Thread: Ex-Israeli prime minister heckled on San Francisco visit

there seems to be this belief that the $6n or so dollars that comes Israel's way each year courtesy of the United States is like some sort of straight cash grant.

it isn't. Quite a portion of the aid consists of loans payable WITH INTEREST. Other large recipients of US aid, such as Egypt, which receives nearly as much aid as Israel does, get a far higher proportion of straight no-strings cash.

besides this amount is just the tiniest pinprick on the enormous US budget. It consists of roughly 0.0001% of it. Americans certainly don't seem to be unduly concerned about it. I noticed one poll last year during the Gaza campaign where the numbers dropped compared to normally, but just about every poll I've ever seen on the matter shows that the US public overwhelmingly endorses the USA's support of Israel.

it is not a one-sided "free hand out". In return, the US has a staunch ally with vast intelligence resource. Much was learned about Soviet equipment in this theater during the cold war - including the capture, for the first and as far as I know only time, of a fully functional MiG fighter plane. That alone was probably worth every penny the US has provided to support this fellow democracy.

Originally Posted by callippo

In return, the US has a staunch ally with vast intelligence resource.

A fractious ally, given it's endless foot dragging on the peace process and establishment of the Palestinian state- in defiance of the International community and it's own previous government agreements. I have to agree with the vast Intelligence resources, although a somewhat two edged sword there too- most of the spies apprehended for carrying out espionage and selling US state secrets in recent years have been working for the Israeli's!



the top 16 recipients of U.S. foreign aid for 2005:

1. Israel 2.58 Billion
2. Egypt 1.84 Billion
3. Afganistan 0.98 Billion
4. Pakistan 0.70 Billion
5. Colombia 0.57 Billion
6. Sudan 0.50 Billion
7. Jordan 0.48 Billion
8. Uganda 0.25 Billion
9. Kenya 0.24 Billion
10. Ethiopia 0.19 Billion
11. South Africa 0.19 Billion
12. Peru 0.19 Billion
13. Indonesia 0.18 Billion
14. Bolivia 0.18 Billion
15. Nigeria 0.18 Billion
16. Zambia 0.18 Billion



That, of course is just the 'official' budget- the real tally is considerably higher as is widely known, be it through Debt guarantees, soft loans, or charity routed via Defence and Intelligence budgets.

I suggest you read up a little on the 2000 Camp David talks before you start blaming Israel for 'foot-dragging' when it comes to establishing a Palestinian state, also who it was who rejected the 1947 partition plan that would have established such an entity sixty years ago - a pattern of rejectionism on the part of the Arabs that has continued ever since.

yes, there's been a few convictions of spies working for Israel over the years, but not 'most'. Take Johnathon Pollard, who has been in jail for over a quarter of a century, despite stringent efforts/appeals to free him from the highest levels of the Israeli government, he's still in prison all that time and will likely die there. So much for the fabled power of the Jewish lobby - any US President could have freed him anytime they felt like it in minutes with the stroke of a pen.

it's a bit long but ...

ok in youtube..

Originally Posted by callippo
a fully functional MiG fighter plane. That alone was probably worth every penny the US has provided to support this fellow democracy.

we will trade that against the stolen F16 secrets so Israel could build its own fighter...ok?

Ben-Gurion:
"Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interest was self-defence … But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defence. As for setting the borders – it’s an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in history there are all kinds of definitions of the country’s borders, so there’s no real limit."

Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.

Other recipients get their money in quarterly installments, but Israel receives its entire appropriation at the beginning of each fiscal year and can thus earn interest on it. Most recipients of aid given for military purposes are required to spend all of it in the US, but Israel is allowed to use roughly 25 per cent of its allocation to subsidise its own defence industry. It is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, which makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the US opposes, such as building settlements on the West Bank. Moreover, the US has provided Israel with nearly $3 billion to develop weapons systems, and given it access to such top-drawer weaponry as Blackhawk helicopters and F-16 jets. Finally, the US gives Israel access to intelligence it denies to its Nato allies and has turned a blind eye to Israel’s acquisition of nuclear weapons.

LRB · John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt · The Israel Lobby

Originally Posted by woodenshoe

Ben-Gurion:
"Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interest was self-defence … But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defence. As for setting the borders – it’s an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in history there are all kinds of definitions of the country’s borders, so there’s no real limit."

If this is accurate (no source attributed) then Israel has been scamming America for a long time. Sure would like to see this quote on a billboard.

1949: The First Israelis

First published in 1986 in Israel, Tom Segev's book excited controversy by suggesting that the founders of the Jewish state courted war in 1948 by refusing to negotiate in good faith with Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Segev cites, for instance, the argument of finance minister David Horowitz that the West Bank should be annexed not to Israel but to Jordan, because the West Bank would be a financial burden on any power that occupied it and Jordan might therefore become dependent on Israel for assistance--and thus easy to manipulate politically. Segev also explores the ideological disagreements among Israel's founders, some of which are being revisited today in the clash between religious and secular politicians.

Thanks, Woodenshoe. I should check that out.

"Netanyahu said in a speech at the Saban Forum in Jerusalem Sunday evening, saying he wanted a full peace agreement with them. Then he warned, "Any unilateral action would only unravel the framework of agreements between us and can only lead to one-sided steps on the part of Israel."

What framework is he going to destroy that he hasn't already trampled to death? He goes along with only those existing conditions that he wants to for as long as he wants to, he came into office saying he was not in favor of a two state solution and is not negotiating in good faith. His statement proves that it won't tolerate any action that it doesn't approve of, ?...and can only lead to on-sided steps on the state of Israel."

I'd be inclined to call his bluff, but I don't think the timing is right. Besides, it's not my country I'd be betting.

In the end, America would veto it in a heartbeat. It just wouldn't allow itself to be put in the bind of having to make a hard commitment to a Palestian State, at least in the forum of the UN, and this government is too well paid for to break out of that bind and do the right thing.