Thread: Russia launches Ukraine invasion

The Leopards are free!! Slava Ukraini!

German news magazine Der Spiegel and others published stories on Tuesday evening saying that the government in Berlin had decided to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.

This follows a long-running debate on the issue among NATO allies, and comes after Poland formally asked Berlin for permission to send some of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine earlier on Tuesday.
Spiegel magazine reported that the decision would involve sending at least one company of Leopard 2A6 tanks.

Spiegel attributed its information to government sources but did not identify them. Broadcaster ntv issued a similar report, and the dpa news agency later said its "coalition sources" had said the same. But the government did not immediately comment publicly on the reports.

German-made military equipment can only be sent to third countries with approval from Berlin. Spiegel reported that other European countries, including some in Scandinavia, would also supply their tanks to Kyiv.

Although Germany's Defense Ministry, military, and several other actors would surely have been involved in discussions, ultimately the authority to make this decision rests with Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

New defense minister hinted at movement earlier on Tuesday

On Tuesday morning, at a meeting with NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin, German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said, "I am expecting a decision to be reached shortly" when it came to exporting Leopard tanks to Ukraine.

Pistorius said that various preparatory work had already begun to facilitate such exports should they be approved, tackling issues like ordnance, maintenance and repairs, and training Ukrainian troops to operate them.

"We are already preparing ourselves for all of that," said Pistorius, who was only sworn in last Thursday following his predecessor's resignation. "And for the event of a positive decision, we will then be capable of acting very quickly."

A decision or some form of announcement on this had been expected in some corners at last week's meeting of NATO and other countries' defense ministers at the US military air base in Ramstein in Germany, but it did not materialize. That was Pistorius' second official day in the role.

The news also coincides with the Wall Street Journal reporting that the US would consider sending some comparable M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine.
One reason Germany had given for its reticence was not wanting to be seen as "going it alone" within NATO.

Britain is also sending comparable Challenger battle tanks to Ukraine, and France is said to be considering a similar step.
Similar pattern to other German weapons exports

Germany's approach to sending weaponry to Ukraine has come up for criticism among some allies since the war in Ukraine broke out.

That is primarily because of Germany's restrictive policies on exporting weapons to hot conflicts that have largely applied since the country's defeat in World War II.

The country has undone several principles or rules it typically held to in post-war years to support Ukraine.

However, doing so has typically taken time, often more time than other NATO allies have needed.

Similar debates took place first over sending items to Ukraine that were potentially lethal (initial German offers were for non-lethal equipment like helmets, night-vision goggles, tents and so forth), and then over an array of other military equipment, from ground-to-air defense systems to armored vehicles like the Marder personnel carriers, among other things.

Ukraine and several of Germany's NATO allies have called on Berlin to act faster at times. In Berlin on Tuesday, NATO's Stoltenberg sought to focus on those deliveries that had materialized, saying that German weapons were "saving lives every day in Ukraine."

But Stoltenberg urged this to continue, saying: "The only way to a lasting peace lies in making it clear to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin that he will not win on the battlefield."

Pistorius also looked to address this on Tuesday, saying the tank dispute risked distracting from what Germany was delivering, saying it was equipment worth roughly €3.3 billion (around $3.5 billion) in total.

"That is getting lost at the moment because of the discussion about tank deliveries and tank operations," Pistorius said. "Only the United Kingdom is also dealing with figures in that region, besides [the leading donor] the United States."

First political reactions come in before confirmation

Although the government was yet to confirm the decision on Tuesday evening, the first political responses from allies and opposition parties alike were already trickling in ready for publication in Wednesday's newspapers based on the reports.

Ukraine's former ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, took to Twitter saying: "Hallelujah! Jesus Christ! And now, dear allies, let's establish a powerful fighter jet coalition for Ukraine..." listing various modern NATO models he'd like to include.

he chair of the defense policy committee in the Bundestag, Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann of the Free Democrats, said "the decision was arduous, it lasted much too long, but in the end it was inevitable."

A leading Green party politician, from the other coalition ally to Scholz's Social Democrats, Kathrin Göring-Eckardt picked up on the "FreeTheLeopards" slogan that had been circulating on social media, writing in English: "The leopard's freed!" She said she hoped it would quickly prove itself useful to Ukraine.

The leader of the opposition Christian Democrats, Friedrich Merz, said the decision was correct but accused Scholz of having "hesitated too long."

Only the far-left and far-right opposition forces in the Bundestag objected to the decision at first. Tino Chrupalla, co-leader of the Alternative for Germany (AfD), said it risked drawing Germany "directly into the war." And the parliamentary caucus leader of the Left party, Dietmar Bartsch, told dpa the decision meant "another taboo has fallen" that had more potential to "lead towards a third world war than towards peace in Europe."

One prominent German security observer, Ulrike Franke, wrote on Twitter that she was surprised to see this decision so soon after the Ramstein meeting of defense ministers less than a week ago.

She has criticized Germany's government for a pattern of slow approval on such questions in recent months, often following a period of pressure where Berlin would stress it had not yet taken such a decision.

Franke, a fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations think tank, wrote in response to the news, "How and why was it impossible to make this happen for Ramstein? Sooo much broken porcelain to in the end arrive here."

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-sen...rts/a-64503898

Whoopee, a few thousand more dead people! Seems a strange thing to celebrate, but your latest wunderwaffen will not affect the outcome, any more than your last one did.
Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory, and the more the west arms Ukraine and the war drags on, the more Russia push away Ukraine from it's current borders.
Like most every war, the final outcome will be decided over the negotiating table. I would not be at all surprised to see the Kiev regime fall, either- but that's a 'maybe'.

Originally Posted by sabang

Whoopee, a few thousand more dead people!

More likely a few thousand less Ukranians. Russian forces are not going to stop offensives whether Leopards are there or not but they will make a difference in Ukraine military and civilian deaths.

I wonder if we'll see an actual good old fashioned tank battle, a mini Kursk? Helicopter gunships, anti-tank mines and anti-tank missiles seem to be the main offensive weapons against those iron coffins in modern warfare.

Originally Posted by sabang

I wonder if we'll see an actual good old fashioned tank battle, a mini Kursk?

We already did in Kharkiv, and the Russians best tank Armies got decimated.

A Hundred Wrecked Tanks In A Hundred Hours: Ukraine Guts Russia’s Best Tank Army

The Ukrainian Army Reportedly Destroyed Another Russian Division

Fear and Frustration in Moscow as Air Defense Systems Deployed

The installation of air defense systems in the center of the Russian capital in recent weeks has been met with fear and anger by locals — as well as some indifference — as concerns appear to grow over Ukraine’s military ability to strike deep within Russian territory.


“Some people are panicking, some are irritated and some of my neighbors consider this a military escalation,” said a Muscovite living near the Losiny Ostrov (Elk Island) National Park in northeast Moscow near where an air defense battery was reportedly deployed.


“People are angry that there is no official information.”


At least five anti-aircraft missile systems have been spotted across Moscow in recent weeks, appearing in parks and on top of buildings as the Ukraine war — now in its 11th month — creeps closer to the Russian capital.


They include what looks to be a Pantsir-S1 surface-to-air system on the roof of the Defense Ministry headquarters a few kilometers from the Kremlin and a S-400 anti-aircraft system near the Timiryazevskaya metro station in the north of the capital.


The installation of these systems amid fears that Ukraine, supplied with advanced weaponry from its Western allies, could be capable of targeting Moscow.


In Losiny Ostrov, workers began clearing an area of woodland for the battery on New Year’s Day, according to the Muscovite who requested anonymity to speak freely.

Another air defense system was spotted last week near the Taganskaya metro station in сentral Moscow.


“When I first read reports about the air defense systems in Moscow, I thought it was fake news. And then I saw that air defense system on a nearby building when I was standing on my balcony,” a woman who lives near Taganskaya told The Moscow Times.


“I was surprised. When I was about to go to bed that day, there were some fireworks — I got up a few times to check that everything was OK,” she added. “It was really scary.”

While the appearance of the military equipment has caused concern among some local residents, others said they were unconcerned about the possibility of Ukrainian strikes — or said they were too frustrated to follow the news about the war.


“We understand that they will protect the center of Moscow and the Defense Ministry,” said Vera, who lives in an apartment close to the Defense Ministry headquarters.


“We mind our own business and are just waiting for this to end.”


“I'm just tired of being nervous,” said another Muscovite, who requested anonymity.


Pantsir-S1 systems — which protect against a variety of weapons, including those launched from aircraft as well as ground-launched missiles — have also apparently been deployed in recent weeks near President Vladimir Putin’s official residences in Novo-Ogaryovo outside Moscow and in the Novgorod region, according to media reports.


No officials have yet commented on the air defense systems and Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov refused to say Friday whether Russia was preparing for an attack on the capital.


But Russia’s Defense Ministry said over the weekend that it held a training exercise on repelling air attacks in the Moscow region.


“Ukraine has the technical ability to send drones that could reach Moscow; the question is why those drones couldn't be intercepted by Russia’s air defense systems on their way from Ukraine to Moscow,” military expert Yury Fedorov told The Moscow Times.


The Moscow systems are “a signal Russia’s air defenses are in a deplorable state,” he added.


The deployment of air defense batteries to the Russian capital appears to have come shortly after successful drone attacks on airfields in Russia’s Saratov and Ryazan regions — some 600 kilometers from the frontline in Ukraine — that have been attributed to Kyiv.


But the visibility of the new anti-missile defense systems might also serve a propaganda purpose as Russia’s forces continue to deliver lackluster results on the battlefield.


According to the U.S.-based Institute for the Study of War, one goal behind deploying such equipment in heavily populated urban areas was likely “to generate inflammatory images that portray the war as more threatening to the Russian public.”


News of the air defense systems’ appearance was widely shared by influential pro-war bloggers on messaging app Telegram.

“One of the tasks is entirely technical — the deployment of modern air defense systems that are able to intercept drones,” political expert Ivan Preobrazhensky told The Moscow Times.


“And since this deployment is impossible to hide, it’s being done as publicly as possible so Russian people will not feel calm at home.”


However, it seems likely that the deployment will also irritate Moscow residents — especially as it is widely known that successful interceptions by such air defense batteries can carry risks for those on the ground below.


“We all understand that fragments of rockets would fall on nearby buildings,” said the Muscovite who lives near Losiny Ostrov.


Others highlighted that Russian officials have repeatedly accused Ukraine of causing civilian casualties when Ukrainian systems intercepted Russian rockets.


Earlier this month, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov blamed Ukrainian air defenses for the destruction of a residential building in Ukraine’s Dnipro that killed 46 people.


“Lavrov complained about the installation of air defense systems in residential areas in Ukraine — now the same thing is happening in Moscow,” said a Muscovite who lives near the Taganskaya metro where such a system was recently installed.


“I think it’s absurd.”

Fear and Frustration in Moscow as Air Defense Systems Deployed - The Moscow Times

WashingtonCNN —
US and Western officials are urging Ukraine to shift its focus from the brutal, months-long fight in the eastern city of Bakhmut and prioritize instead a potential offensive in the south, using a different style of fighting that takes advantage of the billions of dollars in new military hardware recently committed by Western allies, US and Ukrainian officials tell CNN.

For nearly six months, Ukrainian forces have been going toe-to-toe with the Russians over roughly 36 miles of territory in Bakhmut, which lies between the separatist-held cities of Donetsk and Luhansk. Heavy shelling has left the city almost completely destroyed.

“It is a brutal and grinding fight,” a senior Western intelligence official said last week, with each side exchanging anywhere from 100-400 meters of land per day and exchanging several thousands of artillery rounds almost daily. “[Bakhmut] is less attractive militarily, in terms of any sort of infrastructure, than it might have been if it had not been this destroyed.”

Now, ahead of what is widely expected to be a brutal spring of fighting, there is a tactical opening, US and Western officials say. In recent weeks they have begun suggesting that Ukrainian forces cut their losses in Bakhmut, which they argue has little strategic significance for Ukraine, and focus instead on planning an offensive in the south.

That was part of a message delivered by three top Biden officials who traveled to Kyiv last week.

In a meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, deputy national security adviser Jon Finer, Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman, and Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl, said the US wants to help Ukraine shift away from the sort of pitched battle of attrition playing out in Bakhmut and focus instead on a style of mechanized maneuver warfare that uses rapid, unanticipated movements against Russia, sources familiar with their discussion said.

The hundreds of armored vehicles the US and European countries have provided to Ukraine in recent weeks, including 14 British tanks, are meant to help Ukraine make that shift, officials said.

The US and its allies want Ukraine to change its battlefield tactics in the spring | CNN Politics

Originally Posted by sabang

US and Western officials are urging Ukraine to shift its focus from the brutal, months-long fight in the eastern city of Bakhmut and prioritize instead a potential offensive in the south, using a different style of fighting that takes advantage of the billions of dollars in new military hardware recently committed by Western allies, US and Ukrainian officials tell CNN.

The southern offensive is coming and Melitopol will be liberated. The weather turned out to be unseasonably warm this year, delaying the winter offensive. But it is coming, whether it is next month or in the spring.

More great news...

The Biden administration is leaning toward sending “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, two U.S. officials said, and an announcement could come as early as Wednesday.

The development comes amid a public standoff with German officials, who are under pressure to send their own Leopard tanks and allow other European countries that operate the German-made vehicles to do so as well.

On Tuesday, shortly after news broke of the possible U.S. move, POLITICO reported that German Chancellor Olaf Scholz also plans to announce that German Leopards are heading to Ukraine. Last week, Scholz told U.S. lawmakers that Berlin would approve the transfer only if the U.S. donated its own tanks first.

The transfer of U.S. and German tanks would mark a major development in the West’s effort to arm Ukraine. Top Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, have spent weeks pleading for tanks as Kyiv prepares for fresh Russian offensives in the country’s east.

One of the two U.S. officials said the Biden administration is considering sending around 30 Abrams tanks.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin at a meeting this week recommended to President Joe Biden that the U.S. should send Abrams to Ukraine, a third U.S. official said, though it’s unclear if the commander in chief has made a final decision.

Another U.S. official said the deal is getting done in order to maintain “alliance unity, paves the way for Leopards and added capability for Ukraine. Good outcome.”

“Training and delivery takes time,” this person added, “so, yes, might as well get started.”

The decision marks a sharp reversal for the U.S., which has argued in public against sending Abrams tanks, saying they’re too expensive and require too much maintenance.

The Pentagon never took tanks off the table, said another U.S. official, who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the matter ahead of an announcement. But in recent weeks, U.S. officials have said the Abrams made little operational sense for Ukraine at this moment because they guzzle jet fuel and require long supply lines to maintain.

“The Abrams tank is a very complicated piece of equipment. It’s expensive, it’s hard to train on. It has a jet engine, I think it’s about three gallons to the mile of jet fuel. It is not the easiest system to maintain,” Colin Kahl, the Pentagon’s top policy official, told reporters last week after a trip to Kyiv. “It may or may not be the right system.”

The vehicles would likely come through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, according to another person familiar with the issue. The program allows Washington to finance the purchase of weapons and equipment for Ukraine, as opposed to pulling them from existing U.S. stockpiles.

The developments come after weeks of tense discussions between Washington, Berlin and their European allies. Since Scholz met with U.S. lawmakers last week, the German government has shifted its stance, at one point denying it had linked the transfers of the Abrams and Leopards.

A parade of Democrats and Republicans has pressured the Biden administration to grant Berlin’s request to send U.S. tanks first.

If the Germans continue to say we will only send or release Leopards on the condition that Americans send Abrams, we should send Abrams,” Sen. Chris Coons (D-Del.), a close Biden ally, told POLITICO moments before Sky News Arabia first broke news of the decision on Tuesday.

The M1 Abrams tanks currently in the U.S. Army’s motor pools would first need to be stripped of sensitive communications and other equipment before being sent to Ukraine, making it an expensive and time-consuming process.

A handful of countries operate less modern versions of the Abrams, including Australia, Iraq, Egypt, Kuwait and Morocco, while Poland has 250 on order slated to begin arriving in 2024.

Egypt by far has the most Abrams tanks in service, with over 1,000 older M1A1 models as the result of a decades-long co-production deal with the United States.

U.S. closer to approving ‘significant number’ of Abrams tanks to Ukraine - POLITICO

US special operators borrowed a unique part of Army Green Beret training to prepare Ukrainians to fight Russia

In 2014, Russia seized Crimea and large swaths of the Donbas in eastern Ukraine, setting off a long-running conflict between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed fighters in the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Eight years later, that low-intensity conflict escalated into a full-scale war, after Russian President Vladimir Putin sent his troops into Ukraine in late February 2022 to topple the government and install a new one under Moscow's influence.

During the intervening eight years, the US and its NATO allies were instrumental in helping Ukraine prepare to fight off that invasion, providing security assistance, intelligence, and military training.

In September, the leaders of US Special Operations Command Europe described how the Ukrainian military adjusted and evolved after the initial Russian invasion and how US special operators borrowed a unique part of US Army Green Beret training to prepare their Ukrainian counterparts to fight Russia.

Ukraine's 'Q' course

Following Russia's 2014 invasion, the US military created the Joint Multinational Training Group-Ukraine, which brought conventional and special-operations troops from across NATO to train Ukraine's military in modern war-fighting methods.

That training created a corps of professional troops with which Ukraine is now beating back the Russians. Although there was some staff-level training on how to fight a large conventional conflict, most of the training concerned tactical-level operations, including small-arms proficiency, marksmanship, close-quarters combat, and patrolling.

"I think one of the key programs we created was a Q course, a force-generation model for Ukrainian [special-operations forces] much like US Army Special Forces and their Q course," Navy Command Master Chief Peter Musselman, the senior enlisted leader at Special Operations Command Europe, said during a New America event in September.

The "Q course," officially called the US Army Special Forces Qualification Course, assesses and teaches Green Beret candidates the basics of their profession. Special Operations Command Europe — working through the US Army's 10th Special Forces Group, which is responsible for Europe — developed the course for their Ukrainian troops.

"The Q course puts unique pressure on teams and individuals. Aside from the world-class training, it truly helps to identify and select the best of the best," John Black, a retired Army Green Beret warrant officer, told Insider.

Lasting anywhere from 56 to 95 weeks, depending on the Green Beret's military occupational specialty, Q Course includes unconventional warfare, small unit tactics, and Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape training. It culminates with Robin Sage, a large-scale realistic exercise that puts all the skills into action.

The elements of Q Course that the Ukrainians have incorporated into their selection and assessment process allow the instructors to choose the best troops. For students who go through the training, the course offers them the opportunity to perform their best under stress and pressure, Black said.

"Being able to closely look at the individuals going through the course, then identify and select the best from that pool, is incredible. This is why the Ukrainian [special-operations force] is as strong as they are and able to handle their current conflict," Black added.

The relationships that US troops built with their Ukrainian counterparts during that period are now making it much easier to advise and assist the Ukrainians on the ground.

US Air Force Maj. Gen. Steven Edwards, commander of Special Operations Command Europe, said the Ukrainians have been "very successful" in fighting the Russians and that their success is "truly a testament to the quality of training" provided by NATO special operators.

Remote train and assist

Ukrainian special operators have been put their training to use by ambushing Russian armored columns, conducting long-range reconnaissance, and by generally augmenting Ukraine's conventional forces on the frontline. But the war has affected the level of interaction that US and Ukrainian operators have been able to have since 2014.

Musselman, a Navy SEAL, said American special operators have had to advise their Ukrainian counterparts from a distance since Russia launched its renewed attack.

"Where previously we were able to interact with our Ukrainian partners on a daily basis, we now find ourselves having to communicate via remote devices, telephones, computers," Musselman said. "So that adds another level of complexity."

Edwards acknowledged that some NATO militaries still have special operators in Ukraine, though strictly in an advisory role, and that US special operators "rely heavily on them" to understand the situation on the ground.

US Special Operations Command doesn't have an official presence in Ukraine and has adopted a "remote advise and assist" role there, but it is safe to assume that US special operators have some sort of footprint in the country — likely through US intelligence agencies — to help Ukrainians with their training and logistical challenges.

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-d...ans-2023-1?amp

Originally Posted by pickel

You may be right about Ukraine ceding a bit of land in negotiations

It's taken a while but you're getting there.

Originally Posted by Iceman123

It's taken a while but you're getting there.

Getting where? I said "may", not "are". Do you have a crystal ball? It doesn't mean I think they should capitulate, like you do. It also means I don't think the war is unwinnable. Plenty of factors at play still, and most are in Ukraines favor. But you can keep on waivin' the white flag, it won't make a difference to the Ukrainians.

Originally Posted by sabang

Whoopee, a few thousand more dead people!

Of course you'd rejoice at that.


Now, if only Russia would not have invaded . . . how few deaths would there have been? sabang would have been sad.

Originally Posted by Norton

No question the Leopards are superior to Russian tanks. Numbers count so it remains to be seen how much difference the Leopards will do.

i don't expect to see much tank on tank action, but we'll certainly see how the chobham and Leopard armour is against anti tank munitions

A year after the invasion, Ukraine is riddled with Russian collaborators and sympathizers.


JANUARY 17, 2023, 3:06 PM

KHERSON, Ukraine—The sound of incoming and outgoing fire was almost constant as the older woman paused for a moment near Kherson’s main hospital, a shopping cart with several water bottles that she had just filled up at the riverbank of the Dnipro resting by her side.

“It was better when the Russians were here,” she said, and either way, “Crimea rightfully belongs to Russia.” She kept on, praising Putin, declining to share her name or to be photographed, and explaining that, at 75, she was still “young at heart” as several Ukrainian soldiers gathered around her. A missile hit nearby, loud and clear, and then another one. Moments later, the woman was off, pulling her two-wheeled cart along—and the soldiers had, in the meantime, already informed the police.

“Anyone can be a Russian collaborator or traitor—age, gender, or background doesn’t matter,” explained Maj. Serhiy Tsehotsky of the 59th Motorized Brigade, adding that it’s the police’s job, not the army’s, to “find out where she lives, who she talks to, and whether she’s involved in illegal activities.”

“The key collaborators have gotten out of Kherson, but many remain,” he said.

Informants, traitors, and collaborators have supported Russia in fighting Ukraine from the start. They have helped geolocate targets throughout the country and even managed to infiltrate the government. Thousands have been detained in the past year; hundreds of court cases have been opened.

“Russian agents are everywhere: in the government, the judicial system, the church. They are members of parliament, judges, priests, and of course civilians,” said Iryna Fedoriv, the editor in chief of Chesno, a Kyiv-based nonprofit that has operated in Ukraine for the past decade and has, since the start of the full-scale invasion, exposed more than 1,000 collaborators—of whom 47 percent are politicians and 27 percent judges.

“Collaborators have infiltrated the entire system—the police, the courts, even the government—and while many people have been detained, many fewer cases have been sent to court,” she explained.

“That’s because the system is rotten and corrupt. We urgently need to reform it. We still have members of parliament from pro-Russian parties. We have pro-Russian judges. Why do we keep them there? We need to get rid of them. Otherwise, we’re destroying our own country.”



A wintry street scene in Kyiv, Ukraine. Residents say Russian collaborators can be found anywhere.A street scene in Kyiv on Nov. 30, 2022. Residents say Russian collaborators can be found anywhere—in every city, the church, the courts.

While there have been drastic changes since the start of last year’s invasion, Russian influence remains deeply ingrained in many parts of Ukraine, which was part of the Soviet Union for nearly 70 years, from 1922 until 1991. The Kremlin’s ideology still largely regards Ukraine as a historical part of Russia. People throughout eastern Ukraine have traditionally spoken Russian—even though many have now switched to Ukrainian—and Russian propaganda television channels have largely been available, watched predominantly by the older population. Even Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s famous television show, Servant of the People, aired with the majority of characters speaking Russian. But historical ties between people in eastern Ukraine, particularly, and Russia have been reappraised since the 2013-14 Maidan Revolution—and especially since the start of Russia’s full-bore invasion last year.

Former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who was ousted during the revolution, consistently opted for close ties with Russia during his term and now lives there in exile. In recent years, more than 15 pro-Russian political parties have been prohibited throughout Ukraine.

Even the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) needs to be “cleansed of moles and traitors,” spokesperson Artem Dekhtiarenko admitted, saying the agency had given special importance to this.

“There are enemy agents in the highest authorities and among high-ranking officials, unfortunately,” he said, pointing to some of the SBU’s recent successes.
Since last February, the SBU’s investigators have initiated around 2,500 criminal proceedings based on signs of collaborative activity, detained 600 enemy agents and spies, and neutralized more than 4,500 cyberattacks and incidents on state institutions—three times more than in the previous year. A man who had provided the Russians with information about critical infrastructure facilities in the Donetsk region and who had tried to geolocate Ukrainian rocket launchers was recently sentenced to 12 and a half year in prison.

In two other cases, the head of a directorate of the Ukrainian Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the head of a unit of the Secretariat of the Cabinet of Ministers were detained in Kyiv; both had passed intelligence to Russia regarding Ukraine’s defense capabilities as well as personal data of Ukrainian law enforcement officers.

“Finding collaborators, Russian spies, and agents is constant work and one of our main priorities. We work with the local population. We find witnesses of war crimes and listen to people who tell us about traitors and collaborators from among local residents,” said Dekhtiarenko, the SBU spokesperson.

Throughout the country, and especially in recently liberated cities such as Kherson, posters encourage the civilian population to help.

“Do you know about a collaborator or traitor? Inform us,” a newly placed ad reads at the entrance to Kherson. Most civilians have a story about a collaborator they have come across: a neighbor who was sharing Russian propaganda on social networks or a co-worker accused of spying. And while some cases of collaboration are obvious, many people’s agendas are hidden.

At Kherson Regional Children’s Hospital, head doctor Inna Holodnyak spoke of her “pain and disappointment” when she discovered that one of her longtime trusted colleagues and a well-regarded doctor turned out to be a collaborator. “He was the only doctor at the hospital who chose to work with the Russians. He even handed them all our health documents,” she said, adding that he has since escaped into Russian-occupied territory.

At the start of Kherson’s occupation, Holodnyak had about 300 patients at the hospital. Today, only a few children remain—including cancer patients who haven’t been able to receive their treatment. Most others were evacuated when the Russians first arrived. Today, electricity, water, and medicine are still scarce.

Holodnyak refused to collaborate when the Russians approached her, knowing that the decision could cost her life. She spent several months in hiding after it had become too dangerous to work at the clinic, but she was back in her office as soon as the city had been liberated. “I’ve since had to admit to myself that Russian collaborators are everywhere: in every workplace, every city. It’s difficult to trust anyone,” she said.

“There’s a lot of work to be done,” said Fedoriv of Chesno. While her organization remains an independent watchdog, since the start of the full-scale invasion it has occasionally worked directly with the police and the country’s intelligence agency.

“We remain critical of the government, but we also need to work with them. Times are different now. This is war—and we all need to fight together.”

Russian Collaborators, Sympathizers Abound in Ukraine

Originally Posted by malmomike77

i don't expect to see much tank on tank action

Why should there be, it was well established in Iraq that The 120 mm gun the Leopard shares with the Abrams can kill the T-72 from outside the range of its own main gun. We will see mostly see tank dying action rather than tank on tank action.

Originally Posted by bsnub

We will see mostly see tank dying action rather than tank on tank action.

I expect the Russians to engage with Anti tank weapons so it'll come down to what they have in that dept. and how the NATO tank armour performs - you calling the shots this early is as usual a bit silly

Doesn't take much to disable a tank. Allah Akbar-

By March 2005, approximately 80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks

(Operation Desert Storm)

when the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant launched the June 2014 Northern Iraq offensive. During three months, about one-third of the Iraqi Army's M1 tanks had been damaged or destroyed by ISIL and some were captured by opposing forces. By December 2014, the Iraqi Army only had about 40 operational Abrams left.

M1 Abrams - Wikipedia

Originally Posted by malmomike77

you calling the shots this early is as usual a bit silly

Nope. Just pointing out the facts with historical precedent.

Originally Posted by sabang

(Operation Desert Storm)

That was in, not 2005. Desert Storm was in 1991.

Originally Posted by sabang

By March 2005, approximately 80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks

During urban warfare in Iraq. The Ukrainians will not be using them like that. The problems the tanks had were resolved with an upgrade. Apples to oranges.

Vulnerabilities exposed during urban combat in the Iraq War were addressed with the Tank Urban Survival Kit (TUSK) modifications, including armor upgrades and a gun shield, issued to some M1 Abrams tanks. It added protection in the rear and side of the tank and improved fighting ability and survival ability in urban environments.^[46] By December 2006 more than 530 Abrams tanks had been shipped back to the U.S. for repairs and upgrades.^[47]

Originally Posted by sabang

when the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant launched the June 2014 Northern Iraq offensive. During three months, about one-third of the Iraqi Army's M1 tanks had been damaged or destroyed by ISIL and some were captured by opposing forces. By December 2014, the Iraqi Army only had about 40 operational Abrams left.

Operated by Iraqis, FFS.

Apologies, a longish read but gives a quite detailed update on the Tank situation.

Hammer blow for Vladimir Putin as Ukraine to get 200 tanks from West

Kyiv to become the ‘real punching fist of democracy’ after breakthrough donations from Germany

Germany has finally relented to international pressure, agreeing to donate some of its Leopard 2 tanks

The West is poised to send nearly 200 battle tanks to Ukraine in a potential hammer blow that could help Kyiv win its war against Vladimir Putin.

It came after Germany finally succumbed to weeks of international pressure and agreed to donate some of its Leopard 2 tanks.

Berlin also relented on allowing other countries, such as Poland, to re-export German-made Leopard 2s, which could happen within days.

Meanwhile, the United States dropped its opposition to sending M1 Abrams tanks - potentially dozens of them - in a major escalation of its involvement.

The UK has already become the first ally to pledge tanks to Ukraine, having said it would send 14 of its Challenger 2s.

Under international agreements, other countries must be granted permission by Berlin to send their Leopard 2s.

Officials in Kyiv have suggested a dozen nations were willing to donate a total of up to 100 of them, if given permission by the German government.

Germany itself was reportedly preparing to send 14 tanks, with Olaf Scholz, the country’s chancellor, expected to make an announcement as soon as Wednesday.

“Today, the chancellor made a decision that no one took lightly,” said Christian Duerr, parliamentary leader of the co-governing Free Democrats. “The fact that Germany will support Ukraine with the Leopard tank is a strong sign of solidarity.”

US officials suggested their plans were being finalised, with options to send up to 50 Abrams. An announcement is expected later this week.

It brought the total number of tanks Kyiv can expect to have at its disposal to nearly 200, with potential for more.

Meanwhile, Switzerland, which has a long-held tradition of neutrality, appeared to be moving towards allowing other countries to re-export Swiss-made weapons to Ukraine - including Piranha tanks and anti-aircraft guns.

Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, has long pleaded for tanks, which would be key to punching through Russian defences in a Ukrainian counter-offensive to regain its territory.

Andriy Yermak, his chief of staff, said: “This is going to become a real punching fist of democracy against the autocracy from the bog."

Kirill Mikhailov, a Kyiv-based military researcher, told The Telegraph that deliveries of tanks on that scale could "change the course of the war".

He said: “We’ve already passed the end of the beginning. What you need now is to be able to replenish the Ukrainians to the point where the Russians will constantly be on the retreat.”

He said the US would be likely to settle on 50 Abrams, adding: "It is the minimum that makes sense logistically on the battlefield."

Sending less would mean the Abrams’ "usefulness would outweigh their strain on logistics chains".

The developments resolved a period of protracted friction over the issue of sending tanks, which had exposed a diplomatic rift in the Western alliance.

US officials had maintained that Abrams tanks were unsuitable for use in Ukraine because they are difficult to operate and maintain, require extensive training and need frequent refuelling.

They have long believed Germany's Leopard 2s were a better fit, because they have interchangeable parts and are easy to maintain.

However, Mr Scholz had refused to allow their use, saying Berlin would not "go alone".

The White House and Pentagon were caught off guard by the strength of the German reluctance.

No agreement was reached in a meeting of 50 Allied defence ministers at the US air base in Ramstein, Germany, on Friday.

But following intense behind-the-scenes negotiations, including one senior US official reportedly "reading the riot act" to his German counterpart, a transatlantic tank deal appeared to have been struck.

US officials cautioned that there had been no final decision in Washington, but their position was softening and a "significant" number of Abrams could now be sent.

Shortly before the German and US reversals emerged, Chris Coons, a Democrat senator and a close ally of Joe Biden, the US president, told Politico: "If the Germans continue to say we will only send or release Leopards on the condition that Americans send Abrams, we should send Abrams."

It could take months to deliver the 70-ton Abrams tanks and train Ukrainian forces in how to use them.

However, the change in US position appears to have helped to unlock the German resistance.

Mateusz Morawiecki, Poland’s prime minister, called on Berlin "not to procrastinate, not to delay, but just to take brave decisions".

He said Berlin's longstanding purchases of Russian energy meant they had a "special responsibility" in the conflict.

In a further sign of a break in the deadlock, Berlin suggested that nations willing to donate their Leopards could begin training Ukrainian crews.

It came as Jens Stoltenberg, Nato’s secretary-general - who was meeting Boris Pistorius, the German defence minister, for talks in Berlin - said he was "confident" of a tank deal.

Hammer blow for Vladimir Putin as Ukraine to get 200 tanks from West

Originally Posted by malmomike77

But following intense behind-the-scenes negotiations, including one senior US official reportedly "reading the riot act" to his German counterpart, a transatlantic tank deal appeared to have been struck.

I believe that was the 6'3" Defense Secretary and former General Lloyd Austin who was seen dressing down the German delegation.

Originally Posted by bsnub

I believe that was the 6'3" Defense Secretary and former General Lloyd Austin who was seen dressing down the German delegation.

you think that worried them? you'll note the US have met the German stipulation

in other news that article i posted also says the gnomes in Zurich are also getting involved

Originally Posted by malmomike77

you think that worried them? you'll note the US have met the German stipulation

Who knows, but I tool pleasure in seeing the Screws twist on Schultz. He really is a weak coont.

Originally Posted by malmomike77

in other news that article i posted also says the gnomes in Zurich are also getting involved

About time too...

Switzerland took a crucial step toward allowing other countries to re-export Swiss-made armaments to Ukraine.

The relevant committee of the parliament’s lower house on Tuesday adopted a motion that would allow for the re-export of weapons to conflict zones under certain conditions. The initiative was accepted with 14 to 11 votes, it said on Tuesday.

One of the next steps would be for the parliament’s entire lower house to decide.

The motion calls for allowing the Swiss government to revoke non-re-export clauses in agreements with other countries, if the weapons in question are to be shipped to a conflict which has been condemned as violating international law by a two-third majority of the United Nations General Assembly.

Traditionally neutral Switzerland has faced criticism from Germany and Spain over blocking shipments of Swiss-made ammunition to Ukraine.

The shift in parliament became possible after the Social Democrats gave up their firm stance. According to the committee, the decision doesn’t contradict neutrality because Switzerland wouldn’t ship arms directly to a conflict zone but would only allow other countries to do so.

“The majority of the committee is of the opinion that Switzerland must make its contribution to European security and accordingly provide more support to Ukraine,” lawmakers said in their statement.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Note however...

It could take months to deliver the 70-ton Abrams tanks and train Ukrainian forces in how to use them.