Thread: Muslims don't decry extremism? Yet another prominent one

The anti-Islam brigade regularly points out that the silent majority are so silent . . . so silent in the face of extremism . . .
Where are these voices that would speak against atrocities . . .

There are thousands, tens of thousands . . . along with many governments. Perhaps it's just time to open your eyes a bit.

Along with Marina Mahatir, another very eloquent woman is Zainah Anwar . . . it's a bit long but very good indeed:

Respect Islam’s diversity



If the Malaysian authorities are serious about countering the threat of IS and other movements, they need the political will to bring radical change to how Islam is understood and taught in schools and universities.

IN the midst of the relentless savagery of Islamic State (IS) group and the descent into chaos in countries such as Yemen, Libya and Syria, Muslim leaders, yet again, have been talking about the need for radical reform of how Islam is understood, and taught in schools and universities.

The latest coming from no one more important to Sunni Islam than the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar himself, Ahmed al-Tayeb.

Speaking at an international conference on “Islam and the fight against terrorism” in Mecca in February, the Sheikh attributed the rise of Islamic extremism on “the historical accumulation of extremist tendencies... that grew out of corrupt interpretations of some texts in the Holy Quran and the practices of the Prophet”.

He called for the need to “tackle in our schools and universities this tendency to accuse Muslims of being unbelievers” and for a conference of Muslim scholars to focus on common values that unite Muslims.

At the same conference, the new Saudi King was reported to have said: “Terrorism is a scourge which is the product of extremist ideology. It is a threat to our Muslim nation and to the entire world.”

So if the answer is to bring radical change to how Islam is understood and taught in schools and universities, what is urgently needed now is not more meetings and conferences and summits of Muslim leaders to tackle terrorism, violence and intolerance besetting much of the Muslim world.

It is the political will to act.

For a start, these leaders hold power, authority and influence to put an immediate stop to the toxic sermons and pronouncements from so many of their own religious figures and radical extremists who spew hatred and venom towards fellow Muslims and fellow citizens who think, behave, dress, and live differently.

They can start by respecting difference of opinion and building a culture of public debate on matters of religion, and how religion should be used as a source of law and public policy and practice in their own societies.

And this job is actually easy to do, and can be done right now. For there is already much scholarship, new and old, that is out there for the schools and universities to adopt if these Muslim leaders in positions of authority to make the difference is serious about their pronouncements of the dire straits of the Muslim world today and the threat this poses to fellow Muslims and the rest of the world.

Scholars and women’s rights activists engaged in bringing about an understanding of Islam that upholds justice and equality, that eschews violence and terrorism, and that respects diversity and differences of opinion have been working for over 20 years in bringing about change, both in terms of scholarship and activism on the ground.

Unfortunately, much of their scholarship and activism are ignored, at best, or demonised or banned, or at worst, the proponents of change are persecuted and imprisoned because their work towards a compassionate and just Islam do not serve the interest of the power elite and their desperation to remain in power or to gain power.

So can change really happen if those in authority tell the world there is a need for change, but on the ground they continue to persecute their citizens for actually taking action to bring about change?

Even if these leaders are yet not able to reconcile themselves to the rich and exciting scholarship that exists in the tradition and in contemporary thought and activism towards a more just and compassionate Islam, they could start by revisiting the Amman Message that they themselves signed in 2006, which denounced extremism, radicalism and fanaticism.

It contains many beautiful passages from the Quran about respecting diversity and differences, about calling others to the path of God with wisdom and beauty, about moderation, justice and not betraying the trust of the people, etc.

The Amman Message also included three basic points that specifically recognized the validity of all eight mazhabs (schools of law) of Sunni, Syiah and Ibadhi Islam; forbade takfir (declaring fellow Muslims as apostates) and set forth the subjective and objective preconditions for the issuing of fatwas, to put a stop to illegitimate fatwas.

Some 552 political and religious leaders from 84 countries endorsed the Amman message and its three points, including Kings, Presidents and Prime Ministers, top scholars from Sunni and Syiah Islam, and the Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar.

From Malaysia, then Prime Minister Tun Abdullah Badawi, Opposition Leader Anwar Ibrahim, current Youth and Sports Minister Khairy Jamaluddin and former UIA Rector Tan Sri Prof Dr Mohd Kamal Hassan were among those who signed on.

And yet we see today so many of the signatory countries, including Malaysia, embarked on demonising Syiahs as infidels and declaring fellow Muslims they disagree with as deviants, persecuting, imprisoning and flogging those considered a threat to their authority.

At the same time, these very same states wring their hands and twists themselves into knots about growing threats of violence and extremism that today they realise pose a threat to their hold on power.

Counter terrorism research shows that while not all extremism leads to terrorism, all terrorist acts are inspired by extremist narratives.

That ideas and ideologies that sow discord, hate and bigotry contribute to justifying acts of terror, and therefore cannot be left unchallenged in society.

It is a waste of time and money for political leaders to gather in Cairo, Mecca, London, Washington, waging war against terrorism, extremism and violence when those very same leaders are waging war against their own citizens who think differently from them.

The mindset that cannot recognise the legitimacy of differences of opinion on how a country should be governed cannot possibly provide an enabling environment where Islamic scholarship can grow and thrive independent of the interest of the ruling elite.

If it is “haram”, “unIslamic”, “anti-God”, “anti-Syariah” to question the pronouncements of a Mufti or a Mentri Besar on any Islamic matter, why should we expect those extremists in Syria and Iraq to disobey the commands of their self-appointed caliph?

The mindset brainwashed to believe that they have no right to question or to debate the orders and ideas of their religious leaders in Malaysia is the same mindset that obeys the call to behead, burn alive, and kill fellow Muslims and non-Muslims who think and live differently.

It is this demand for absolute certainty and absolute loyalty that breeds fanaticism that can lead to violence and terrorism.

It is this belief that those who speak in the name of Islam are accountable to no one that leads to despotism.

It is this belief that there is only one understanding of Islam that represents “true” Islam, and anyone with a different opinion is declared deviant and demonised, that breeds a toxic public culture of intolerance, hatred and bigotry.

The billion dollar question is not whether Islam is a just and peaceful religion.

For the scholarship already exists to bring about an understanding of Islam that promotes justice and equality, that embraces diversity and differences, that believes in peace, freedom, dignity, that argues for the possibility and necessity for reform to fulfil Muslim demands for democracy, human rights and social justice.

The billion dollar question is whether there is truly the will among the political and religious leaders of the Muslim world to bring about the radical change that is needed in the ways Islam is taught, understood, codified into law and reflected in everyday practices.

Stop wasting money and time on more conferences of Presidents and Prime Ministers and religious leaders to deal with terrorism.

Spend those resources on reforming the education system, reviewing the discriminatory and unjust laws, changing culture and practices that discriminate against women and violate fundamental liberties in the name of religion.

Enough talk and hand wringing. Show us the beef.

And if the Malaysian authorities are serious about countering the threat posed by extremist Malaysians who have joined IS and other movements, then they should take immediate steps to reform how Islam is taught in the schools and universities of the country and what messages are being preached over radio, television, during Friday sermons and in those ceramahs by populist preachers all over the country.

For a start, stop telling Muslims and non-Muslims that they have no right to speak about Islam or to question or criticise any Islamic law or debate the hudud law for to do so is to question God’s law.

It is a law drafted by mere mortal men, and passed by the Kelantan state assembly made up of men.

Stop pretending just because they speak in God’s name, that they are therefore infallible and beyond reproach.

..........

Respect Islam?s diversity - Sharing The Nation | The Star Online

They do not decry the Koran or the life of the filthy murdering phrophet though and that is where 'extremism' comes from.

It might come as a surprise to some people that a fatwa was issued against terrorism and suicide bombings. The Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings is a 512-page English version (600-page Urdu version) Islamic decree by Islamic scholar Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri which demonstrates from the Quran and Sunnah that terrorism and suicide bombings are unjust and evil, and thus un-Islamic. It was published in London as a book.

It costs GBP25 on Amazon. But hurry, there's only one copy left in stock!

Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings: Amazon.co.uk: Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri: 9780955188893: Books


Fatwa on Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^
that was predictable... have you even read the article?

What is needed is a fatwa against the Koran, that hate filled handbook for all jihadist and so called extremists. Trouble is if they chucked out the violent stuff, all the anti women suras and everything calling for division, hate and intolerance there would not be much left.

I'm impressed. A Koran scholar. Right here on TD. Will wonders ever cease.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

What is needed is a fatwa against the Koran, that hate filled handbook for all jihadist and so called extremists. Trouble is if they chucked out the violent stuff, all the anti women suras and everything calling for division, hate and intolerance there would not be much left.

Why don't you list some violent, anti-women and intolerant things that you think are unique to the Koran?

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

The anti-Islam brigade regularly points out that the silent majority are so silent . . . so silent in the face of extremism . . .
Where are these voices that would speak against atrocities . . .

There are thousands, tens of thousands . . . along with many governments. Perhaps it's just time to open your eyes a bit.

You're ..
No. Stay on topic.

GOOD.

Life balances itself.

The fact that the BNP is rearing its ugly head via UKIP and EDL is a testament to the times we live in.

Make or break time.

Either the moderate Muslim society actively helps to combat cnt like ISIS - or they stay silent (tacid agreement)

Then its fcn war - all out.

It seems thankfully that globally the vast majority of the Muslim community are condemning these shit heads.

There was a fatwa issued against IS, saying actions taken by IS are against Islamic teachings.

Originally Posted by Neverna

There was a fatwa issued against IS, saying actions taken by IS are against Islamic teachings.

I believe there have been many around the world.

More and more frequent every month

Divide and conquer is weak in the information age

Thank fck.

Muslims can make all the promises and deals they like with non-Muslims and then renege, any time, because Mohammed contracted a ten year lease with the people of Mecca, then when he had sufficient numbers in Mecca, he took it over and executed those who'd trusted him at his word.

There are several examples of Mohammed pulling a fast one with such deals.

There are more than 1 1/2 Billion followers of Islam in the world today.

If only 1/100 of 1% are fanatical enough to kill for their belief system then you only have to worry about the approx 150,000 nutters running around willing to die in the name of Allah.

Of course the families of those 150,000 don't have a clue where they are or what they are doing or who signed them onto the fanatical bandwagon.

If only 1% of Muslims do actually support the cause to challenge the world against
their non-beliefs or belief in the wrong God by all means possible - then you only have 15 Million nutters to worry about.

Maybe it's high time for some to take their head out of their arse and really start trying to befriend their Muslim brothers.
One might figure out over time that not all is as rose-coloured as one might think even amongst Muslims residing in the leading Western nations.

Certain poorer nations are rife with fanatics willing to kill in the name of Allah. Particularly they may be found amongst the 'disenfranchised'...the majority become immersed in their ideology simply because of their limited economic situation and their future perception of very little change coming their way.

Would you kill to put food on the table along with the perception of a better life for your family ?
(I believe that many would.)

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

The anti-Islam brigade regularly points out that the silent majority are so silent . . . so silent in the face of extremism . . .
Where are these voices that would speak against atrocities . . .

There are thousands, tens of thousands . . . along with many governments. Perhaps it's just time to open your eyes a bit.

Name and list those governments and give an estimate of the numbers of Muslims that oppose extremism, specifically towards non-Muslims.

It's only reasonable that Muslims would oppose terrorism, as most of it's directed by Muslims towards Muslims.

Great, so Muslims object to terrorism because they don't want to be murdered by there own.

Very wise.

What about Muslims supporting armed jihad (terrorism) against non-Muslims?

The majority think that it's acceptable in some circumstances, as is the death penalty for apostates, homosexuals and any blasphemers.

So who is this mythical silent majority of peace loving Muslims?

A few mosques in Europe bleated out "Peace! Peace!" and stuff after the C Hebdo murders, but around the world Muslims were celebrating the murders.

A few Muslim states have also whispered of an aversion to armed jihad to promote Islam, but no great clamour is heard from them denouncing their habit of murdering and cheating non-Muslims.

The silence from this silent majority of peace loving followers of Mohamed is deafening.

Originally Posted by ENT

Name and list those governments and give an estimate of the numbers of Muslims that oppose extremism, specifically towards non-Muslims.

Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia etc....

Estimate? Hundreds of millions

Originally Posted by ENT

The majority think that it's acceptable in some circumstances

Ok, show me where you get those numbers from

Originally Posted by Dapper

The fact that the BNP is rearing its ugly head via UKIP and EDL is a testament to the times we live in.

Nope, that's not the Muslims fault, that's the intolerant bigots who live in the UK.

BNP and EDl are just red herrings trotted out by Islamic apologists, they are not the ones flying planes into buildings, beheading people or quietly going along with jihad murder every day worldwide. The numbers are irrelevant but Islamists have still murdered 250 million people since the mad cult started by a lying murdering peadophile. Anyone standing against the evil that Islam represents and the horrific results of it's sickness is on the right side.

Originally Posted by Norton

I'm impressed. A Koran scholar. Right here on TD. Will wonders ever cease.

Ever noticed our self styled Koranic scholars are generally also the Islamophobes?
Their academic sources are formidable- such as 'killalldamuzzies.com', 'mohammedlubunderage sheep.com', etc.

Sterling stuff.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Norton

I'm impressed. A Koran scholar. Right here on TD. Will wonders ever cease.

Ever noticed our self styled Koranic scholars are generally also the Islamophobes?
Their academic sources are formidable- such as 'killalldamuzzies.com', 'mohammedlubunderage sheep.com', etc.

Sterling stuff.

Childishness like this is neither amusing nor intelligent. Perhaps people are afraid of Islam because they actually know something about it, whereas the apologist liberals like to imagine that if they cuddle up to it all will be well. Apologists for Islam are no better than those who made excuses for Nazism in the 30's.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Childishness like this is neither amusing nor intelligent.

Quite true.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

they are not the ones flying planes into buildings, beheading people or quietly going along with jihad murder every day worldwide. The numbers are irrelevant but

When fanatical christians act out, they are met on the ground by moderates who actively campaign against them. (See Westboro Church)

Where is the Moderate Muslim outrage?
Not a puff piece for the paper, but the protests in the streets, the boycotts or lockouts of mosques that preach hate? The nameing and shaming of radical Imams by moderate Muslims?

When pigs fly, mate.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Originally Posted by ENT

Name and list those governments and give an estimate of the numbers of Muslims that oppose extremism, specifically towards non-Muslims.

b) Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia etc....

c)Estimate? Hundreds of millions

Originally Posted by ENT

The majority think that it's acceptable in some circumstances

a) Ok, show me where you get those numbers from

Fair question, so a fair answer.

What numbers?

Originally Posted by Necron99

When fanatical christians act out, they are met on the ground by moderates who actively campaign against them. (See Westboro Church)

Where is the Moderate Muslim outrage?
Not a puff piece for the paper, but the protests in the streets, the boycotts or lockouts of mosques that preach hate? The nameing and shaming of radical Imams by moderate Muslims?

There is some outrage by Muslim moderates but not as much as most non Muslims would like .

UK imams condemn Isis in online video - BBC News

Originally Posted by boloa

Originally Posted by Necron99

When fanatical christians act out, they are met on the ground by moderates who actively campaign against them. (See Westboro Church)

Where is the Moderate Muslim outrage?
Not a puff piece for the paper, but the protests in the streets, the boycotts or lockouts of mosques that preach hate? The nameing and shaming of radical Imams by moderate Muslims?

There is some outrage by Muslim moderates but not as much as most non Muslims would like .

UK imams condemn Isis in online video - BBC News

ooooooohhhw... an online video. That'll teach them.

Why weren't he and hundreds of his mates at that protest where the school kids father was telling how wrong it was in incite violence?