. plus land tax paid over years too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollisterNational rubber board, via the locals.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
Wife says everyone who got the last government hand out has received them.
Supposedly for fertilizer grants, replanting assistance, etc.
Bit I don't like is this, how many trees, output and tapping or not, they already know that people got money for up to 25 rai last time and 10 rai this time.
Dangling a carrot in the hope you declare how many trees you have, yet not saying you will get anything for sure.
Going to only claim the 25 rai that they already know of.
Farmerjohn, have a rubber factory/company, pay taxes etc, but anyone working there, [not operating at the moment] are employees, tappers are percentage workers so no social security, no minimum wage.
If they become employees you would need to pay them, daily, weekly or monthly, plus 15 percent tax on your income and VAT if you make enough sheet rubber.
The whole tapping, collecting system would need to change to a continues tapping cycle, less tappers, tapping less trees, but everyday.
record keeping is slowly coming into play just like who is where and when in our area.......
Been having a search on farm taxation, looks like if you earn over 150,000 Bt per year your supposed to file a tax return and pay tax.
No one does of course, and the authorities don't know if you have rubber or rice on your land.
But and there is always a but, if they believe your income is over 150,000, then they can sent you an assessed tax bill.
Since most rubber from small plantations is cash in hand deals no records of income.
Not saying this is for tax assessments, but they will be getting numbers, for the land they know of already, not any of the other plantations.
Not much to look forward to according to this article , Too much rubber, too few tyres leaves tappers in sticky place | Bangkok Post: news here in my area 50 kms north of Buriram according to two medium sized rubber farmers all they are getting is 13 baht a kilo .
Take all these reports with a grain of salt, BBC today El nino 2016 food shortages, lack of water etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by piwanoi
Global rubber market web site, rubber production down, 200,000 ton short fall predicted, if they really had some insight, they'ed be billionaires in no time at all.
Local prices will bottom out over the Xmas new year period, everyone is on holiday.
China may have slowed, but it's still growing, will have to just sit it out, even the article is saying tappers are leaving the plantations, how many will impacted output as will El nino.
I find it hard to understand why sheet rubber has gone up, as no one is making it in my area.
Such is life, full rice bowl today, tomorrow will take care of it's self.
Nice to read the Thoughts of an eternal optimist , A happy New year Jim ,and lets hope you and all the other rubber farmers have a prosperous 2016 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollisterTake all these reports with a grain of salt, BBC today El nino 2016 food shortages, lack of water etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by piwanoi
Global rubber market web site, rubber production down, 200,000 ton short fall predicted, if they really had some insight, they'ed be billionaires in no time at all.
Local prices will bottom out over the Xmas new year period, everyone is on holiday.
China may have slowed, but it's still growing, will have to just sit it out, even the article is saying tappers are leaving the plantations, how many will impacted output as will El nino.
I find it hard to understand why sheet rubber has gone up, as no one is making it in my area.
Such is life, full rice bowl today, tomorrow will take care of it's self.
One of my rare forays into the village yesterday, sitting round the camp fire with a couple of boxes of Chang. Banter was among other things, 13 baht per kg for cup on the gate, and 1200 baht per tonne for lumber...
SIL near NK Thammarat got 13baht/kilo last sale...about the same as our 15baht as no water content discount.Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguzzi
I will ask the question once again:
Keep reading about rubber farmers abandoning cutting because of some break-even point of 60+ baht. Surely trees still grow, still produce latex even at a reduced rate if not fertilized etc. What is/are the costs of production..?Beats me, 50% of something is better than 50% of sweet f all surely?
We have maybe 80 rai under the knife; our neighbors, who cut for us, have maybe 20 rai.
FF Sake 600- 800 baht a day is better than Sweet f all!!?
^ You are correct
Due to the daily income aspect of rubber it would be folly to stop tapping, as long as there are a few baht in it then the difference for many would be earning zero or earning a little bit for food etc...
All about the dollars, that 60 Bt is for RSS, not enough money to cover workers costs, wood electricity and taxes in my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by crepitas
My percentage tappers, say to much work for the extra few Baht, owner operator plantations, different story, they could make sheet, but small electric or hand rollers take for ever.
Now out here the locals can't get tappers, so they can only tap their best trees themselves, say 20 rai, leaving the other trees to stand idle.
Small plantations poor trees, the owners take other better paying jobs, when they can, or leave the wife to tap and head off to work in the city.
Local Doctor has about 200 rai, only has workers for 50 rai, so the output here will be down.
No one wants to work for peanuts, so you have to get at least the minimum wage, time will tell how much rubber is being produced.
Plus there is a drought, don't bother me much, we get too much rain, but inland from the mountains, it's dry as a bone and the rubber slows to a trickle, for some not worth the effort.
Thai's aren't really industrious in the first place, have rice and everything else is secondary.
Sorry to interrupt the Rubber thread but as you fellas are in the know, just wondering about Cassarva coming in from Laos to be sold in Thailand?
The village is all talking about that this morning. Coming and selling in Nam Yuen (Southern Ubon) and bringing the price down as a result.
Is this anything new? To do with ASEAN? Something else? Maybe just a first for this area.
About 8 years ago SIL and husband got a 50/50 split which included them making sheet...guess things have changed?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollisterAll about the dollars, that 60 Bt is for RSS, not enough money to cover workers costs, wood electricity and taxes in my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by crepitas
My percentage tappers, say to much work for the extra few Baht, owner operator plantations, different story, they could make sheet, but small electric or hand rollers take for ever.
Now out here the locals can't get tappers, so they can only tap their best trees themselves, say 20 rai, leaving the other trees to stand idle.
Small plantations poor trees, the owners take other better paying jobs, when they can, or leave the wife to tap and head off to work in the city.
Local Doctor has about 200 rai, only has workers for 50 rai, so the output here will be down.
No one wants to work for peanuts, so you have to get at least the minimum wage, time will tell how much rubber is being produced.
Plus there is a drought, don't bother me much, we get too much rain, but inland from the mountains, it's dry as a bone and the rubber slows to a trickle, for some not worth the effort.
Thai's aren't really industrious in the first place, have rice and everything else is secondary.