Mystery Phi Phi Deaths; Survivor Speaks, Finally

**nidhogg** · 17-01-2010, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

''The only thing I can say is that there is no way it was a bacteria or food or drink poison. Jill had NO ALCOHOL that night. and food poisoning can not affect a person so rapidly.

''Nor can a bacteria. And a bacteria would be easily seen in an autopsy. So I would really like you not to say that those had any part of it.''

Sadly, too mnay uninformed people making uninformed and misleading statements.

Symptoms
The symptoms from the most common types of food poisoning generally start within 2 - 6 hours of eating the food. That time may be longer (even a number of days) or shorter, depending on the cause of the food poisoning.
Food Poisoning - Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment of Food Poisoning - NY Times Health Information

**guyinthailand** · 17-01-2010, 02:18 PM

It was reported that the victims had massive pulmonary edema. It would be interesting to find out which, if any, food-borne poisons could cause massive pulmonary edema so suddenly. There are, however, many other non-food poisons that can cause that (see below). Also, he may be correct when he says that bacterial poisons (from food poisoning) may be easy to see on an autopsy and since none were found by Western (and maybe Thai as well) autopsy—well, you figure it out.

The canal behind the guesthouse having recently been reported to have been cemented over is, as they say, a clue—since the Thais like to literally and figuratively *cover up* anything that makes them look bad.

Here are some of the gasses and pesticides and other poisons that can cause pulmonary edema (water/liquid/body fluids in the lungs). There are probably additions to this list that my quick search didn’t uncover.

Hydrogen sulfide (common in Thailand)

Formaldehyde (very common in Thailand)
Cyanide (very common in Thailand)
Chlorine (very common in Thailand)
Carbon monoxide (very common in Thailand)
Organophosphates (very common in Thailand, as are many of the others listed below)
Zinc phosphide
Methyl bromide
PHOSPHINE (ALUMINUM PHOSPHIDE Phosphine (aluminum phosphide)
Sulfuryl fluoride (Vikane® Gas Fumigant)
Various fumigants (see PHYSICIAN'S GUIDE TO PESTICIDE POISONING)

FUMIGANTS

CHEMICAL TYPE Hydrocarbon MOTH BALLS MOTH FLAKESNAPHTHALENE CLOTHES MOTHS Chlorinated hydrocarbon BORER CONTROL MOTH CRYSTALS MOTH TEK DEODORIZER ROSE PARA MOTHPARADICHLOROBENZENELILAC BORER PEACH BORER LESSER P. BORER CLOTHES MOTHS APPLE BORER Chlorinated hydrocarbon VERTIFUME GRAIN FUMIGANT PREMIUM GR. FUMIGANTCARBON TETRACHLORIDE STORED PRODUCT PESTS Carbon disulfide GRAIN FUMIGANT PREMIUM GR. FUMIGANTCARBON DISULFIDESTORED PRODUCT PESTS CyanideM-44 COYOTE GETTER CYANOGAS CYANAMID FUMIGANT CYCLONHYDROGEN CYANIDESTORED PRODUCT PESTS COYOTES Chloropicrin LARVACIDE PICFUME TELONE C-17CHLOROPICRINSTORED PRODUCT PESTS SOIL PESTSpp. Chlorinated hydrocarbon TELONEII TELONE C-17 D-D VIDDEN-DDICHLOROPROPENE & DICHLOROPROPANESOIL PESTS Halogenated hydrocarbon BROM-O-GAS BROM-O-SOL DOWFUME MC-2 DOWFUME MC-33 TERR-O-GASMETHYL BROMIDESTORED PRODUCT PESTS DRYWOOD TERMITE SOIL PESTS WOOD BORING BEETLES Inorganic VIKANESULFURYL FLUORIDEDRYWOOD TERMITE STORED PRODUCTS WOOD BORING BEETLES Phosphorus compoundPHOSTOXIN GASTOXIN FUMITOXINALUMINUM PHOSPHIDE (PHOSPHINE GAS) STORED PRODUCT PESTS InorganicGRAIN FUMIGANT PREMIUM GR. FUMIGANTSULFUR DIOXIDESTORED PRODUCT PESTS Halogenated hydrocarbonDBCP FUMAZONE NEMAGON NEMAFUME NEMASETDIBROMOCHLOROPROPANESOIL PESTSAldehydeACRITET CARBACRYLACROLEIN (ACRYLALDEHYDE)SPACE FUMIGANTHalogenated hydrocarbon BROMOFUME EDB NEPHISETHYLENE DIBROMIDESOIL PESTS OxideETO OXYRANEETHYLENE OXIDESPACE FUMIGANTT hiocarbamateVAPAM NEMASOLMETAM SODIUMSOIL PESTS ThiadiazoneBASAMID DAZOMETDAZOMETSOIL FUMIGANT

**nidhogg** · 17-01-2010, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

, he may be correct when he says that bacterial poisons (from food poisoning) may be easy to see on an autopsy and since none were found by Western (and maybe Thai as well) autopsy—well, you figure it out.

No, he is not correct. the things that actually causes the problems are bacterial toxins. In certain cases these can be present - even after the bacteria has died. Most methodologies for isolating or identifying bacteria rely upon growing the bacteria to see what it is. If its dead - it won't grow, but as noted the toxin can still be present at levels sufficient to cause disease and or dath.

When trying to identify the cause of death in that autopsy, the phrase "needle in a haystack" leaps to mind. Mostly autopsies serve only to confirm (or rule out) what is already known from the circumstances surrounding the death. In a case like this, with few or no clues or REAL evidence from the scene of the deaths, its kinda unlikely that they will ever determine the cuase of death. A vital part of the puzzle is missing - i.e. a detailed evaluation of the scene of the deaths.

**guyinthailand** · 19-01-2010, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

, he may be correct when he says that bacterial poisons (from food poisoning) may be easy to see on an autopsy and since none were found by Western (and maybe Thai as well) autopsy—well, you figure it out.

No, he is not correct. the things that actually causes the problems are bacterial toxins. In certain cases these can be present - even after the bacteria has died. Most methodologies for isolating or identifying bacteria rely upon growing the bacteria to see what it is. If its dead - it won't grow, but as noted the toxin can still be present at levels sufficient to cause disease and or dath.

When trying to identify the cause of death in that autopsy, the phrase "needle in a haystack" leaps to mind. Mostly autopsies serve only to confirm (or rule out) what is already known from the circumstances surrounding the death. In a case like this, with few or no clues or REAL evidence from the scene of the deaths, its kinda unlikely that they will ever determine the cuase of death. A vital part of the puzzle is missing - i.e. a detailed evaluation of the scene of the deaths.

There is real evidence, namely the symptoms and signs the victims and survivors had and saw and experienced, which was massive Pulmonary Edema and survivor(s) noticed a "strong chemical odor" in room. Since there was massive Pulmonary Edema, it would be helpful if we could have a poison specialist or Medical Examiner, tell us what, if any, food-borne poisons can cause massive Pulmonary Edema. The victims had massive Pulmonary Edema. Does anyone know if there are food poisons which cause massive Pulmonary Edema? I readily found dozens of insecticides and gasses--all of which are prevalent in Thailand--that cause massive Pulmonary Edema. If anyone can find some food-borne poisons that do the same, I'm sure we would all feel enlightened.

**MustavaMond** · 19-01-2010, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

, he may be correct when he says that bacterial poisons (from food poisoning) may be easy to see on an autopsy and since none were found by Western (and maybe Thai as well) autopsy—well, you figure it out.

No, he is not correct. the things that actually causes the problems are bacterial toxins. In certain cases these can be present - even after the bacteria has died. Most methodologies for isolating or identifying bacteria rely upon growing the bacteria to see what it is. If its dead - it won't grow, but as noted the toxin can still be present at levels sufficient to cause disease and or dath.

When trying to identify the cause of death in that autopsy, the phrase "needle in a haystack" leaps to mind. Mostly autopsies serve only to confirm (or rule out) what is already known from the circumstances surrounding the death. In a case like this, with few or no clues or REAL evidence from the scene of the deaths, its kinda unlikely that they will ever determine the cuase of death. A vital part of the puzzle is missing - i.e. a detailed evaluation of the scene of the deaths.

There is real evidence, namely the symptoms and signs the victims and survivors had and saw and experienced, which was massive Pulmonary Edema and survivor(s) noticed a "strong chemical odor" in room. Since there was massive Pulmonary Edema, it would be helpful if we could have a poison specialist or Medical Examiner, tell us what, if any, food-borne poisons can cause massive Pulmonary Edema. The victims had massive Pulmonary Edema. Does anyone know if there are food poisons which cause massive Pulmonary Edema? I readily found dozens of insecticides and gasses--all of which are prevalent in Thailand--that cause massive Pulmonary Edema. If anyone can find some food-borne poisons that do the same, I'm sure we would all feel enlightened.

Since both survivors report " Smell of gas" so why are you fixating on food borne poisons?

And most spoiled food poisoning by bacteria causes diarrhea, that is what kills you in the end . N one had this symptom .

Let us not forget the other 5 or so mystery deaths in the Andaman region last summer, 2 of which in Phuket had the same symptoms of violent vomiting . A German man and
A young Iranian woman ( who had visited Phi Phi the day before she took ill and died . )

**guyinthailand** · 19-01-2010, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

Since both survivors report " Smell of gas" so why are you fixating on food borne poisons?

Fixating? Not really, just loathe to let unsubstantiated or incorrect comments go by. You two are the same ones who were posting reams of shite about cassava cyanide IIRC.

Ok, teacher, thanks for making sure we keep in line. We'll just let you do all the detective work, since you've got it all figured out. In case you haven't noticed, there is not much that is 'substantiated' or 'correct' about what is known about the investigation, including your implying that it was food poisoning. As if there is a big difference between ‘poisons’ and ‘toxins’ as your earlier post suggested! ‘Toxins’ are ‘poisonous’ to the body, get it?

And cyanide poisons in different forms are easily available in Thailand. Cassava (mansapparang) is only one source of cyanide in Thailand as was pointed out in my lengthy earlier posts in the original thread on these mysterious deaths. Instead of responding to the earlier posts immediately above here which raise legitimate questions about your idea of bacterial food poisoning and which ask you to identify what, if any, food poisons can cause 1) massive pulmonary edema in the context of 2) “a strong chemical odor” in their hotel room (& those two things may not be connected, I know—but they probably are related!)—instead of responding to that, you instead bring up a minor irrelevant point & old discussion of cyanide and cassava and make it into a straw man that you can knock down. Thanks, Sherlock.

**guyinthailand** · 21-01-2010, 02:45 AM

Returning to what MustavaMond said about his being deliberately poisoned because he questioned the quality of the coffee in a hotel: I, too, feel that I was deliberately poisoned in Pai after I questioned a tuna sandwich. A dog at a nearby guesthouse was poisoned at the same restaurant where I think I was poisoned, according to a nearby guesthouse owner. On that same trip to Pai I met a Western couple who told me they had both been drugged when a Pai bartender slipped something in their drink. I witnessed 10 dogs die violent poisoning deaths at a Wat near my home and the monk who ‘ran’ the temple told me it was the alcoholic guy who lived next door to the temple.

And let’s not forget the story of the Thai grandmother who murdered by poison numerous members of her own family, including her young grandchildren. Thais can have a lot of anger ‘hidden’ underneath their ‘sabai’ exterior, especially in a culture that has brainwashed them to ‘stuff/hide/not show’ any anger.

So, even discounting Muslim terrorists, I can easily picture a disgruntled Thai poisoning tourists for whatever twisted reasons.

Every culture seems to have mass murderers and serial killers. Why should Thailand be any different? Just because the Thai media doesn’t highlight unsolved killings, or admit to having serial killers—doesn’t mean they don’t exist in Thailand.

Bon Appetit.

**MustavaMond** · 27-01-2010, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

''The only thing I can say is that there is no way it was a bacteria or food or drink poison. Jill had NO ALCOHOL that night. and food poisoning can not affect a person so rapidly.

''Nor can a bacteria. And a bacteria would be easily seen in an autopsy. So I would really like you not to say that those had any part of it.''

Sadly, too mnay uninformed people making uninformed and misleading statements.

Symptoms
The symptoms from the most common types of food poisoning generally start within 2 - 6 hours of eating the food. That time may be longer (even a number of days) or shorter, depending on the cause of the food poisoning.
Food Poisoning - Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment of Food Poisoning - NY Times Health Information

Please take note I was posting from a news site.

Do not attribute this quote to me and then call me stupid for it.

And I never believed the cassava theory , have always maintained pesticide though I thought likely from a drinking water source.

However,more and more the canal in the rear, now cemented over, and with the gas reference verified, seems suspect.

I've also had issues with neighbors spraying herbicides.. Yes, probably paraquat...

Thais are certainly the most unaware folks I've ever come across, really not use to considering consequences of actions.

Visitors really need to be more forewarned about this particular cultural trait.

**nidhogg** · 27-01-2010, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

''The only thing I can say is that there is no way it was a bacteria or food or drink poison. Jill had NO ALCOHOL that night. and food poisoning can not affect a person so rapidly.

''Nor can a bacteria. And a bacteria would be easily seen in an autopsy. So I would really like you not to say that those had any part of it.''

Sadly, too mnay uninformed people making uninformed and misleading statements.

Symptoms
The symptoms from the most common types of food poisoning generally start within 2 - 6 hours of eating the food. That time may be longer (even a number of days) or shorter, depending on the cause of the food poisoning.
Food Poisoning - Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment of Food Poisoning - NY Times Health Information

Please take note I was posting from a news site.

Do not attribute this quote to me and then call me stupid for it.

Uninformed does not equal "stupid" necessarily, and more importantly, I was not referring to you, but the author of the quote (the brother I believe).

Time for guy in thailand I beleive. Is it only me that find the double team of you to to be slightly strange.

Log off mustava, and log back in as guy to support your post.

**guyinthailand** · 27-01-2010, 01:16 PM

^Is this guy paranoid, delusional or both? Just because two posters are in agreement on some things doesn't mean we're ganging up on you (or that we are one and the same--oy vey). I hear another train wreck coming! Screeeeecchhhhh.....Bam! Discussion derailed while we deal with the wreckage!

But I digress. The most noteworthy thing in Ryan's account above is---wow, the revelation! now revealed after how many freaking months?! (gee, thanks for keeping us in the dark all this time!)....is:

THERE WAS CHOLINESTERASE INHIBITORS FOUND IN THE BLOOD.

!!!!

Okay, all you posters who posited poisoning by pesticides, looks like you nailed it. (I was one of them, but, ahem, I also posited every other method and substance under the sun, so I don't count). But I still submit that they could have ingested this. Breathing it is not the only way. I know they think they smelled something 'funny', but like I said before, Thailand is full of chemical smells. Correlation does not prove causation. If breathing, then perhaps (maybe!) accidental. If ingested, well, we still need to know did the two couples eat at the same restaurant. (But a serial killer/poisoner could have been in more than one place/restaurant.) Yet it is also possible that if ingested then that, too, was accidental if someone supplied water bottles to the guesthouse that had residual pesticide in them--as some posters have suggested. Still, you got to wonder about those other 'mysterious' deaths, independent of these 4 people at Laleena Guest House. So I'd like to wonder why the experts they consulted think the cholinesterase inhibitors came from a GAS, since that poison can be ingested as well.

Too bad someone didn't have atropine to inject into them—which can help treat the poisoning. I carry it in my backpack when I minister to dogs at the Wats, etc, because I do have occasion to treat dogs who are poisoned by pesticides with cholinesterase inhibitors. I'd like to hear from a poison expert if a trial injection of atropine would be in order if Emergency Room personnel weren't sure of the poison, yet knowing that pesticide poisoning is very common in Thailand. You've got a person dying, you don't have much time...jeesh, looks kinda like symptoms of organophosphate or carbamate poisoning: so let's try some atropine. (Ah, probably not that simple.)

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