Thread: House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

A group of 23 law lecturers of Thammasat University on Sunday issued a statement questioning the Nitirat group's motives for proposing nullifications of all judicial decisions which were a consequence of the Sept 19, 2006 coup.

Yellow wankers in pink or khaki?

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Butterfly

on what evidence can you make such a claim ?

Plenty- but most humiliating for the likes of you is that the PAD leader, Sondhi Limthongkul , actually stated this himself.

oh I see, quoting the PAD when it fits your agenda, but demonizing them when it doesn't. Very credible

so as expected you have no evidence and you speak out of your ass,

go back to reality Sab, living in the field of unrealistic Issaan dreams is not doing you any good

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

So you are saying the coup makers should be subject to the law and have their amnesty taken away?

what those law lecturers keep forgetting is that those "coups" were perfectly legal, sad but true

Originally Posted by Butterfly

what those law lecturers keep forgetting is that those "coups" were perfectly legal, sad but true

Nonsense. If the coups were legal then the coupsters would not have felt the need to insert an article into the interim constitution giving themselves amnesty. The coups were illegal at the time they were committed but retrospectively made legal.

The test of a "good" coup would be this. The general who holds it is so convinced that the country is being ruined that he is prepared to demonstrate his selfless love for the country by holding the coup, setting up the interim covernment and then making a full confession and submitting himself for trial on treason charges and accepting the penalty. That would be a coupster we could respect.

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

Yellow wankers in pink or khaki?

Who knows what colour(s)? It only needs to be 23 lecturers with an eye on having their contracts renewed.

Anand : We must fight absolute control

Anand : We must fight absolute control

THE NATION October 3, 2011 12:26 pm



Former PM fears poor understanding of democracy opens way to tyranny

Former prime minister Anand Panyarachun yesterday called on all Thais to fight against any move to bring the government, court and legislature under the control of one person or group.

During a fund-raising event related to the 1992 pro-democracy uprising at the Montien Riverside Hotel, Anand said the spirit of democracy must be backed up by true understanding of how it works. He cited Adolf Hitler as an example of how one man can use "democracy" to work his way to absolute control.

Anand's comments on Thai democracy coincide with an increasingly heated debate over a controversial call for all the legal consequences of the 2006 military coup to be nullified.

Anand said Thai society could not work out its problems because it was going around in circles, trying to solve the problems by focusing on political mechanisms such as amending the Constitution, elections, politicians and political parties. He said these factors are just mechanisms and not the essence that will lead to development or a good future. Besides, he said, Thais do not possess a public mind; they only get together as a group to oppose something and not to proactively call for something.

"A pro-democracy movement is not just about protests against election fraud or corruption. It must be a fight against a consolidation of the powers without using force or the military,'' Anand said.

The country's justice system has yet to develop, especially in terms of the law, law enforcement and personnel, including educational institutions on justice procedures, he said.

The Council of State should be abolished because the country should not be administered by mainly depending on laws. Members of the Council of State are 70-80 years old, which is too old for the job, he added.

At the same forum, Kanit Na Nakorn, chairman of the Truth for Reconciliation Commission, said Thailand's problems were caused by law enforcement or justice being dictated by individuals' clout. He cited Thaksin Shinawatra's share-concealment case, which was treated differently from other similar cases.

Kanit said the problem is escalating to the point that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Furthermore, there has been abuse of power because the legislative, judicial and executive branches are not kept distinct and checks and balances were not effective to hold authorities accountable, he said.

"We need a check system that holds these officials responsible and accountable," he said.

The country is in dire need of justice reform. The Department of Special Investigation (DSI), courts and police must be accountable, he said.

"We have investigators in many agencies such as the police, prosecutors, DSI and National Anti-Corruption Commission, and they do not work together, but sometimes quarrel. There are behaviours in the justice system that I found offensive - taking the easy way out, not doing the fieldwork, and flattering," he said.

Meanwhile critics of the Nitirat group accused the seven embattled academics of failing to address the problems of corrupt politicians and interference in justice that were rampant before the September 19 coup.

A group of 23 academics calling themselves "Law Lecturers" from several universities issued a statement attacking the Nitirat group, which earlier presented a controversial academic proposal that the September 19, 2006 coup and its subsequent actions including court orders be expunged.

The Law Lecturers questioned why the Nitirat group, which comprises seven Thammasat University lecturers, did not want to nullify the consequences of every coup since the country changed the ruling system in 1932. The fact that the Nitirat group singled out the 2006 coup has led to suspicion that its motive for the proposal was to favour a particular political group.

The Law Lecturers said academics who present their scholarly views to the public must conform to the professional code of conduct and possess ethical awareness, integrity and morals. Their views proposed to the public must be in the public interest and carry no discrimination that distorts academic principles. Academics must not focus only on one particular wrongful conduct and ignore other offences, they said.

They went on to say that academics must use the rule of law to protect the public against corrupt authorities.

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by pupa
what those law lecturers keep forgetting is that those "coups" were perfectly legal, sad but true
Nonsense. If the coups were legal then the coupsters would not have felt the need to insert an article into the interim constitution giving themselves amnesty. The coups were illegal at the time they were committed but retrospectively made legal.

The test of a "good" coup would be this. The general who holds it is so convinced that the country is being ruined that he is prepared to demonstrate his selfless love for the country by holding the coup, setting up the interim covernment and then making a full confession and submitting himself for trial on treason charges and accepting the penalty. That would be a coupster we could respect.

With the greatest respect "tomta" your not only where "pupa's" concerned you're risking RSI even bothering to reply!

23 academics?

23 PAD yellow nutters

Pupa cleans their toilets

Bangkok Post : Nitirat logic 'flawed'

Nitirat logic 'flawed'

Professors say wrong to focus on one coup

• Published: 3/10/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

Twenty three law academics from several universities have come out to criticise the proposal and the motive of the Nitirat group.

The Nitirat group _ seven law academics from Thammasat University _ has proposed that all judicial decisions that were a consequence of the Sept19, 2006 coup be nullified and that Section 112 of the Criminal Code, which deals with lese majeste offences, be amended.

The 23 law professors are from Thammasat University, Naresuan University, Prince of Songkla University, Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University, Eastern Asia University and Rangsit University.

In a statement issued yesterday, they called into question the Nitirat group's argument that the Sept 19, 2006 coup is a source of "evils" obstructing Thai democracy and any consequence from it must be nullified.

But it must not be forgotten there had been numerous coups since the revolution of 1932 that brought about democracy under a constitutional monarchy and those coups must also be deemed as"evil".

By the Nitirat group's standards, the consequences of the previous coups must also be invalidated, the statement said.

However, the Nitirat group has focused only on the effects of the Sept 19 coup and failed to consider previous coups.

"The proposal is based on a strange logic and this raises a question if the proposal benefits any particular individuals" the statement said.

The 23 law lecturers said the Nitirat group's reasoning was flawed as it failed to take into account the factors and the social context preceding the coup.

Before the coup, corrupt politicians, absolute control of state power by the government at the time which resulted in parliamentary dictatorship, and the interference in the independent bodies were actually a source of evils, the 23 law professors said in the statement.

However, Nitirat has insisted that it did not serve any particular political camp and said its proposals did not include a suggestion to grant an amnesty or a royal pardon to anyone, or to whitewash the actions of people who had broken the law. Those people should still face prosecution.

Truth for Reconciliation Commission chairman Kanit na Nakorn yesterday said the TRC is willing to listen to the proposal by the Nitirat group and may adopt it as part of the TRC's proposal for national reconciliation.

Last month, the Nitirat group, led by Thammasat law lecturer Worajate Phakeerat, issued a statement to mark the fifth anniversary of the coup and also called for the nullification of any court rulings which came as a consequence of the ouster.

Nitirat's proposal seeks to nullify any court rulings based upon the orders of the coup makers and especially those rulings by the now-defunct Assets Scrutiny Committee appointed installed by the coup makers.

Here is a cut an paste from TAN Network that SD would probably have not cut and pasted for political reasons

Pheu Thai Spokesperson: Opposition Has Plot to Overthrow Yingluck Govt

UPDATE : 3 October 2011
The Pheu Thai Party spokesperson said that an anti-government group is planning to topple the government by May of next year.

Pheu Thai Party Spokesperson Prompong Nopparit said that security agencies are reporting that there have been movements by political groups and former power holders, who are planning to topple the Yingluck Shinawatra administration.

He said that the Opposition intendeds to carry out a nine-step plan to discredit the government.


In the initial stage, the Opposition media, local people, as well as activists, in the guise of non-governmental organizations, will attack Pheu Thai Party's policies and its individual members.

In addition, it will pressure bureaucrats in various ministries not to cooperate with the present administration and encourage those who have been transferred unfairly to lodge a petition asking for justice.

Moreover, it will spread rumors that the Pheu Thai-led government is trying to help fugitive former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Plus, it will accuse the government of not being loyal to the monarchy.

Its main objective is to dissolve the Pheu Thai Party.

He said that he will report the issue at Pheu Thai Party's meeting on Tuesday, so that the government can launch an investigation, and so that it can take precautionary measures to thwart the plot.

Meanwhile, Democrat MP for Suratthani Thepthai Senapong took a shot at the government regarding its failures since getting into office over two months ago, pointing out that the PM's popularity has declined drastically.

Moreover, the government continues to raise many isssues, such as the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration's dummy cameras case and a constitutional amendment, in an effort to distract people from the Pheu Thai administration's failures.

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

The Pheu Thai Party spokesperson said that an anti-government group is planning to topple the government by May of next year.

they need to do it before that,

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

Here is a cut an paste from TAN Network that SD would probably have not cut and pasted for political reasons

Except that SD had already started a thread on this matter here...

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ves-afoot.html (Jatuporn warns reds to be prepared:moves afoot to bring down government)

And I'd been the first to post about this 9 step plan, yesterday afternoon.

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1892707 (Jatuporn warns reds to be prepared:moves afoot to bring down government)

But otherwise, well done, you managed to be wrong in every way possible.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Except that SD had already started a thread on this matter here...

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ves-afoot.html (Jatuporn warns reds to be prepared-moves afoot to bring down government)

And I'd been the first to post about this 9 step plan, yesterday afternoon.

Now you claim you are SteveCM?

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1892841 (Jatuporn warns reds to be prepared:moves afoot to bring down government)

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

But otherwise, well done, you managed to be wrong in every way possible.

explain!


and I do not see this post #113 (permalink) Pheu Thai Spokesperson: Opposition Has Plot to Overthrow Yingluck Govt in your thread or any other reference to it (YET).

^ You seem a little confused...the 9 steps to overthrow the government is in the other thread. First posted by me. Steve posted a longer version from The Bangkok post later.

Bangkok Post : Prawase gives his backing to Nitirat group's proposal

Prawase gives his backing to Nitirat group's proposal

• Published: 4/10/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The Nitirat group's controversial proposal to nullify the legal repercussions of the 2006 coup has found an ally in social thinker Prawase Wasi.

Dr Prawase, a prominent academic and a former Magsaysay Award winner, has encouraged all relevant parties to consider the proposal by the Nitirat group, which is comprised of seven law lecturers from Thammasat University.

The group is broadly against coups but is focusing on the effects of the Sept 19, 2006 putsch which ousted Thaksin Shinawatra and which they say has led to widening social divisions and proved a "source of evils" in Thailand.

Dr Prawase yesterday said that the parties concerned should assess the proposal objectively.

"Thai people must solve the inequality that leads to conflicts," he said.

"Inequality is a huge problem in Thailand. [Solving this] should be a common goal of all Thai people. Do not be obsessed with disputes or blame someone for siding with any particular party."

The Nitirat group's proposal to nullify legal actions by the coup-makers has been widely criticised as serving the interests of Thaksin.

The masterminds behind the 2006 coup launched prosecutions based on corruption allegations against Thaksin and his government after toppling him. As a result, the former premier, who fled Thailand in 2008, has a jail term, arrest warrants and ongoing legal action hanging over him.

Yesterday, Nitirat member Worajate Phakeerat said the group would officially respond via a statement once it had studied the criticisms thoroughly.

Meanwhile, the leading Pheu Thai Party says it will proceed with the Nitirat group's proposal and expects parliament to also grant amnesty to the coup-makers.

Pheu Thai member Wattana Sengpairoh, who is also the spokesperson of the house speaker, told a press conference yesterday that MPs will tomorrow propose the House set up a committee to study the Nitirat group's idea.

Mr Wattana told reporters that in his capacity as spokesperson for the legislation, he backed the proposal, but he acknowledged a reservation raised by Thammasat University rector Somkid Lertpaithoon that the plan carried risks because revocation of orders by coup-makers may lead to them facing prosecution because the statute of limitations on the crime of coup-making is 20 years.

They could learn a lot from Argentina. Lift amnesties and prosecute the criminals.

Perfectly doable and clean out the centuries old rubbish.

Bangkok Post : Nitirat pinpoints reaction, not real cause

Nitirat pinpoints reaction, not real cause

• Published: 4/10/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

This Thursday marks the 35th anniversary of the bloody "October 6" incident _ a day of infamy in modern Thai history. On that day in 1976, some 46 students (according to the official report) were massacred at Thammasat University and at Sanam Luang by right-wing extremists, apparently with the connivance of the military and some coalition partners of the Seni Pramoj government.

That violent incident was then used as a pretext for the military to stage a coup to overthrow the government.

Since the bloodletting was seen as part of the coup plot against that Democrat-led government, and an attempt to teach leftist student activism a lesson, the October 6 incident could rightly be called the bloodiest coup ever executed in Thailand.

By comparison, the latest coup of Sept 19, 2006 by the military under the leadership of General Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, was hailed as a "good" coup not only for the fact that not a shot was fired and no blood was spilled _ with the exception of one incident, in which angry taxi driver Nuamthong Praiwan rammed his car into a tank. Shortly afterwards, Mr Nuamthong committed suicide by hanging himself from an pedestrian bridge in front of Thai Rath newspaper's office.

Right after the coup, hundreds of Bangkokians came out on the streets to welcome the soldiers and showered them with flowers, food and drink. There was barely any media criticism of the coup or coup-makers.

But time flies and the situation has changed. Yesterday's "good" coup is now being villified. For the seven law professors of Thammasat University who call themselves the Nitirat group, the "Sept 19" coup appears to be the "mother of all coups" as it is being solely blamed for all the political ills of today _ turning Thais against Thais because of their different political colours and, in some cases, turning some Thais to embrace Cambodians against their own Thai brethen.

The Nitirat group's line of thinking and their controversial proposal calling for a nullification of the legality of the Sept 19 coup and all the actions taken as a result of the putsch _ namely, the 2006 interim constitution, the creation of the Assets Scrutiny Committee, the Constitution Court and the Supreme Court's criminal division for political office holders, revocaton of the current charter and amendments of the lese majeste law.

When I first perused the proposal, my immediate reaction was one of suspicion: that these seven law professors, in particular their leader Mr Worajet Pakheerat, were merely Thaksin's minions because the person who stands to benefit most from this proposal is the fugitive former prime minister.

This opinion is shared by the Democrat Party and many other opponents of Thaksin.

On the other hand, the Pheu Thai Party, the red shirts and other supporters of Thaksin, have welcomed the proposal and hailed the Nitirat group as being progressive and thought-provoking.

Those who disagree with the proposal should not be blamed for their suspicions of the Nitirat group's motives and for their belief that Thaksin would be the real, and probably the only, beneficiary.

The Nitirat group has categorically denied this, and has appealed to their detractors to look at the "big picture" of their proposal, rather than focus only on who would benefit from it.

Having read through the controversial proposal more thoroughly and given it some deep and unbiased thought, I found it to be worth exploring further, even though I still do not fully agree with it.

There is little doubt that Thaksin will benefit a lot from the proposal if it is realised. He will be able to return home and walk free because the verdict against him on the Ratchadapisek land scandal will be invalidated and all the cases pending against him dropped. The Nitirat group, too, must have fully realised this before they proposed the controversial idea.

The group has a valid point about the illegitimacy of a coup d'etat and its subsequent "fruit" which should also be deemed illegal. Its weakest point, I think, is the cut-off time _ why single out only the Sept 19 coup? Why not the others that occurred before 2006?

The other equally weak point is the assumption that the Sept 19 coup is the the main cause of today's political polarisation, as perceived by Mr Worajet and his associates.

The root causes were none other than the massive corruption and excesses during the Thaksin administration which provoked widespread public discontent and rebellion against his regime.

So, in fact, the political divide existed before the coup, although the red-shirt movement had yet to emerge in public. It is true, though, that the conflict worsened after the coup. This fact should be plain to everyone who witnessed the two violent protests in Bangkok, in 2010 and the year before that.

And who knows whether there will, or will not, be a third violent protest?

As I 've said, the proposal is worth exploring, particularly the point about the illegitimacy of the latest coup and its subsequent actions. This means going back to pre-coup days. Simply put, the cases filed post-coup against Thaksin which would to be voided, could still be revived in accordance with the normal legal processes that were in force pre-coup.

But one big question mark in the minds of quite a few people remains: will all the existing legal mechanisms be manipulated by Thaksin, or whether they would be able to function effectively, to ensure justice for all, without bias?

I wish to see the Nitirat group, as initiator of this controversial proposal, to take the lead in monitoring the legal process to ensure that Thaksin will receive the fair trial he has always demanded _ if there is to be a re-trial of all the cases against him, with no special privileges being granted to him.

For the debate on the proposal to proceed in a constructive manner, the Nitirat group should be more realistic and open enough to search beyond the Sept 19 coup for the real cause of the putsch _ which is the scourge of corruption that is no less evil than a coup and probably more damaging because it has the capacity to bankrupt the country.


Veera Prateepchaikul

He wrote that for a form 5 'O' level course.

Not so easy to eradicate the coup and its effects

editorial

Not so easy to eradicate the coup and its effects

The Nation

October 4, 2011 10:20 am

With the government already actively supporting the red shirt movement, even the pro-Thaksin camp has little time for the academic proposal to nullify the 2006 takeover

Once again, the academic group calling itself "Nitirat" has come out to defend its call for all the legal consequences of the September 2006 coup to be nullified. This proposed move has been interpreted by many as something that would only benefit Thaksin Shinawatra and his political and business associates. But where Thaksin is concerned, nothing is easy.

The latest statement from Nitirat, which brings together some prominent law lecturers, insists that the group's goal is nothing but a democratic ideal. It blames the 2006 coup for all of the political suffering the Thai people have had to endure over the past few years. The group, however, thanks members of the public for all the feedback which it says it has taken totally into consideration.

One reason why this move has been met with such widespread scepticism must have to do with the fact that a pro-Thaksin government is now in power. The rise of the Yingluck administration means that a major negative consequence of the coup has been more or less been corrected. The dissolution of both the Thai Rak Thai and People Power parties was the biggest controversy stemming from the coup because it affected a large number of people, not just corrupt politicians. While the two parties' dissolution has been condemned by many as an injustice, the political order that existed before the 2006 coup has been very much restored. Thaksin's youngest sister has become Thailand's first female prime minister and those devoted to campaigning for Thaksin both in Parliament and on the street have taken up important government positions. Bureaucrats associated with his former enemies have been either removed or tamed.

The second reason why Nitirat is finding it hard to push its agenda must be the ongoing process to help the red shirts. Commissions and committees have already been set up, and the Yingluck government itself is obviously keen to help its supporters who are in legal distress. In other words, with or without Nitirat's proposals, a legal and political momentum is already there to support red shirts who are in trouble with the law. "Erasing" the coup wouldn't make much difference in this regard.

The third reason may be the most important. Take away the need to restore a political party affected by the coup and considering that a process to help the red shirts is already ongoing, and there is only one major thing left to be dealt with: the issue of Thaksin's criminal conviction. That's probably why sceptics are saying that the one to benefit the most from Nitirat's campaign is Thaksin Shinawatra himself and other political big guns close to him.

Thaksin has divided Thailand, and, naturally, so has the coup that toppled him. Nitirat, which has to tread tricky waters, should be praised for taking all the negative feedback and scepticism in its stride. After all, Thailand's political crisis has more than one dimension. While the triumphant return of the pro-Thaksin movement makes it seem like a good time to get back to what brought him down in the first place, the big picture must be seriously pondered.

The black and white attitude should be no more. Perhaps it was the black and white attitude that brought Thailand to this predicament in the first place because it made everyone forget the big picture. To provide a long-lasting solution, therefore, Nitirat may have to start admitting that there were other political demons apart from the coup-makers, and those other demons may have been causing Thai democracy setbacks as well.

Nitirat obviously has tried to distance itself from Thaksin. The fact that it has had to go out of its way many times to do so, and may yet have to do so again, underlines how difficult that is. But most important of all, the fact that Nitirat cannot proudly identify itself with him speaks volumes on where he stands when it comes to democracy, the coup and all the relevant issues.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

and, in some cases, turning some Thais to embrace Cambodians against their own Thai brethen.

What a strange comment- what is the writer referring to? Sounds like a veiled reference to Thaksin's appointment as an informal 'trade advisor' to the Cambodian government. That can only be considered turning against Thailand if one views Cambodia as some sort of arch enemy.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

the assumption that the Sept 19 coup is the the main cause of today's political polarisation

It is.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The root causes were none other than the massive corruption and excesses during the Thaksin administration

That old canard again. The root cause was the Thaksin administrations cronyism, and the resentment thus engendered amongst an influential old guard, aka 'the old cronies'. Corruption actually fell in Thailand between 2001 and 2005, according to the most authoritative source available :-
Levels of corruption were perceived to have fallen, with Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index improving from 3.2 to 3.8 between 2001 and 2005
Thaksin Shinawatra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And then, of course shot up again after the Coup.

Originally Posted by sabang

It is.

it is not actually,

Originally Posted by sabang

That old canard again. The root cause was the Thaksin administrations cronyism, and the resentment thus engendered amongst an influential old guard, aka 'the old cronies'. Corruption actually fell in Thailand between 2001 and 2005,

maybe old, but still valid. Corruption didn't fell, it was more concentrated, but this concept is probably too hard for you to grasp.

Thaksin got what he deserved, he cheated his way in by concealing his assets and buying "smaller parties", and of course using Newin against the Democrats to stage a political coup.

of course your standard reply will be he got elected, so in your "moral principles", a leader can get away with murder, corruption, and cheating as long as he is "elected" with popular demand

Democracy 101 sab, get a fucking book and educated yourself on the subject