Face

**Smeg** · 21-09-2006, 10:31 PM

This social disease, along with Thai's inability to run a democracy (Mr Taksin "corruption crusher" using this as a smokescreen for his own corruption etc) kill Thailand's chances of being regarded as a mature society of intelligent considerate people.

What can be done, or is no change required?

**NickA** · 21-09-2006, 10:37 PM

^Maybe they should all support Millwall, I mean you don't meet a more mature scoiety of intelligent considerate people than the home crowd at the New Den on a Saturday afternoon.

As long as they don't fuck up and support Cardiff. Cardiff are real scum and the supporters know little of modern literature or opera, in fact I would go so far to say that they are complete ****s. Millwall are cool though.

I'm from Crewe.

I thank you.

Geoff.

diaw · 21-09-2006, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Smeg

This social disease, along with Thai's inability to run a democracy (Mr Taksin "corruption crusher" using this as a smokescreen for his own corruption etc) kill Thailand's chances of being regarded as a mature society of intelligent considerate people.

What can be done, or is no change required?

Though Taksin's face was bleedin' ugly... even when he smiled... would've losing face would have been a bonus...

**Little Chuchok** · 21-09-2006, 11:09 PM

are talking about the concept of "face" in Asian society in general, or just Thailand?

**friscofrankie** · 21-09-2006, 11:14 PM

"face" folks make a big deal of it. There is some sort of "face" concept in any society. Really can;t see why people are so shocked and have such a difficult time understanding the concept just because what coinstitues "face" in Asian, or Thai, is slightly different than in their own. Different culture different units of measure. "Face" is not unique to Asians.

**DJ Pat** · 21-09-2006, 11:20 PM

Face is a bigger issue in other countries....like Thailand

**Silent Ninja** · 21-09-2006, 11:28 PM

In Europe people don't lie that much in order to save face, but they sure do in Thailand.

**Camel Toe** · 21-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by friscofrankie

"face" folks make a big deal of it. There is some sort of "face" concept in any society. Really can;t see why people are so shocked and have such a difficult time understanding the concept just because what coinstitues "face" in Asian, or Thai, is slightly different than in their own. Different culture different units of measure. "Face" is not unique to Asians.

There's the answer I was looking for. Face, pride, honour, all comes down to the same thing. It's not such a bad feature, after all we represent something in life, be it family, country, culture, whatever. In Thailand it seems they go too far at times but then you have to ask: How many have died in the name of honour and pride in our history? Millions. If it's worth dying for it must be valuable.

**Little Chuchok** · 21-09-2006, 11:41 PM

^^ try Singapore then.Those kunts are NEVER wrong.

**daveboy** · 21-09-2006, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by NickA

Millwall are cool though.

No there not

**friscofrankie** · 21-09-2006, 11:45 PM

In Europe people don't lie that much in order to save face, but they sure do in Thailand.

They lie about their sexual powress, The stability of their marriage. They lie about their earning power or importance on the job. People lie to create "Face." In parts of western society they kill to "save face" Folks buy cars and homes they can't afford, The list goes on and on. The manner in which western society gfoes about creating and saving "face" may have differences. Believing that Western, or European, etc. societies are not concerned with "face" is just walking around with blinders on.

**ChiangMai noon** · 21-09-2006, 11:48 PM

I'm in serious danger of greening you Frankie.
I shall strive to resist the temptation.

**man with no head** · 21-09-2006, 11:56 PM

^^Is it really the same though? That sounds more like 'keeping up with the Jones' syndrome.'

I don't think non-Asians take it to the extreme as Asians do. Face quite literally in Asia is face. You can be the most piss-poor person in a village yet do something which makes you have a bigger 'face' than the most wealthiest person living there. It's sort of the social equivalent to Buddhist merit making. Take Chinese for example. When they marry the wedding banquet is supposed to be the biggest affair ever...regardless of the income level of the family giving the banquet. The reason? Because it makes them look important by throwing a huge dinner for hundreds of people.

It's a combination of many things: honor, dignity, pride, and stature, but, unlike the OP here I think it's fine. If I throw a party and all the people invited leave with a better impression of me then so what? Every society has some characteristic that some members will always take to extreme.

**Little Chuchok** · 21-09-2006, 11:59 PM

^ yep ,it's the same only different.

**ChiangMai noon** · 21-09-2006, 11:59 PM

I think it is the same.
The average British wedding runs at 12,000 pounds yet the average British family doesn't have that for a one day jolly.
Same, with a different name.

**friscofrankie** · 22-09-2006, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by surasak

That sounds more like 'keeping up with the Jones' syndrome.'

And that sounds like western-centric thinking

.
Labeling something you've grown up with as differnt from what you have little experience with. Same shit different slant.
"Keeping up with the Joneses," "Saving Face" What's the fuckin difference?

**man with no head** · 22-09-2006, 01:44 AM

I suppose my viewpoint comes from about 15 years of experience with 'face' in regards to people from China and Taiwan. Just hard to explain, but, fundamentally I think it's not exactly the same as in the West or from my experience in Thailand. For Chinese face is mostly characterized by either gain or loss of moral authority (lian) and stature within society (mianzi) and not so related to how much material wealth one has (though, with the modernization of China that's changing...find you some older Chinese in China or Taiwan and you will see the way it used to be regarding 'face'). Buying a new house won't necessarily give one face, but, throwing a housewarming party would. Outmaneuvering a business opponent in negotiations would give more face than would being president of a company. Avoiding disclosing embarassing facts about someone else would let one gain face while disclosing them would cause the discloser to lose face. Losing one's temper would result in a loss of face while being gracious in defeat would cause one to gain face.

In short I think it can be summed up more as 'worring what other people think about me' syndome and I seriously doubt it exists in the West to the extreme to which it's taken in Asia (though, yeah, of course some people in the West are just that shallow).

My experience regarding my wife and other Thais is the Thai concept of face is inherently different and I have yet to fully reach conclusions about it.

Me? I don't give two shits what other people think and if I'm angry or displeased I won't hide it just to save 'face.'

I think people who worry too much about face are inherently untrustworthy and undependable.

**Little Chuchok** · 22-09-2006, 02:39 AM

I have known many Chinese that have a very, very similar concept of face as Thais.

Eg:buy the biggest latest merc each year (Car means more than House when it comes to a face issue)
never admit to being wrong
never say no
etc etc

That's very similar to Thai face imo.

**LesBonsTemps** · 22-09-2006, 02:56 AM

I see similarities between Asian "face" and some of the attitudes in my Southern U.S. culture. One's standing in the community and what others think of one's family has a profound affect on decisions and actions. This is sometimes to the detriment of one's emotional health, since priorities get somewhat skewed.

Here's a marriage example...when I told my mother that my first husband and I were separating and would probably divorce (mind you, this was the first time any woman in my family had divorced), her immediate reply was NOT "Oh, darling, I'm so sorry. How can I help you?" Rather, it was "Oh, no, what will I tell everyone at church?" Thanks, Mother. If it hadn't been for my more relaxed grandmother, I'd have had no emotional support whatsoever.

**Whiteshiva** · 22-09-2006, 10:47 AM

keep in mind that Thais (and perhaps most Asians) put emphasis on shame. Westerners are more concerned about guilt. For a westerner, if you do something wrong (or immoral), you are expected to (and often do) feel bad about it, regardless of wether other people know about it or not. The fact that your action was not noticed does not remove the guilt.

For a Thai, doing something wrong/immoral only becomes a problem when it becomes public. It is then shameful (even though the feeling of guilt is/may be lacking). Which may be why it is so common for people here to deny wrongdoing, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. It may also go some way to explain why people here are so reluctant to accept criticism, even when it is constructive. For a westerner there is no guilt in having made an honest mistake, thus there is little reluctance to admit to it and learn from it.

Even when a westerner has committed a crime or an immoral act, the feeling of guilt is often a bigger worry that the knowledge that other people have (or will) find out (Ref. Dostojevsky's "Crime & Punishment").

Insult a westerner (f*cking assH0le", for instance), and unless you get a smack in the face immediately, you are usually safe. The person insulted may feel annoyed for a short while, but he feels no guilt about the matter, and as such will eventually forget about it, or at least not pay much attention to it.

Insult a Thai, and he feels shameful. The shame will not go away unless he does something to restore his honour (real or imaginary). Examples of this are plentiful - sometimes directed at foreigners who did not realise the effect their words or actions woudl have.

Same action - different reaction.

**Little Chuchok** · 22-09-2006, 10:57 AM

^ Perfect explanation!

**Sir Burr** · 22-09-2006, 11:11 AM

Spot on Whiteshiva.

**Lily** · 22-09-2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

Examples of this are plentiful - sometimes directed at foreigners who did not realise the effect their words or actions woudl have.

Actually William, although I am sure that this happens, I also believe it is a convenient scapegoat for some things too.

If a Thai has perpertrated some act of violence it is easy for him to say, he was insulted, especially if it is a foreigner.

**DrAndy** · 23-09-2006, 01:38 PM

dont you hate it when someone calls a poster by another name?

whiteshiva is William?

watterinja · 23-09-2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

^^ try Singapore then.Those kunts are NEVER wrong.

sure - most are flippin' Chinks

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