Thread: The Universe. Whats out there?

A thought for today. And no, I dont smoke that shit.

If you had a bottle and sucked all the air out of it till there was only a vacuum. How would you measure the size of the vacuum? Would it be the size of the inside of the bottle? But since a vacuum is just nothingness, wouldn't a cubic cm of nothingness have the same dimensions as a larger bit?

What it comes down to is that we can only measure space (nothingness) by whats in or around it. The nothingness can extend to infinity. It never has to end because it never started. its just, well nothing. Giving space some kind of an honorary status as a tangible substance is very human. Its all the physical stuff out there in space interacting that makes it look like space is distorted to us.
Imagine every source of light, X Rays, Gamma rays etc like expanding balloons pushing out from a central point exponentially expanding in all directions. They start pushing on each-other eventually, distorting their shape as they fill the vacant space and squeeze past each other. No longer the perfect spherical shapes as started, but squashed and distorted in all directions.

Then add gravity into the equation. A force of matter that is known to actually suck in electromagnetic radiation. Instead of the repulsive force that causes EM energy to expand infinitely, gravity turns it all around and sucks it all in at an accelerating rate. No wonder nothing travels in a straight line through space.
But doesn't mean that space is distorted. Nothing can distort something that does not exist in the first place. The idea that space can be distorted by matter and EM energy is just our way of maintaining our earthly concept that everything with velocity travels in a straight line and therefore it must be the medium it travels through that distorts its path.

Originally Posted by Panda

If you had a bottle and sucked all the air out of it till there was only a vacuum.

How would you measure the size of the vacuum? Would it be the size of the inside of the bottle? But since a vacuum is just nothingness, wouldn't a cubic cm of nothingness have the same dimensions as a larger bit?

A vacuum is the size of the container holding it. It is only a space (3 dimensional) that doesn't have matter. Suck all the matter out of a room, and you still have the same size room.

What it comes down to is that we can only measure space (nothingness) by whats in or around it. The nothingness can extend to infinity.

It isn't nothingness though, it's the dimensions of space/time. Masses in the universe distorts it.

High-precision test of general relativity by the Cassini space probe (artist's impression): radio signals sent between the Earth and the probe (green wave) are delayed by the warping of space and time (blue lines) due to the Sun's mass.

the universe (space/time) is distorted by mass. If it is distorted it has to be more than nothing, it is something.

Giving space some kind of an honorary status as a tangible substance is very human.

It is a tangible substance though. Time exists there, as does 3 dimensional space.

Originally Posted by Chairman Mao

Time exists there, as does 3 dimensional space.

And there may be 4th dimensions that humans are not even cable of viewing.

Originally Posted by Chairman Mao

Originally Posted by Panda

If you had a bottle and sucked all the air out of it till there was only a vacuum.

How would you measure the size of the vacuum? Would it be the size of the inside of the bottle? But since a vacuum is just nothingness, wouldn't a cubic cm of nothingness have the same dimensions as a larger bit?

A vacuum is the size of the container holding it. It is only a space (3 dimensional) that doesn't have matter. Suck all the matter out of a room, and you still have the same size room.

What it comes down to is that we can only measure space (nothingness) by whats in or around it. The nothingness can extend to infinity.

It isn't nothingness though, it's the dimensions of space/time. Masses in the universe distorts it.

High-precision test of general relativity by the Cassini space probe (artist's impression): radio signals sent between the Earth and the probe (green wave) are delayed by the warping of space and time (blue lines) due to the Sun's mass.

the universe (space/time) is distorted by mass. If it is distorted it has to be more than nothing, it is something.

Giving space some kind of an honorary status as a tangible substance is very human.

It is a tangible substance though. Time exists there, as does 3 dimensional space.

It depends how you want to look at it. I cant go along with the concept that nothing (space) has physical properties that can be manipulated by matter.

EG: take a look at your illustration above. It depicts space being warped by gravity, and therefore the EM signal from the satellite travels a convoluted path through space to get to earth. This means the signal takes longer to get between the two points than if it travelled in a dead straight line. Time appears to be distorted only if you take the direct path as the benchmark.

Now consider that space has nothing to do with the distorted path of the EM signal since space doesn't exist at all, and that the convoluted path of the signal is due only to pushing and pulling of gravity and other EM in the way of the direct line.

You end up with the exact same result. Only difference is that one concept claims the space is warped by gravity to cause the convoluted path of the signal, while the other line of thought is that gravity is acting directly on the EM radiation signal to cause it to bend in its path and take longer to get to its destination.

Its well established that light bends when it passes by a distant star on its way to earth. One way of explaining that would be to state that the gravity of the distant star distorts the space around it and so the light has to go the longer distance through curved space in order to get to us. Another way to look at it would be to concede that gravity has some effect on the light itself and pulls it slightly off course as it passes.

Black holes for example have such immense gravity that light can not escape from them. Even light that passes too close gets sucked in never to continue its journey.

Of course light (and other EM energy) are interchangeable with matter. We found that out when we learned how to make atomic bombs. Destroying a tiny amount of matter creates a lot of EM radiation plus a lot of loose subatomic bits of detritus. It would therefore be quite reasonable to assume that light and matter are simply different forms of the same stuff. A bit like ice and steam are different forms of the same matter with different properties.
Matter being little bundles of EM energy rolled inwards on itself and trapped in an inward spiral with the inherent expansive force now reversed as an attractive force called gravity. Electrons are spinning at near the speed of light the physicists tell us. They have a north and south magnetic pole. In some substances all the electron spin can be lined up along one axis and you end up with a bigger magnet. Pass that magnetic field through a circuit of an electrically conductive material and you get a flow of electrons through the circuit. Called a generator. The flow of electrons causes other electrons to jump in and out of their preferred orbits releasing electromagnetic radiation to be released as photons of light. Known as the light bulb.

EM radiation and matter are closely related and can strongly interact with eachother. It is this interaction which gives the illusion of matter curving space which light travels through.

People used to refer to space as "the ether" a mystical substance that can not be seen because they could not accept the concept of absolute nothingness as space. That concept still prevails and actually works quite well. Either the light itself bends or the space it is travelling through bends due to the gravity of mass.
Either theory works equally well. Just that one assumes matter can affect nothing, while the other assumes matter and EM radiation can interact.

Originally Posted by Chairman Mao

Originally Posted by Panda

If you had a bottle and sucked all the air out of it till there was only a vacuum.

How would you measure the size of the vacuum? Would it be the size of the inside of the bottle? But since a vacuum is just nothingness, wouldn't a cubic cm of nothingness have the same dimensions as a larger bit?

A vacuum is the size of the container holding it. It is only a space (3 dimensional) that doesn't have matter. Suck all the matter out of a room, and you still have the same size room.

What it comes down to is that we can only measure space (nothingness) by whats in or around it. The nothingness can extend to infinity.

It isn't nothingness though, it's the dimensions of space/time. Masses in the universe distorts it.

High-precision test of general relativity by the Cassini space probe (artist's impression): radio signals sent between the Earth and the probe (green wave) are delayed by the warping of space and time (blue lines) due to the Sun's mass.

the universe (space/time) is distorted by mass. If it is distorted it has to be more than nothing, it is something.

Giving space some kind of an honorary status as a tangible substance is very human.

It is a tangible substance though. Time exists there, as does 3 dimensional space.

It depends how you want to look at it. I cant go along with the concept that nothing (space) has physical properties that can be manipulated by matter.

EG: take a look at your illustration above. It depicts space being warped by gravity, and therefore the EM signal from the satellite travels a convoluted path through space to get to earth. This means the signal takes longer to get between the two points than if it travelled in a dead straight line. Time appears to be distorted only if you take the direct path as the benchmark.

Now consider that space has nothing to do with the distorted path of the EM signal since space doesn't exist at all, and that the convoluted path of the signal is due only to pushing and pulling of gravity and other EM in the way of the direct line.

You end up with the exact same result. Only difference is that one concept claims the space is warped by gravity to cause the convoluted path of the signal, while the other line of thought is that gravity is acting directly on the EM radiation signal to cause it to bend in its path and take longer to get to its destination.

Its well established that light bends when it passes by a distant star on its way to earth. One way of explaining that would be to state that the gravity of the distant star distorts the space around it and so the light has to go the longer distance through curved space in order to get to us. Another way to look at it would be to concede that gravity has some effect on the light itself and pulls it slightly off course as it passes.

Black holes for example have such immense gravity that light can not escape from them. Even light that passes too close gets sucked in never to continue its journey.

Of course light (and other EM energy) are interchangeable with matter. We found that out when we learned how to make atomic bombs. Destroying a tiny amount of matter creates a lot of EM radiation plus a lot of loose subatomic bits of detritus. It would therefore be quite reasonable to assume that light and matter are simply different forms of the same stuff. A bit like ice and steam are different forms of the same matter with different properties.
Matter being little bundles of EM energy rolled inwards on itself and trapped in an inward spiral with the inherent expansive force now reversed as an attractive force called gravity. Electrons are spinning at near the speed of light the physicists tell us. They have a north and south magnetic pole. In some substances all the electron spin can be lined up along one axis and you end up with a bigger magnet. Pass that magnetic field through a circuit of an electrically conductive material and you get a flow of electrons through the circuit. Called a generator. The flow of electrons causes other electrons to jump in and out of their preferred orbits releasing electromagnetic radiation to be released as photons of light. Known as the light bulb.

EM radiation and matter are closely related and can strongly interact with eachother. It is this interaction which gives the illusion of matter curving space which light travels through.

People used to refer to space as "the ether" a mystical substance that can not be seen because they could not accept the concept of absolute nothingness as space. That concept still prevails and actually works quite well. Either the light itself bends or the space it is travelling through bends due to the gravity of mass.
Either theory works equally well. Just that one assumes matter can affect nothing, while the other assumes matter and EM radiation can interact.

shit, gotta advertise my ignorance. whats EM??.

Originally Posted by lob

shit, gotta advertise my ignorance. whats EM??.

electro magnetic radiation eg: light and that sort of stuff

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by lob

shit, gotta advertise my ignorance. whats EM??.

electro magnetic radiation eg: light and that sort of stuff

cheers man. looked that up now so more ofa. had an idea it was something to do with electrons but couldn't square it away.