Thread: Abhisit Vejjajiva has been invited to deliver a speech on good governance

Originally Posted by longway

Give sniper rfiles to a bunch of poorly disiplined and stessed teenagers and give them the power to call the shots and start shooting at them and you can pretty much expect it to unfold as it did.

The ground troops might have fitted that description, especially at Khok Wua, but I don't believe it fits the snipers.

^^On both sides Vera, seems to have been the only one who saw what was coming AND do what was necessary to prevent the bloodshed; not that it did him any good

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Now in answer to Bobcock yes that's pretty close to my guess too. But I think abhisit was being pushed along by others. The question remains who ?

Go ahead. Tell us. Clearly you have a person on your mind.

Originally Posted by longway

I just dont see any reason to need it to go any further. A perfectly good compromise was offered, it could not have been fake as there were early elections anyway, and even it was it makes no difference, it still could have been accepted, there was no reason to refuse it given the alternative. The UDD, and Thaksin, who paid for you and your mates to be there, knew the army were coming in and they had been deliberately provoking them for weeks if not months. The army's tactics were brutal and ruthless, but thats what you get if you seed armed militia within a barricared protest site and refuse any compromise.

The UDD and Thaksin made the the caluclated and cynical decision not to allow the protestors to go home unharmed, as they wanted blood on the streets. If they had accepted the offer it would have been unpopular, but so what?

100% agree!

There was no reason except spite to not accept the compromise offer, and it was very obvious, at that point, that bloodshed and rioting would be unavoidable.

Accepting an offer by government would have been win-win, as the Reds would have won if the govt had lied about the offer.

Considering that Abhisit, despite "winning" in disbanding the protesters, still offered early elections, I have no reason to believe that his offer wasn't genuine. Calgary, of course, will disagree, but considering who signs his paycheck, that comes as no surprise.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Calgary, of course, will disagree, but considering who signs his paycheck, that comes as no surprise.

If Calgary does get a paycheck, it's only in Monopoly money.

Originally Posted by longway

Do you remember Thaksin was photoed shopping for handbags in Paris a few days before looking like he did not have a care in the world. At the time he must have thought he could not lose, they either have to give in and dissolve parliament, and give way to a chaotic political vacuum or they have to kill protestors, either way he would get what he wanted.

Thaksin's shopping habits are irrlevant to the fact that there were well placed and photographed Thai army snipers present at the events we are talking about.

Originally Posted by longway

It will take years before the democrats will forgive him for putting them in that position.

The democrats are fully responsible for the position they put themselves in. They could have chosen to be a proper political party that works hard on policy formation and gaining votes. But they were offered power the easy and poisonous way and they took it.

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by longway

It will take years before the democrats will forgive him for putting them in that position.

The democrats are fully responsible for the position they put themselves in. They could have chosen to be a proper political party that works hard on policy formation and gaining votes. But they were offered power the easy and poisonous way and they took it.

Odd that, as did Thaksin, and you laud him for it.

As did Samak, and Somchai...

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

100% agree! There was no reason except spite to not accept the compromise offer, and it was very obvious, at that point, that bloodshed and rioting would be unavoidable. Accepting an offer by government would have been win-win, as the Reds would have won if the govt had lied about the offer. Considering that Abhisit, despite "winning" in disbanding the protesters, still offered early elections, I have no reason to believe that his offer wasn't genuine. Calgary, of course, will disagree, but considering who signs his paycheck, that comes as no surprise.

I don't always agree with Calgary but on this occasion I do. There were reasons not to accept the offer. Suthep was treating it as a joke by surrendering himself to the DSI not the police. Bloodshed was always avoidable until the army moved in. The Reds had been given no basis for trust and every justification for continued protest because the PAD had set exactly this precedent and were never prosecuted with any seriousness.

Originally Posted by tomta

The democrats are fully responsible for the position they put themselves in. They could have chosen to be a proper political party that works hard on policy formation and gaining votes. But they were offered power the easy and poisonous way and they took it.

Actually, your obvious bias does not allow you to see that the Democrat ascension was hard-won through negotiation and devising of a strategy that worked in booting out Thaksin's party - if anything it was the collaboration between Suthep and Newin that resulted in this win. No invisible hand necessary.

A mid-air talk inspired Suthep the PM-Maker - Nationmultimedia.com

Your speculation (and that's all it is) reminds me of the same kind of people that are convinced that Aliens gave humans the magic of Velcro, because they can't fathom or allow that some people are smart.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Odd that, as did Thaksin, and you laud him for it. As did Samak, and Somchai...

Not quite sure what you mean here. Thaksin, despite his many faults and the fact that he was a murderous, corrupt bastard (not sure where you get the idea that I support him) did in fact get the vote of people on the basis of policies.) The Democrats should try that tactic - probably the great tragedy of Thai politics is that a potential Mr Clean like Abhisit was prepared to throw that potential overboard for a cheap victory. In the process, he became a murderous bastard.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Actually, your obvious bias

You have no obvious bias? I admitted mine in a spirit of honesty and furthering the discussion. Surely, you have certain fixed positions too.


My major bias is this. In a democracy, the minority must accept the majority's right top govern as long as the minority's basic right's to life and liberty are protected. Even if it's a little bit hard for them. In the last six or seven years in Thailand, the minority continually overthrows the majority on account of their presumed stupidity and cupidity.

Originally Posted by tomta

I don't always agree with Calgary but on this occasion I do. There were reasons not to accept the offer

You only lose credibility by agreeing with Calgary. No news there, really.

The major reason the offer was repeatedly rejected was one man - Seh Daeng. He repeatedly ostracized the moderate elements that were considering the offer, branding them "traitors" and finally kicking tem out, assuring only the most extreme elements remained. Fortunately, he paid the price for that foolishness.

Suthep had every reason to treat things as a joke - at that point the Red demands were a joke. The government represenatives went along with requests, until the Reds' requests became ridiculous - I almost expected them, next, to demand Abhisit dress up in a punk bunny suit and hop on one leg. Suthep turning himself in to the DSI was, if anything, an amusingly brilliant counter-strategy.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Quote: Originally Posted by tomta View Post The democrats are fully responsible for the position they put themselves in. They could have chosen to be a proper political party that works hard on policy formation and gaining votes. But they were offered power the easy and poisonous way and they took it. Actually, your obvious bias does not allow you to see that the Democrat ascension was hard-won through negotiation and devising of a strategy that worked in booting out Thaksin's party - if anything it was the collaboration between Suthep and Newin that resulted in this win. No invisible hand necessary. A mid-air talk inspired Suthep the PM-Maker - Nationmultimedia.com Your speculation (and that's all it is) reminds me of the same kind of people that are convinced that Aliens gave humans the magic of Velcro, because they can't fathom or allow that some people are smart.

You've quoted a Nation newspaper article that largely talks fawningly about Suthep's and Newin's cleverness in putting together a government.

What this article conspicuously fails to mention is that the PAD had occupied Government House for serveral months, the army had abandoned all pretence of neutrality by calling on Somchai's legally constituted government to resign, the PAD had occupied several airports in the south, the PAD then occupied Bangkok Airport (and the law enforcement authorities including the army refused to evict them and in fact let them in), and in the nick of time the court dissolved the PPP using a handy law provided by that nice military 2007 constitution. Then a coalition government was put together in a military barracks. It was clever but it had nothing to do with democracy.

The hands are only invisible if you are completely blind.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

The major reason the offer was repeatedly rejected was one man - Seh Daeng. He repeatedly ostracized the moderate elements that were considering the offer, branding them "traitors" and finally kicking tem out, assuring only the most extreme elements remained. Fortunately, he paid the price for that foolishness.

What gives you this inside information? How do you know?

Originally Posted by tomta

Fortunately, he paid the price for that foolishness.

Yes, I know you've said before that you approve of assassination as a political tactic.

One has to bear in mind "the illegal junta coup, and military suppression of dissenters concept" and the history of thailand.
20 odd of them in some 60 ish years.

Now, in each of these cases there will be the authorising executive order, followed by one or more operational orders down the line.

Over the period the operational order(s) has been given by many differing junta associated voices, but the common denominator for the executive order.....

Both executive, and operational order elements are 1st degree murderers.

Thanks to the PAD yellow nutters on here for the usual helping of mirth,

You can't argue with that

Originally Posted by longway

propoganda about there being hundreds of these militia, and because of his tactics, people bought it,

You are mistaking 'people' for PADites.

They are not the same

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

100% agree! There was no reason except spite to not accept the compromise offer, and it was very obvious, at that point, that bloodshed and rioting would be unavoidable. Accepting an offer by government would have been win-win, as the Reds would have won if the govt had lied about the offer. Considering that Abhisit, despite "winning" in disbanding the protesters, still offered early elections, I have no reason to believe that his offer wasn't genuine. Calgary, of course, will disagree, but considering who signs his paycheck, that comes as no surprise.

I don't always agree with Calgary but on this occasion I do. There were reasons not to accept the offer. Suthep was treating it as a joke by surrendering himself to the DSI not the police. Bloodshed was always avoidable until the army moved in. The Reds had been given no basis for trust and every justification for continued protest because the PAD had set exactly this precedent and were never prosecuted with any seriousness.

But the UDD/Red Shirts accepted that mafia offer..accepted it with modifications, which should have led to an agreement somewhere along the line.

PADites keep trying to characterize this offer as an agreement.

Offers aren't worth shit.....only agreements are.

But because this was a mafia offer, there was no inclination to pursue it to agreement.

For some it is very much a numbers game.....

... and any numbers are good enough, it seems, even those of coupists and PADites.

(Funny, my keyboard wants to correct it as "compost" instead of "coupists")

Wanna have a discussion about this, preferably without the clowns? I have some personal views, theories, as well as questions, and you seem to be easonable, informed and able to discuss rationally. might make for some lively banter back-and-forth.

What do you think?

Sure, you have my email address don't you?

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Sure, you have my email address don't you?

Nope, I don't.