|Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
|It was not a paraphrase. It was a falsehood. Once again, point to precisely where I said "no-one is acknowledging shooting" when I sadi the Army is denying shooting, something you are clearly unable to refute.
|Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
|It was not a paraphrase. It was a falsehood. Once again, point to precisely where I said "no-one is acknowledging shooting" when I sadi the Army is denying shooting, something you are clearly unable to refute.
Marc Westhoff:
He showed film of the Army / Police / red shirt leaders agreeing that the temple is a safe haven.
Showed film of petrol being poured onto the barricades
Showed film of a severe beating of an army sniper who had been caught by the red shirts. He was in his underwear getting a severe kicking to the face whilst his hands were tied.
He also showed film of Molotov cocktails being thrown into Central World. He did describe them as red shirt demonstrators, but again my notes say that my impression is that they were just yobs.
Sorry BC, not good when someone exposes you is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcock
Your attempted diversions away from the murderers of 90 people, changing the conversation to the feeble fightback from those victims wont work with me, and I will expose what you are trying to do.
90 dead anti-coup protesting taxpayers, how and why they gave up their lives to elitist, pro-coup forces is all that is relevant. Not how they resisted to the limited degree they were able to.
You are also identified in my Post #145 above for who you are.
Anyway, I will leave it to the rest of you to deal with these tactics. I am off on my one-hour run through the rice fields and river dams of NE Thailand.
Misaru Goto was a Japanese photographer.
He had taken the last picture of Seh Daeng as he was shot. He said there had been no sound so it was clearly a long shot.
Had plenty of photos of armed demonstrators.
Showed pics of the Rescue Services guy shot by sniper on Rama 4.
Good photos of very small children trying to burn a building. Was told "it is their job"
He also had pictures of the Italian just after being shot.
Next was a statement from Dan Rivers, he said that although CNN film had shown red shirts with weapons "rumor has overtaken facts of CNN's coverage"
I was unclear what he was actually trying to say
^^ Calgary, keep waffling, keep repeating, I don't give a shit, I'm not typing this for you, you are a lost cause in the employ of the New York lawyer, it's proven, you know it, I know it. You are so un-neutral it's not true.
Now here are the two French journalists that say they stayed with the 'black shirts' (for want of a better term):
They slept at Ratchaprasong for several days and 'got in' with the black shirts. Todd Ruiz said that Olivier Sarbil was already with them. They were told they could run with them, but pictures were forbidden and they would be killed should they take any. He said the group was 12 with a support team that took them to 30, certainly not the 500 claimed in other publications.
They were clear that some of them were currently active Thai Soldier who ' were probably back in their barracks by now'.
They refused to speculate if here were other cells.
He described their weaponry as 'genuine high powered military hardware'.
I'll alert the assorted venomous wildlife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary
There was a question time where a lot of the questions were about weapons.
Brad Cox said he never saw any weapons.
Nirmal Ghosh saw only primitive weaponry, except for two men in black fatigues with what he believed was an M79 grenade launcher.
The Japanese photographer say his dialog with the soldiers revealed they were inexperienced and scared especially once they had received incoming fire.
I also have a lot of notes that I cannot attribute to anyone they could be Nirmal Ghosh, but as I cannot say for sure, I won't write hem, but there is nothing in there to excite nor outrage Calgary and his employer.
Feel free to research the names and see if you can find articles by them on what happened. In other words, find your own links, though I doubt the fear felt by some means they won't
Up to them.
NE, funny before he claimed he lived on the North
^ He lives in Chiyaphum. He's the local farang village idiot. :)
Apparently, even his underpants are red (which he wears on top of his red tights of course)
Some reds had weapons, and I have never once denied that. Where do you dream this stuff up:confused:?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
There were army snipers on the tracks over the Wat, they were photographed there and even some of the individuals concerned have been identified, apparently. There were independent reporters in the Wat who reported both shooting from above, and that they saw no red in possession of a weapon inside the Wat compound. This was an atrocity, carried out by a military unit located on the BTS tracks. Why is the Army covering for a rogue unit acting outside it's terms of engagement (the Wat was a designated sanctuary area, located outside the 'live fire zones')? Or was this unit in fact acting as a rogue unit- the obvious question to ask if the army is running interference for them. There are several 'incidents' contained in the crackdown, such as reporters being slain, the storming of the hospital by the Reds, etc, but this was an atrocity. Why is it being deliberately obfuscated? Surely the army would carry a lot more credibility as an 'honest agent' if it did not cover up for rogue elements.
Meanwhile, this thread has gone totally off track. Khun Abhisit, who has never once won an election in his life, and was titular PM over a regime who's track record was very poor, is making a speech on 'good governance' to an Asean conference next Wenesday. I'll be interested to read a transcript of his speech, and whether he addresses Thailand's political troubles or not. He does make a good speech, anyway.
[QUOTE="sabang"]Meanwhile, this thread has gone totally off track.........'[/QUOTE]
That is correct Sabang.
But just before we get it back on track, good for you not letting Bobcock sidetrack you, with his multiple Posts attempting to steer the conversation, and to equate the feeble fightback by the Red Shirts with the murderous, armed might of the State resulting in 90 deaths.
Now, back to the ICC investigated Abhi. and his speech. And yes, he will slant things to the Amart, self-serving interpretation of things.
In particular, ignoring the "mother-of-all" events at the moment - the unfolding Judicial coup.
I speak often about diminishing the military role in things, and instead focussing on who they are acting for. They are the 'enablers', who are "enabling" for others.
The identical thing is happening now. Whereas the military were enablers for both the coup and R'song, the judiciary is now.
That is the powerful undercurrent at the moment, sure to be ignored and obfuscated by Mr. ICC man - Abhisit.
And why would he do that?.............Because he is party to this judicial coup, and would obviously avoid incriminating himself.
Will reporters be allowed into the speech at the Penang Institute, I wonder. If so, question time will be interesting.
^
Could be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Although I have little faith in the media, domestic or international, for having awareness of facts I reference in my Post above
(#162).
Especially International media. The unilingual nature of the UDD/Red Shirts is beyond most of them.
And I will grant ICC man Abhi. this. He is glib enough to slip any incriminating questions.
[QUOTE=Calgary;2144255
I notice he went overboard attacking me after that, although the 'ignore' feature prevented me from reading any of it.
[/QUOTE]
.... then how would you know, if didn't read any of my material, then how do you knw what I was doing, hmmm..? BUSTED!
(maybe someone can quote this, so Calgary can have a justification to have seen it)
;-)
So, Bobcock is now an internal operative? Priceless!
Good sources of the French journalists. Thanks. I'll do some research on my own based on those names. Thanks.
Nirmal Ghosh saw only primitive weaponry, except for two men in black fatigues with what he believed was an M79 grenade launcher.
-----
The weapon of choice of Seh Daeng and his posse, in fact.
(See more below)
Rogue General ‘Seh Daeng’ Sets His Own Red Agenda « Saiyasombut
Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and VietnamQuote:
Also, as pointed out in a recent profile on him in the Asia Times, he claims that so called ‘Ronin warriors’ have been fighting during the April 10 clashes and also killed soldiers, but at the same time denies any involvement.
Quote:
He is wanted for questioning about a mysterious alleged death squad known as "Ronin Warriors". The government and military blame them for several recent killings stemming from dozens of unsolved M-79 grenade attacks on banks, electric pylons, army positions, an airport fuel depot, government offices and a crowd of people on Silom Road one evening near the red shirts' barricades.
Wearing a camouflage military uniform and canteen, Khattiya denied any link to the Ronin Warriors. But his frequent warnings of grenade attacks - right before they occur - have raised suspicions.
In February, he boasted of training hundreds of former Ranger paramilitary troops to protect the Reds. "If the state clamps down on us, we have to defend ourselves. We and our red shirt brothers may need to resort to weapons," he told reporters at the time.
He's lucky that's all he got, wouldnt you agree? This thread and it's revisionist bent with the usual closet elite-Dem supporters is pathetic. The newbies throwing in their nonsense tops it. The army had exclusively controlled the area around the temple and shopping centre when the temple massacre took place. To suggest someone else was firing from the skytrain tracks is moronic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcock
Tom
Don't try to play that game with me there's a good chap.
At no time have I commented on the murders at the temple. There is no need. To me it's a given who fired the shots. In fact so much of what happened is a given in my book. Sadly if you discuss the grey areas, fuckwits like Calgary make claims you are questioning the obvious.
Please don't behave in the same ignorant manner.
All these threads do, so why so concerned about this time?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
There are two lies spread about the april/may protests
1. that the army didn't shoot anyone or only killed in self defence
Whilst this statement is true for the vast majority of soldiers who were involved in april/may 2010, enough of them did kill without reason to make the statement a lie
2. that the UDD protest was an unarmed peaceful protest
Again the vast majority of the protesters were unarmed and peaceful; but enough of them were armed, violent and some were intent on killing, not many but enough to make the statement a peaceful protest a lie.
What happened in may was a direct consequence of the events on april 10th and giving primary priority to ensuring that the army did not have its commanders killed or find itself between the cross fire of snipers, as they did in april.
Who ever made the decision to recruit, train and install those snipers and the other armed elements in april 2010, initiated the chain of events that lead to all of the killings in april./may 2010. That person is as responsible as abisit and should be standing at the ICC next to him explaining themselves too.
who is that person, its unlikely to be anyone connected to the army command, the dems or the special family; given just how disastrous the presence of these armed elements were to their best interests. Personally I would look at who gained most politically and practically from the events in april and may.... who are those people?
Personally I hope abisit gets to the ICC. He will get a fair trial, if he is as innocent as he thinks; he has nothing to fear and if he is guilty he deserves to be there. With PT obsessing about amnesties and reconciliation without a hint of truth. The ICC is going to be the only way we are going to get a real explanation as to what happened in 2010, we all deserve that explanation.
Hmmmm.... Hazz there could be enough in that post to make you a PADite according to Calgary.
Welcome to the club!
Given Clagary's broad definition of padit, theres probably over 15 million of them in the country. hardly an exclusive club
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazz
The Democrats gained in the sense that they continued in government and were able to crush what could possibly have grown into a wider insurrection. And they gained in propaganda as there were many people cheering on the army and happy to see the "redshirt hordes" piling up in mounds. The UDD gained in the sense that they could use the propaganda of being the innocent victims.
Your speculation seems to be that the "men in black" did the sniping and killing of those who they were supposedly allied with in order to ensure the propaganda victory. It is equally legitimate to speculate that the snipers were the army on the basis of these facts.
1. We have clear pictures of army snipers
2. The army controlled some of the perimeter buildings which were identified as sources of fire
3. The army has the expertise in weapons, logistics and training
4. The Army has a history of violent repression of protests through the use of superior firepower.
5. It is quite clear that army snipers shot people from sniping positions on the skytrain. The army has form in this sort of thing.
6. The Army has not been able to produce a single "man in black" corpse or prisoner.
7. The Army has been completely closed about what has happened and continue to be . Prayuth's latest remark that evidence given should be given in secret.
8. The Army also had the motive of revenge for the grenade attack at KHok Wua (an attack which, howvwer, does support your scenario)
9. Army training is about killing the enemy not about policing protests.
Of course it is entirely possible still that the sniping and killing was done by a renegade army group of agent provocateurs controlled by Thaksin through Seh Daeng. Possible but I think there is vastly less evidence of this than of the scenario I just suggested. Added to this is that if a renegade Thaksin controlled army group did the killings, they could have been found out. If that were to have been the case, the propaganda defeat against Thaksin would have been shattering and irrecoverable.
Your speculation assumes that the hypothesized renegade army group and their leaders were so supremely confident that they could cause all the havoc, kill those supposedly on their side, get out without being shot or seen in a situation where media were all over the place, and not have any of their men killed or captured thus completely winning the propaganda battle. And all this in a situation that was fluid, expanding, and in which they faced a very formidable foe in the army, If this is actually what happened, Thaksin deserves the title of evil genius. But when you look at who gained in terms of propaganda, you are looking backwards from a perspective of knowing that the reds gained in propaganda terms because it appears , I think to most, that the overwhelming proportion of the deaths and injuries were caused by the army. To plan to win the propaganda war, someone had to be absolutely certain that this would have been the outcome and the common perception. I think it would have been impossible to be that certain of such a result.
But I agree it would be good to see Ahisit on trial at the ICC and our various speculations resolved. Highly unlikely to happen though.
Cockbob
you means to say that you took notes, but can not find links, maybe the MCOT have deleted them. LOL.
Theres no dispute on my part that the Reds caused as much Chaos in the city as they could,its what happens in a UPRISING.
The OP states Apeshit and his good Governance, now come our little Yellow coloured farang friends, just where does AB get this so called good Governance Tag, has he threw someone a bung, for the invitation to speak, as previously stated Thaksin if anyone should of got the invitation, for his turning around the nation after the being voted in as the most successful PM of all time, surely you Yellows have the respect to acknowledge this, hmm now that is the question or does Cockbob and co go down the line of attack from another avenue as there arguements are nil and void.
CockBob heres one such report for you, though please note how they use the words Black shirt and Red Shirts Ronin and UDD
Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam