Space News thread

[Takeovers]

"The satellite experienced an anomaly."

It is the second satellite of this design by Boeing, that exploded. This one after 6 years of operation, with a few propulsion anomalies earlier. The first, that exploded, was after only 2 or 3 years. Design life for these sats was 15 years. Usually they operate much longer than their design life, which is supposed to be a minimum.

[Switch]

It is the second satellite of this design by Boeing, that exploded. This one after 6 years of operation, with a few propulsion anomalies earlier. The first, that exploded, was after only 2 or 3 years. Design life for these sats was 15 years. Usually they operate much longer than their design life, which is supposed to be a minimum.

To the layman (me) it does seem very busy up there, especially as Musk is not the only one launching them?

[david44]

we landed on the moon in 1969.

Did you come back safely or still a lunatic?

[Takeovers]

To the layman (me) it does seem very busy up there, especially as Musk is not the only one launching them?

It is a complex matter, no easy answer.

Some people argue, imagine 20,000 cars on the surface of Earth, that's nothing. Not a good comparison IMO, cars don't move around at 7 km/s.

We need an international agreement or at least rules for using orbits. Presently there are none.

We also need, urgently, rules on what to do if there is a risk of collision. Who changes trajectory and in what direction? If it is debris or a dead satellite, it is clear, the active sat needs to move. Rules are needed, if 2 active sats are involved. If both take action uncoordinated, it may end badly. SpaceX presently operates more than 6000 Starlink sats, more than all active sats from other operators combined and are rapidly building up. Maybe to more than 30,000 sats. SpaceX gives out a simple rule. If there is a threat of collision, don't do anything, we will evade. SpaceX sats have the ability to move and they have an automated avoidance system.

Data on all active satellites, their trajectories, dead satellites and debris large enough they can be tracked, is collected by the US space force and available to everyone for use. SpaceX is using that data for their satellite constellation, basing their avoidance maneuvers on it. ESA is also building tracking capabilities, for even smaller debris. I think all the data will be available in a combined database.

There is little we can do about existing debris, just evade. We need to do everything possible to avoid more debris. Satellites at the end of their life need to be deorbited. Or, if in high orbits, where deorbiting is not feasible, move them to graveyard orbits, where they can do little damage. Recently, a number of spent upper stages from ULA and China have exploded, producing more debris. ULA says they have passivised them, vented propellant and discharged batteries, to avoid explosions, yet stages still explode after years in space.

Some rules I would like to have established. Satellite constellations with many sats should not be higher than 600km altitude. Up to that altitude there is still a little drag from atmosphere and the sats deorbit in less than 20 years, even if dead and can not actively deorbit. SpaceX have changed their initial plans to go up to more than 1000 km altitude and are now below 600 km. One Web Constellation sats are at more than 1000 km altitude, they will stay up for thousands of years, unless actively deorbited, that's a problem. They plan to deorbit them at the end of their active life, but there is always the risk, some sats stop to work and remain up there. I would like to see rules for very small sats, cube sats. Those don't have propulsion for deorbit. They should be allowed only in very low altitudes, maybe below 350-400 km, so they would deorbit in 5 years or less.

[Takeovers]

There are 2 big constellations coming up. Kuiper from Amazon and Quianfan, a Chinese constellation.

Kuiper currently has 2 test satellites on orbit. Project Kuiper System is planned to consist of 3,236 satellites operating in 98 orbital planes in three orbital shells, one each at 590 km (370 mi), 610 km (380 mi), and 630 km (390 mi) orbital altitude. The satellites are equipped with Hall-effect thruster technology.

Seems reasonable regarding altitude.

The Qianfan satellites will apparently orbit at an altitude of about 500 miles (800 kilometers), he added in another post.

That's a bit high, passive deorbit will far exceed the desired 20 years. Let's hope they reliably deorbit with on board propulsion. Not as bad as the One Web constellation already mostly deployed at over 1000km.

[Takeovers]

Found this table.

Initial Elevation Lifespan
200 km 1.2 days
250 km 10 days
300 km 44 days
350 km 170 days
400 km 1.7 years
450 km 5.8 years
500 km 18 years
550 km 54 years
600 km 150 years
650 km 394 years
700 km 972 years
750 km 2253 years
800 km 4916 years
850 km 10k years
900 km 19.6k years
950 km 35.7k years
1000 km 61.6 k years

Values can not be precise. They depend a lot on size and shape. Satellites with large solar arrays like internet constellations will have more drag and deorbit faster.

SpaceX is planning to put later satellites as low as 350km. They will deorbit quickly, need a lot of propulsion to stay in orbit. But they allow for tighter beams, with a lot more possible customers served. They need a lot of satellites because each sat covers only a a small area.

[Switch]

It is a complex matter, no easy answer.

Some people argue, imagine 20,000 cars on the surface of Earth, that's nothing. Not a good comparison IMO, cars don't move around at 7 km/s.

We need an international agreement or at least rules for using orbits. Presently there are none.

We also need, urgently, rules on what to do if there is a risk of collision. Who changes trajectory and in what direction? If it is debris or a dead satellite, it is clear, the active sat needs to move. Rules are needed, if 2 active sats are involved. If both take action uncoordinated, it may end badly. SpaceX presently operates more than 6000 Starlink sats, more than all active sats from other operators combined and are rapidly building up. Maybe to more than 30,000 sats. SpaceX gives out a simple rule. If there is a threat of collision, don't do anything, we will evade. SpaceX sats have the ability to move and they have an automated avoidance system.

Data on all active satellites, their trajectories, dead satellites and debris large enough they can be tracked, is collected by the US space force and available to everyone for use. SpaceX is using that data for their satellite constellation, basing their avoidance maneuvers on it. ESA is also building tracking capabilities, for even smaller debris. I think all the data will be available in a combined database.

There is little we can do about existing debris, just evade. We need to do everything possible to avoid more debris. Satellites at the end of their life need to be deorbited. Or, if in high orbits, where deorbiting is not feasible, move them to graveyard orbits, where they can do little damage. Recently, a number of spent upper stages from ULA and China have exploded, producing more debris. ULA says they have passivised them, vented propellant and discharged batteries, to avoid explosions, yet stages still explode after years in space.

Some rules I would like to have established. Satellite constellations with many sats should not be higher than 600km altitude. Up to that altitude there is still a little drag from atmosphere and the sats deorbit in less than 20 years, even if dead and can not actively deorbit. SpaceX have changed their initial plans to go up to more than 1000 km altitude and are now below 600 km. One Web Constellation sats are at more than 1000 km altitude, they will stay up for thousands of years, unless actively deorbited, that's a problem. They plan to deorbit them at the end of their active life, but there is always the risk, some sats stop to work and remain up there. I would like to see rules for very small sats, cube sats. Those don't have propulsion for deorbit. They should be allowed only in very low altitudes, maybe below 350-400 km, so they would deorbit in 5 years or less.

It all seems a bit ‘Wild West’ up there. I do realise it’s a much greater space, but sooner or later, technology must be used to avoid accidents. If new cars can be equipped with collision avoidance systems, why not deploy satellites with similar?

Any dangerous objects already deployed will soon become redundant. Satellites will follow the explosion in car ownership, without the network of orbital roads used by passenger vehicles.

Maybe now is the time to rewrite the non existent rule book. International rules for avoidance of collisions at sea already exist, even if China chooses to ignore them?

[Salsa dancer]

With that many whizzing around in low orbit, I wonder how long it will be before one comes down on someone's house, or a car with occupants ?

[Takeovers]

With that many whizzing around in low orbit, I wonder how long it will be before one comes down on someone's house, or a car with occupants ?

It actually happened recently. NASA replaced a large batch of batteries in the ISS. They put them on a pallet and just dropped the package out. After a few years the pallet was deorbited by drag. NASA had expected it would completely disintegrate on reentry. But one battery reached the ground, hit a house in Florida and got through the roof. No injuries, but some damage to the house. There is some arguing about who pays for the damage. This incident hit a legal loopehole. International treaties regulate, that a country has to pay for damage elsewhere. But there is no regulation in place for domestic damage.

Really funny, this happened to a house in Florida, very close to the NASA launch site. It could have happened anywhere in the world.

[Edmond]

hit a house in Florida and got through the roof. No injuries, but some damage to the house. There is some arguing about who pays for the damage. This incident hit a legal loopehole. International treaties regulate, that a country has to pay for damage elsewhere. But there is no regulation in place for domestic damage.

Surely an organization like NASA, that has billions of dollars worth of machinery and operations has neither problems nor qualms at paying for some poor foker's home when they accidently smash space equipment through it.

[Takeovers]

It all seems a bit ‘Wild West’ up there. I do realise it’s a much greater space, but sooner or later, technology must be used to avoid accidents. If new cars can be equipped with collision avoidance systems, why not deploy satellites with similar?

There is no way, a satellite can detect anything incoming in time to react, or at all. The objects move with relative speeds of several km/s and they are small. The only way to deal is what is being done. The US spaceforce acquires the orbital data of all satellites, active and dead, and all the debris pieces large enough to be dectected, which is a few cm size, maybe down to 1 cm. A new ESA project for debris detection with improved abilities will feed into this database. These data are available to everyone. There will be future upgrades to the system, to detect more smaller objects. Even a millimeter object can do serious damage at these collision speeds.

A satellite operator can use it to find any object that may pose a threat to its satellite and can take avoidance maneuvers. A satellite operator as big as SpaceX Starlink does this fully automatic. They already have performed tens of thousands of avoidance maneuvers.


A few things need to be done. One is to avoid satellites to break up into pieces. Satellites should not explode like 2 recent Boeing sats did. Boeing has built them, Intelsat operates them but this is clearly on Boeing, a design flaw, because it happened to 2 sats of this type. Also older satellites explode, years after they have been decommissioned, and upper stages left in orbit. This really should not happen. They are supposed to be passivized, residual propellant vented, batteries discharged. Well known is that very old US military sats have blown up, years after decommissioning and passivizing. Old upper stages of ULA and China have exploded. ULA just shrugs it off, say they have passivized them but it seems they don't care if they explode anyway.

Upper stages and old satellites should not be left in orbit abandoned. They should be deorbited or moved to graveyard orbits where they can do no harm. For that purpose they need to be able to relight for a final maneuver. SpaceX upper stages can. ESA Ariane 5 upper stages could not. The new Ariane 6 upper stage can, though that new system failed on the first flight. That happens and they will redesign.

Unfortunately it is very hard to find binding international agreements on how to do all this.

The two constellations with many sats in high orbits pose a threat. That's One Web and the Chinese constellation. They plan to deorbit at the end of their life. But there being so many, some will fail and will need to be taken down using external deorbit assets, which is expensive. Let's hope they act responsible.

There is talk about destroying small debris using powerful lasers. I am not optimistic but it would be a good step. Unfortunately such lasers would be weapons that can take out active satellites, too. So not everybody is happy about them.

[Takeovers]

Surely an organization like NASA, that has billions of dollars worth of machinery and operations has neither problems nor qualms at paying for some poor foker's home when they accidently smash space equipment through it.

NASA, being a government organisation, can not make any payments without a legal basis.

There is a quite old story about some debris coming down in Australia, no damage. NASA was fined a small amount for littering. Not being damage, NASA did not pay. The fine was later paid by a radio station, which made a program of it and listeners donated the amount.

[Takeovers]

Since I am at it presently.

NASA Dragon 8 mission just ended with a successful splashdown. Just minues before getting the capsule on the recovery vessel. Dragon 8 mission was extended for some time, until the decisions on Boeing Starliner was made. Then another delay of return due to bad weather in the landing area. But now they are back. After a medical checkup they will be transported to a NASA facility by helicopter.

[Edmond]

NASA, being a government organisation, can not make any payments without a legal basis.

There is a quite old story about some debris coming down in Australia, no damage. NASA was fined a small amount for littering. Not being damage, NASA did not pay. The fine was later paid by a radio station, which made a program of it and listeners donated the amount.

So NASA drop their space debris on some poor American bloke's home, and aren't allowed to pay for the damage.

Just when you think the UK has gone bonkers.

[Switch]

There is no way, a satellite can detect anything incoming in time to react, or at all. The objects move with relative speeds of several km/s and they are small. The only way to deal is what is being done. The US spaceforce acquires the orbital data of all satellites, active and dead, and all the debris pieces large enough to be dectected, which is a few cm size, maybe down to 1 cm. A new ESA project for debris detection with improved abilities will feed into this database. These data are available to everyone. There will be future upgrades to the system, to detect more smaller objects. Even a millimeter object can do serious damage at these collision speeds.

A satellite operator can use it to find any object that may pose a threat to its satellite and can take avoidance maneuvers. A satellite operator as big as SpaceX Starlink does this fully automatic. They already have performed tens of thousands of avoidance maneuvers.


A few things need to be done. One is to avoid satellites to break up into pieces. Satellites should not explode like 2 recent Boeing sats did. Boeing has built them, Intelsat operates them but this is clearly on Boeing, a design flaw, because it happened to 2 sats of this type. Also older satellites explode, years after they have been decommissioned, and upper stages left in orbit. This really should not happen. They are supposed to be passivized, residual propellant vented, batteries discharged. Well known is that very old US military sats have blown up, years after decommissioning and passivizing. Old upper stages of ULA and China have exploded. ULA just shrugs it off, say they have passivized them but it seems they don't care if they explode anyway.

Upper stages and old satellites should not be left in orbit abandoned. They should be deorbited or moved to graveyard orbits where they can do no harm. For that purpose they need to be able to relight for a final maneuver. SpaceX upper stages can. ESA Ariane 5 upper stages could not. The new Ariane 6 upper stage can, though that new system failed on the first flight. That happens and they will redesign.

Unfortunately it is very hard to find binding international agreements on how to do all this.

The two constellations with many sats in high orbits pose a threat. That's One Web and the Chinese constellation. They plan to deorbit at the end of their life. But there being so many, some will fail and will need to be taken down using external deorbit assets, which is expensive. Let's hope they act responsible.

There is talk about destroying small debris using powerful lasers. I am not optimistic but it would be a good step. Unfortunately such lasers would be weapons that can take out active satellites, too. So not everybody is happy about them.

My apologies. I did not account for the likely closing speed of two orbital objects. The rest of your post, especially with regard to ‘other nations’ does seem a bit lawless regarding space debris seems a bit lawless to say the least.

It is potentially more than just ‘litter’ when you add in other debris from other sources outside our control, and it all varies greatly in size and potential impact damage?

I am not being difficult deliberately, but genuinely curious about an issue that could easily get out of control if any possible collision is dealt with on an honesty basis, as it seems to be at present.

Thank you for going to trouble of such detailed answers to my dim questions. I can’t be the only one who is curious enough to ask?

[DrWilly]

Thank you for going to trouble of such detailed answers to my dim questions. I can’t be the only one who is curious enough to ask?

I may not ask many questions but I read the answers with great interest.

[harrybarracuda]

WASHINGTON — Boeing is taking another charge against earnings of $250 million on its CST-100 Starliner commercial crew program as the company’s new leader vowed it will not walk away from troubled programs like it.
In a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission Oct. 23, Boeing disclosed it took the charge in its fiscal third quarter “primarily to reflect schedule delays and higher testing and certification costs.” This is in addition to a $125 million loss the company recorded in the second quarter.
The company had warned Oct. 11 that it would take a total of $2 billion in charges in the third quarter on four fixed-price programs in its Defense, Space and Security, or BDS, business unit, including Starliner. The company did not state then how large the Starliner charge would be, although $1.6 billion in those charges were allocated to two military aircraft programs.
The latest charge brings the total losses Boeing has recorded on Starliner to about $1.85 billion. The mounting losses have raised questions about whether Boeing will ever be able to make a profit on Starliner and might instead choose to end it.

Boeing losses on Starliner increase by $250 million - SpaceNews

[david44]

There is talk about destroying small debris using powerful lasers. I am not optimistic but it would be a good step. Unfortunately such lasers would be weapons that can take out active satellites, too. So not everybody is happy about them.

Is that technically possible at present or in the foreseeable future, would the individual target be acquired or a "sweep, maybe not the pro term" as one might use a torch in the garden looking for lost keys etc.

I suppose whoever has first hegemony can just remove all enemy stuff, with of course terrestrial consequences.

Final question would a laser effectively "vaporize" or just create lots more micro debris?

[Takeovers]

Good questions all. I did not dig into this. Can't give honest answers. The goal would be to vaporize them to particles small enough that they won't pose a threat.

[Takeovers]

WASHINGTON — Boeing is taking another charge against earnings of $250 million on its CST-100 Starliner commercial crew program as the company’s new leader vowed it will not walk away from troubled programs like it.

Wall St. Journal reports, Boeing would like to sell the Starliner business. Great idea, if they can find an idiot who would buy it.

[misskit]

Mysterious US Military Space Plane Begins Advanced Maneuvers in Orbit

In a cutting-edge milestone for orbital innovation, the U.S. military's secretive X-37B space plane has begun advanced aerobraking maneuvers to shift its orbit.


Launched on its seventh mission (OTV-7) in December 2023 via SpaceX's Falcon Heavy rocket, the X-37B has been orbiting the Earth in a highly elliptical path, reaching well beyond the altitude at which satellites normally stay in sync with the planet's rotation before rapidly closing in near Earth's atmosphere.


Now, instead of relying on fuel, the space plane is using atmospheric drag to reduce its orbit gradually, a process that could extend mission durations significantly.


Although information has been released about the space plane's capabilities, much about it remains a mystery, including exactly what it is used for.

The X-37B is a highly classified, unmanned spacecraft developed by Boeing for the U.S. Department of Defense. While the exact nature of its missions remains undisclosed, the X-37B has been confirmed to conduct experimental research, such as studying the effects of space radiation on various materials, including seeds.


A recently released Boeing Space video showcases the spaceplane's latest maneuvers, which create intense friction as it dips into the outer reaches of Earth's atmosphere, causing the spacecraft's underbelly to glow red and orange.


"When we aerobrake, we utilize atmospheric drag to effectively step down our apogee one pass at a time until we get to the orbital regime that we want to be in," Boeing engineer John Ealy explained in the video. "When we do this, we save enormous amounts of propellant, and that's really why aerobraking is important."

This precision-driven maneuver aims to position the spacecraft for safe disposal of service module components.


Secretary of the Air Force Frank Kendall commended the technique as a "groundbreaking innovation" in a statement last month.


Gen. Chance Saltzman, Chief of Space Operations, echoed this sentiment, calling the maneuver "an incredibly important milestone" for the Space Force's expanding capabilities.

The mission has also shone a light on the broader potential of aerobraking for extending space missions without the heavy fuel burden typically associated with orbit adjustments.


According to Holly Murphy, program director for Boeing's Experimental Systems Group, the X-37B's achievements continue to push forward the boundaries of U.S. space capabilities.


"X-37B missions have continuously advanced our nation's space capabilities by testing new technologies that reduce risk and inform our future space architectures," she said in the video.


"Space is a vast and unforgiving environment where testing technologies is critical to the success of future endeavors," Michelle Parker, vice president of Boeing's Space Mission Systems, added in a statement.

"There is no other space platform as capable, flexible and maneuverable as the X-37B, and its next demonstration will be another proof point that this test vehicle sets the pace of innovation," she said.

Mysterious US Military Space Plane Begins Advanced Maneuvers in Orbit - Newsweek

[misskit]

[misskit]

2024 Thailand Space Week Kicks Off

Thailand Space Week 2024, themed “Converging Technologies, Connecting People,” officially takes place from today until Saturday. This event serves as the largest space technology event in Southeast Asia.


Organized by the Geo-Informatics and Space Technology Development Agency (GISTDA) under the Ministry of Higher Education, Science, Research and Innovation (MHESI), Thailand Space Week 2024 brings together over 70 global leading organizations, 3,000 participants from 34 countries, and over 100 exhibition booths.

Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Digital Economy and Society, Mr. Prasert Jantararuangtong, highlighted the event as a key milestone in advancing Thailand’s space technology, aiming to position the country as a leader in the new S-Curve economy.


Currently, Thailand is investing in satellite development, space infrastructure, and potential spaceport projects, with a focus on international partnerships for sustainable growth.


The Thai government also prioritizes youth engagement through education and hands-on activities to build future careers in space and technology, he added.


The event also serves as a vital platform for networking and knowledge exchange among global leaders, including those from China, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, and the Philippines.


Those interested can participate in Thailand Space Week at IMPACT Muang Thong Thani.

https://thainews.prd.go.th/nbtworld/.../675309/?bid=1

[harrybarracuda]

I'll take "Skynet has become self aware" for 20 please Bob.

Skynet-1A: Why did the UK'''s oldest space satellite end up thousands of miles from where it should have been?

[bsnub]

I'll take "Skynet has become self aware" for 20 please Bob.

Interesting.