Air France cabin crew angered by ruling to wear headscarves in Tehran

**harrybarracuda** · 06-04-2016, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by taxexile

the time to cover up in order to show respect to islam will be when islamic visitors and immigrants to the west show respect and tolerance for western culture by adapting to the host culture rather than by demanding that their hosts adapt to the ways of islam.

Blame it on softy politicians that don't just say "If you don't like it, fuck off back to Shitistan".

**Neverna** · 06-04-2016, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by taxexile

the time to cover up in order to show respect to islam will be when islamic visitors and immigrants to the west show respect and tolerance for western culture by adapting to the host culture rather than by demanding that their hosts adapt to the ways of islam.

Do as we say and not as we do?

Anyway, the issue in this thread is, apparently, the laws of Iran and some AF crew not willing to follow them while in Iran.

**Black Heart** · 06-04-2016, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Neverna

Originally Posted by taxexile

the time to cover up in order to show respect to islam will be when islamic visitors and immigrants to the west show respect and tolerance for western culture by adapting to the host culture rather than by demanding that their hosts adapt to the ways of islam.

Do as we say and not as we do?

Anyway, the issue in this thread is, apparently, the laws of Iran and some AF crew not willing to follow them while in Iran.

But if they are not muslim, why should they follow this law?

**harrybarracuda** · 06-04-2016, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Black Heart

Originally Posted by Neverna

Originally Posted by taxexile

the time to cover up in order to show respect to islam will be when islamic visitors and immigrants to the west show respect and tolerance for western culture by adapting to the host culture rather than by demanding that their hosts adapt to the ways of islam.

Do as we say and not as we do?

Anyway, the issue in this thread is, apparently, the laws of Iran and some AF crew not willing to follow them while in Iran.

But if they are not muslim, why should they follow this law?

I'm not a Christian but in England I'm expected not to stab people by law.

Do you understand what laws are or are you completely fucking thick?

**BobR** · 07-04-2016, 12:22 AM

I was never a kiss ass at work, but if an employer asked me to do something that made their life easier and had no horrible effect on me, why not cooperate?

**Lukey1979** · 07-04-2016, 10:31 AM

Everyone seems adament about Muslims respecting the laws of the land and Western Culture by removing the Hijab/Burka, and later get outraged about Iran's own requirements. You gotta laugh.

**Jesus Jones** · 07-04-2016, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by ENT

Yet another French bend-over to Islam.

What is it with that country? Is it because nearly 10% of the population there are Islamic?
Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, all have 5 .10% Muslim populations, but France, Belgium, Germany and Sweden seem to be sabotaging their own cultures by incorporating more Islamic values.

Holland recently reversed his decision to strip terrorists of their citizenship. Why? Where's the pressure to conform to Islamic values coming from within France?

I hope those Air France trolley dollies stick together and refuse to bow to pre-medieval cultural values.

This is IRAN not France you dopey fucker.

Like all citizens, you are expected to comply with the laws of any country you visit, or pay the penalty.

My guess is these harlots don't want to go to Iran because it offers no opportunities for gratuitous sex and alcohol while on layovers.

And the shopping's shit (apart from the carpets, spices and caviar).

I guess the UK needs a few pointers!

**HermantheGerman** · 07-04-2016, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I'm not a Christian but in England I'm expected not to stab people by law.

Do you understand what laws are or are you completely fucking thick?

Laws made by the Prophet or old Mullahs make a lot of sense don't they?
- Let's not forget that the cabin crew can not be homosexuall because its is forbidden and can be punished with the death penalty in Iran.
- Let's not forget that the cabin crew can not be jewish. Showing signs like a chain with David Star or magazines written in hebrew can make it a one way ticket to paradise.

Do you understand what laws are ? Sharia Laws ?
According to your logic the Nuremberg Race Law must have been fine to then

**harrybarracuda** · 07-04-2016, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I'm not a Christian but in England I'm expected not to stab people by law.

Do you understand what laws are or are you completely fucking thick?

Laws made by the Prophet or old Mullahs make a lot of sense don't they?
- Let's not forget that the cabin crew can not be homosexuall because its is forbidden and can be punished with the death penalty in Iran.
- Let's not forget that the cabin crew can not be jewish. Showing signs like a chain with David Star or magazines written in hebrew can make it a one way ticket to paradise.

Do you understand what laws are ? Sharia Laws ?
According to your logic the Nuremberg Race Law must have been fine to then

Nice attempt at a sidetrack. However, the topic at hand is about women covering their head.

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple, and I don't hear you bleating about that like a fucking schoolgirl.

**AntRobertson** · 07-04-2016, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple, and I don't hear you bleating about that like a fucking schoolgirl.

Is there a way to link it to Mooslims? However tangentially or tenuously?

He would then.

**HermantheGerman** · 09-04-2016, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Nice attempt at a sidetrack. However, the topic at hand is about women covering their head.

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple, and I don't hear you bleating about that like a fucking schoolgirl.

Yes, its the law made by some old men (Mullahs) telling women what to do. If you think that is O.K. so be it. Just let me side track you a bit more.

A hungry donkey stands between two identical hay piles. The donkey always chooses whichever hay is closest to him. Both piles are exactly the same distance apart, one on his right, one on his left, and they are identical in every way. Which pile of hay will the donkey choose to eat?
He will be unable to choose and will starve to death in his paralysis.

A choice is what I call freedom and democracy. Islam is what I call being a donkey, unable to make own decisions because as you know it means "surrender". Surrender your freedom, rights and choice.

**ENT** · 09-04-2016, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple,..

Of course it's more offensive, dim-wit.

There's a vast difference between covering up before entering a place of worship and having to cover your head just to go shopping or to get to your accommodation from the airport.

**Looper** · 09-04-2016, 09:01 AM

The problem is that law and religion are too closely intertwined in Iran.

The head-covering is to do with islamic rules and customs.

The onus is on Iran to drag itself into the 21st century (or even the 20th century would be progress) and recognise that visitors may not share their views on religion so they should not be forced by law to follow Islamic religious customs.

If laws are forcing religious customs on non-religious people then those laws are wrong.

**ENT** · 09-04-2016, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Looper

The problem is that law and religion are too closely intertwined in Iran.

The head-covering is to do with islamic rules and customs.

If laws are forcing religious customs on non-religious people then those laws are wrong.

Islam has forced religious customs on non-religious ever since it started.

The veil/scarf is not a requirement in Islam, but a cultural overlay adhered to by some and ignored by other Muslims.

This latest demand by Iran's mad Mullahs is a political stunt.

**harrybarracuda** · 09-04-2016, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple,..

Of course it's more offensive, dim-wit.

There's a vast difference between covering up before entering a place of worship and having to cover your head just to go shopping or to get to your accommodation from the airport.

Really? So given your in depth understanding of Islam, please explain what that vast difference is.

So you don't mind it if it's from your accommodation to the mosque?

**ENT** · 09-04-2016, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple,..

Of course it's more offensive, dim-wit.

There's a vast difference between covering up before entering a place of worship and having to cover your head just to go shopping or to get to your accommodation from the airport.

Really? So given your in depth understanding of Islam, please explain what that vast difference is.

So you don't mind it if it's from your accommodation to the mosque?

There's a difference between being in a mosque to travelling there.

Once entering the mosque, respect for the mosque as a place of worship may be signified by covering up.

On the street, one is in a public place of trade and commerce, not a place of religious worship that demands such extreme respect.

Some Xtian sects (and Jews) also expect head covering as a norm in their churches, or at least 'modest' dress, no matter what one's religious inclination.

Some of those religious cover their heads as a daily norm in public, at least, but they don't expect all others to cover their heads in public, there's no popular consultation nor agreement to make such a demand lawful.

Law is not simply a dictat handed down without consultation with the people, by the powers that be, without reasonable justification.

In this Iranian case, however, the Paulinian advice is to "..do in Rome as the Romans do...", simply to avoid conflict with the supposedly enlightened local authorities, "..as what is lawful is (ideally) decided between person and person...", another Paulinian definition that's become part of the basis of democracy (which is an ideal, not a norm) and English and international law.

There's nothing in Islam that demands such extreme dress codes, only that one dresses modestly.

But the mullahs rule in Iran, so by their very much non-democratic system of rule, one must " do in Iran as the Iranians do..", as dictated.

An uncomfortable situation for many living under such (or any) dictatorship.

Bear in mind, though, that Islam is a politicized religion where the secular is bound almost inextricably with the religious.

**BobR** · 09-04-2016, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The fact is that it's the law of the land and I don't think it's any more offensive than Thais asking you to cover up when you go to the temple,..

Of course it's more offensive, dim-wit.

There's a vast difference between covering up before entering a place of worship and having to cover your head just to go shopping or to get to your accommodation from the airport.

It's not all that foreign, I was raised Catholic in the US and until well into the 1970's girls and women were expected to cover their heads to enter a Catholic Church.

**ENT** · 09-04-2016, 11:43 AM

Us non-conformists were luckier, eh?

As a probable lapsed Catholic, here's something for ya,...

**OhOh** · 09-04-2016, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by ENT

Yet another French bend-over to Islam. What is it with that country? Is it because nearly 10% of the population there are Islamic?

The Iranian people, through their elected representatives, decide the laws which apply to ALL, within Iran. If you do not agree with a countries laws do not go there. Simple.

Or are you suggesting one law for some and the "exceptional" are allowed to disregard a countries laws?

Originally Posted by ENT

I hope those Air France trolley dollies stick together and refuse to bow to pre-medieval cultural values.

AS shown below an alternative is already in place.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

This is IRAN not France you dopey fucker. Like all citizens, you are expected to comply with the laws of any country you visit, or pay the penalty.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by Roobarb

Yup, agree with that. The European Court of Human Rights upheld France's 'Burqa ban' as, in spite of the the claim that it was "inhumane and degrading, against the right of respect for family and private life, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, freedom of speech and discriminatory", the court agreed with the French Government in that it was a law designed to help citizens "live together".

Excellent.

Originally Posted by ENT

they don't want to wear the headscarf when they leave the plane, they would be reassigned to another destination."

An excellent management decision, agreed no doubt with the employees union and in full compliance with French and EU laws.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Its not a big secret that employess of islamic airlines (Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc.) are being treated like shit.

Only those airlines eh?

Originally Posted by taxexile

the time to cover up in order to show respect to islam will be when islamic visitors and immigrants to the west show respect and tolerance for western culture by adapting to the host culture rather than by demanding that their hosts adapt to the ways of islam.

"Adapting" to the country one wants to visit eh? There is no "adapting". If you don't have a visa, a passport, accept the SOP of the airline you do not get passed check-in. One suspects that without agreeing to the "demands", one would not be allowed on a plane to those countries.

Originally Posted by Black Heart

But if they are not muslim, why should they follow this law?

It's Iranian law.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

A choice is what I call freedom and democracy. Islam is what I call being a donkey, unable to make own decisions because as you know it means "surrender". Surrender your freedom, rights and choice.

The donkeys/sheeple exist only in Iran?

Originally Posted by Looper

The onus is on Iran to drag itself into the 21st century (or even the 20th century would be progress) and recognise that visitors may not share their views on religion so they should not be forced by law to follow Islamic religious customs. If laws are forcing religious customs on non-religious people then those laws are wrong

Get a law passed in Iran and you are OK. Until then don't go to Iran, or you may be thrown in to a prison for an unlimited duration, without knowing the reason and without a trial. Some "exceptional" countries have this method in place as we type.

Originally Posted by ENT

Islam has forced religious customs on non-religious ever since it started.

BobR's post indicates it's not an Isalmic only "cultural practice", backed by a law.

Originally Posted by BobR

It's not all that foreign, I was raised Catholic in the US and until well into the 1970's girls and women were expected to cover their heads to enter a Catholic Church.

Don't ever, ever forget it's only Iran who impose their own Iranian laws on foreigners, wishing to travel to Iran.

Let's keep TD free from the religious ranters.

**Neverna** · 09-04-2016, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by Looper

The problem is that law and religion are too closely intertwined in Iran.

The head-covering is to do with islamic rules and customs.

If laws are forcing religious customs on non-religious people then those laws are wrong.

The veil/scarf is not a requirement in Islam, but a cultural overlay adhered to by some and ignored by other Muslims.

So you disagree with Looper on this point. You say it's not a religious requirement but a cultural overlay. Therefore it seems the law protects their culture. Cultural protection to help preserve heritage. Awesome. But not unique.

**Neverna** · 09-04-2016, 12:32 PM

A revolution in the making?

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35988134

Tourists join bareheaded protest against Iranian clothing laws

Wearing the hijab is a legal requirement for women in Iran. But a controversial Facebook campaign is calling on female tourists visiting the country to post pictures of themselves removing the garment.

The campaign is the work of My Stealthy Freedom, an online movement which is no stranger to this particular act of defiance. Almost two years ago BBC Trending reported on the group's launch, since then the campaign has posted dozens of photos of Iranian women risking arrest by going out in public without the religious head covering.

But its latest request comes in response to the plight of a group of female crew members at a French airline.

When it was announced that Air France would begin flying into Tehran after an eight year hiatus, a number of the female crew demanded the right to opt-out of working on the new route. Why? Well many objected to an internal memo asking them to wear a hijab when disembarking the plane in the Iranian capital.

The crew members have now won the battle. On Monday Air France announced it would allow its female staff to be reassigned to other flights, should they not wish to fly to Iran.

In support of the their concerns, My Stealthy Freedom asked all female visitors to Iran to remove their headscarves and send in photographs - and many have obliged. Their images have been shared tens of thousands of times online.

Along with their pictures the women sent in messages of support for women in Iran. "Your government tries to keep you little in the name of God! They try to keep you silent, but you have so much to say!" wrote one. "It's a pity that not only these amazing people, but also tourists like me are having the mandatory hijab imposed. I am annoyed that I can't express myself truly," said another

Another woman posted a picture of herself with the caption: "‪‬Iran is beautiful and Iranian people are wonderful. Great hospitality and a strong desire for freedom and peace. Wearing the compulsory hijab gave me a terrible feeling of slavery. I didn't feel free to be what I am, which is horrible. For me, it was only 22 days of my life. For you, you always have to wear it!"

Masih Alinejad, who created the My Stealthy Freedom movement confirms that all the women featured have now left the country.

She told BBC Trending that she started this latest iteration of the campaign because she felt the Air France debate showed the matter was not just confined to Iranian women. "When the issue of the veil applies to all non-Iranian women in the Islamic Republic, then it is a global issue. I think all women who are not happy to be forced to wear the hijab, should stand together and talk about it."

**HermantheGerman** · 09-04-2016, 12:43 PM

^

Good post ! I hope there won't be a Fatwah issued against you

Your Love for Islam is stronger then women rights.

**HermantheGerman** · 09-04-2016, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by OhOh

The Iranian people, through their elected representatives, decide the laws which apply to ALL, within Iran. If you do not agree with a countries laws do not go there. Simple.

How can I discuss headscarfs with you, if you don't even know how democracy works.
Are you trolling, dumb or a muslim ?

**ENT** · 09-04-2016, 12:54 PM

Nervy's treading on thin ice, as this isn't a Dog House thread, it's open to the public.

So what would your Muslim pals ya have a chin wag with down at your local mosque, as you mentioned, think of your 'revolutionary' un-Islamic post, Nervy?

**OhOh** · 09-04-2016, 01:01 PM

I am dumb, please enlighten me regarding the many forms of "democracy" instituted around the globe and how the Iranian version is somehow unacceptable to you.

A dissenting voice in this forum is unacceptable, just to you or the forum owners?

Prove to me, if able, that your opinion is not an "exceptionalist" viewpoint and thus are globally accepted FACTS?

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