Phi Phi : Canadian sisters found dead in Thai resort

**alitongkat** · 01-09-2012, 02:47 AM

very informative on DEET
DEET (PIM 170)
.

**alitongkat** · 01-09-2012, 02:50 AM

the family should also sue the bar, which served that fatal deet drink...

they were their two only daughters and they might have relied on them to support their parents during retirement...

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 04:40 AM

First of all, has anyone heard of a Thai cocktail concoction that includes the insecticide DEET? Or a Thai cocktail that includes any insecticide?

I don’t think even Thais are that stupid to think mixing a pesticide in a drink is a good thing. I find zero info on the internet of any mention of DEET or other insecticide as a choice for cocktail ingredients except in articles about the Belanger sisters.

This is f*#king ridiculous.

There are 400 million uses of DEET each year in the US alone (used since 1957 in the US by the general public), and billions of uses worldwide. So perhaps it is not surprising they found traces of DEET in the bodies of the Belanger sisters.

Now, let’s see if DEET is that toxic.

Acute Toxicity:

Oral

· “DEET is low in toxicity to rats when ingested. The acute oral LD50 in rats is 2170 to 3664 mg/kg.1 “
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/DEETtech.html#acute

So a 60kg woman would need 60kg x 3000mg/kg= 180,000mg or 180 grams—over 6 ounces.

Maybe this is why there are so few—or even zero—reports of death by ingestion from DEET. There are other readily available insecticides in Thailand that Thais routinely use for homicides and suicides that require far, far less to kill.

So even if they died from DEET---highly, highly unlikely—are the ‘authorities’ suggesting that six (!) ounces were ACCIDENTALLY poured into their drink?

And it is a strange ‘coincidence’ indeed that these two sisters were the only ones we’ve ever heard of getting sick from a “Thai cocktail” that includes, of all things, the insecticide DEET.

Animals “Researchers fed DEET to male and female rats in the diet for two years at doses of 10, 30, or 100 mg/kg/day, and 30, 100, or 400 mg/kg/day, respectively. Researchers fed mice 250, 500, or 1,000 mg/kg/day for 18 months, and dogs 30, 100, or 400 mg/kg/day. No specific target organ toxicity or oncogenicity was observed in any of the animals.14
Signs of Toxicity - Animals

“Reports of DEET toxicosis in animals are rare. Clinical signs in dogs and cats may include vomiting, tremors, excitation, ataxia, and seizures

“Gastrointestinal symptoms reported to poison control centers following exposure to DEET primarily occurred following ingestion. Gastrointestinal symptoms included oral irritation, nausea, and vomiting”.
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/DEETtech.html#acute

So nausea and vomiting are the symptoms of DEET poisoning. But in the room of the poisoned Canadian sisters there was a lot of feces all over the room in addition to vomit. And the Belanger had signs of internal bleeding.

The Nation(thailand newspaper)
June 19, 2012 1:00 am
Dr Pornthep Siriwanarangsan, head of the Disease Control Department, said the initial investigation in the room found a large quantity of vomit and faeces. There was evidence of bleeding and their nails had turned black, probably caused by internal bleeding.

**Latindancer** · 01-09-2012, 06:50 AM

What this indicates is that there is a high likelihood there was another insecticide or poison that was taken internally but which the Thai hospital could not detect.
The feces and internal bleeding indicate that it was something that the human body reacts to violently. However Deet is apparently not associated with internal bleeding.

It does cause diarrhoea, G.I.T:
From Alitongkat's link above :
Ingestion causes gastrointestinal effects such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and malaise which may be followed by systemic effects if the dose is sufficiently large. Within 0.5 to 6 h, the patient develops a decreased level of consciousness, hypotension, tachycardia, convulsions and respiratory depression.

clinical effects If small amounts or a low concentration formulation is ingested, only gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and abdominal pain may occur.
.
.
.

**spliff** · 01-09-2012, 07:03 AM

Incompetent!

Vietnamese police blame alcohol for Canadian tourist's death: Report | World | News | Toronto Sun

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Latindancer

What this indicates is that there is a high likelihood there was another insecticide or poison that was taken internally but which the Thai hospital could not detect.

Or maybe the Thais detected the real poison and then 'spun' this kids-put-DEET-in-the-cocktail' story to divert attention away from a serial killer.

It is interesting that this DEET information is coming from the Thais, and not from the Canadians who are, apparently, still, two months later, doing their own autopsy and are keeping quiet about anything they've learned so far.

But, still, even if DEET is the culprit then the chances of it being an accidental poisoning are pretty slim.

Originally Posted by Latindancer

It does cause diarrhoea, G.I.T:
From Alitongkat's link above :

I saw the reference to diarrhea in his link but all the other links I checked only mentioned vomiting, including my 2007 edition of Goldfrank's "Manual of Toxicologic Emergencies", so I think that link is sort of out of date. For one thing, it mentions inducing vomiting when that is now generally considered 'old school' and a dangerous thing to do because of the danger of aspirating the poison and plus it doesn't remove most of the poison anyway. Instead, giving large doses of activated charcoal (140 capsules for a 70kg person--1 gram per kg--every four hours) is the way to go. (But there are exceptions to the do-not-induce-vomiting rule).

I just called the 800 number in the States for the poison control center and they read the list of symptoms for acute large DEET poisoning and diarrhea is not one of them. I should mention that the woman at the Poison Control Center said she's never heard of a death from DEET, which conforms to what I've read on the web.

**socal** · 01-09-2012, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by spliff

Incompetent!

Vietnamese police blame alcohol for Canadian tourist's death: Report | World | News | Toronto Sun

??? Why the fuck dont you think it could be possible ?

**socal** · 01-09-2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by alitongkat

the family should also sue the bar, which served that fatal deet drink...

.

The extra ingredient is sometimes added by a third party.

Bottom line is, they were doing drugs and they OD'd.

**boatboy** · 01-09-2012, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Though the chemical is a potentially neurotoxic mosquito repellent, it is used as an ingredient in a euphoria-inducing cocktail that is popular among youth in Thailand. The drink containts cough syrup, Coke, DEET and a leaf extract.

It is thought that an overdose of DEET was accidentally mixed into the young women's drinks.
.

In case you were wondering

Kratom Leaf for Drug Cocktail Adds to Thailand's Woes
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/wo...pagewanted=all
But the spreading popularity of the much stronger narcotic cocktail — typically made by boiling the leaves and adding cough syrup, Coca-Cola and ice — has created a sharp increase in demand for the leaf.

**alitongkat** · 01-09-2012, 09:46 AM

im surprised, that they would order such a drink... just because for what is known about them...

the brazilian guys, which they spent the evening with could know...

fact is - the thais encouraged the assumption (before the official report), that the girls had a popular drug drink before they died...

they really must have strong reason to assume that - e.g. having found the kratom in their blood as well... shouldnt be rocket science, should it?

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by socal

Bottom line is, they were doing drugs and they OD'd.

nope, can't be that. symptoms don't fit "OD".

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 10:23 AM

"It is thought that an overdose of DEET was accidentally mixed into the young women's drinks".

Thais don't use DEET. Thais don't have DEET laying around. Thais don't 'accidentally' pour the DEET that they don't use and don't have laying around into a drink.

I think Thais are some of the most intellectually challenged people but I really doubt they would sit around saying 'hey, let's drink this bug poison for fun'.

And who carries 6 ounces of the stuff anyway? (the amount necessary to kill a 60kg person if they were to ingest it). Many bottles are only 4 ounces.

I think the Thais know what may be coming from the Canadians and they are trying to spin this 'accident' story.

**Thetyim** · 01-09-2012, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

they are trying to spin this 'accident' story

Well if a person can buy a gun, load it, cock it, point it at his wife and then accidentally shoot her during dinner then I have no problem with this story

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 10:34 AM

Accidentally firing a gun and picking up a bottle of bug poison and pouring it in a drink are not analogous.

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 10:37 AM

But let's assume the Thais are stupid enough to actually make a drink using bug poison. Would the Thai medical folks who 'examined' the bodies introduce the DEET into the corpses so that they could later say "see, it must have been those pesky kids with their bug poison drink".

Nah, Thais would never do that, they're too honest, and have too much integrity. (not !!!)

**alitongkat** · 01-09-2012, 10:40 AM

when the blood is tested for DEET, does anyone know how long it takes to determine if its in it (or in the body)....

im just wondering what took weeks - was it that they had to get the idea to test for DEET or does it take so long to get the result?

**guyinthailand** · 01-09-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by alitongkat

when the blood is tested for DEET, does anyone know how long it takes to determine if its in it (or in the body)....

im just wondering what took weeks - was it that they had to get the idea to test for DEET or does it take so long to get the result?

I bet there's little forensic data on this because there are so few--or no--deaths from DEET.

**socal** · 03-09-2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by alitongkat

im surprised, that they would order such a drink... just because for what is known about them...

the brazilian guys, which they spent the evening with could know...

fact is - the thais encouraged the assumption (before the official report), that the girls had a popular drug drink before they died...

they really must have strong reason to assume that - e.g. having found the kratom in their blood as well... shouldnt be rocket science, should it?

Yeah yeah. Just because they are white and appear innocent, u think they are angles. The white angle is extinct. White girls are manly, snobby feminist kunts, generally speaking

**Bobcock** · 03-09-2012, 02:22 PM

Spot the poster who can't get laid at home.

Thank God for Thailand eh socal?

**Thetyim** · 03-09-2012, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by socal

The white angle is extinct.

That's an acute observation coming from someone as obtuse as you

**socal** · 03-09-2012, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Spot the poster who can't get laid at home.

Thank God for Thailand eh socal?

Just the opposite.

Guys that are insecure don't say the things I say for fear of getting BS comments like yours.

Its fluff bags like you, who have no standards that make women like this. Guys like you will put up with anything as long as u r getting a hope of sex

**guyinthailand** · 05-09-2012, 02:02 AM

All silent on ‘insecticide’ causing deaths of Canadian sisters

Phuket Gazette – Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8 19 PM

Forensics experts and Thai police are observing the family's request to not reveal details of the investigation into the deaths of Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger.

PHUKET: A spokesperson at the forensic laboratory at Ramathibodi Hospital in Bangkok today declined to confirm or deny reports that insecticide containing DEET had been identified as the cause of death of Audrey and Noemi Belanger.

The sisters, Audrey, age 20, and Noemi, 25, from Quebec, Canada, were found dead in their hotel room on Phi Phi Island on June 15. Police initially suspected food poisoning.

The spokesperson at the forensic laboratory at Ramathibodi Hospital, which conducted the autopsies on the bodies of the two women, today confirmed that she had heard of the reports identifying DEET as the possible poison that killed the two women.

However, she declined to comment, citing a request from the Belanger family to not publicly reveal any details of the case.

“I am aware that insecticide was named as the cause, but we have been asked by the Canadian embassy to not to reveal any details regarding the Belanger sisters in order to respect the privacy of the family,” she said.

“I can confirm that the autopsy results have been reported to the embassy and the family,” she added.

However, case investigator Lt Col Jongrak of Krabi City Police confirmed to the Gazette,“The case is not yet closed. We are continuing our investigation. I have been in touch with the Canadian embassy, and we have yet to question the doctor who performed the autopsies.

“We expect to conclude our investigation by the end of the month. At that time I will be able to reveal more details,” he said.

**socal** · 05-09-2012, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

All silent on ‘insecticide’ causing deaths of Canadian sisters

Phuket Gazette – Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8 19 PM

Forensics experts and Thai police are observing the family's request to not reveal details of the investigation into the deaths of Canadian sisters Audrey and Noemi Belanger.

PHUKET: A spokesperson at the forensic laboratory at Ramathibodi Hospital in Bangkok today declined to confirm or deny reports that insecticide containing DEET had been identified as the cause of death of Audrey and Noemi Belanger.

The sisters, Audrey, age 20, and Noemi, 25, from Quebec, Canada, were found dead in their hotel room on Phi Phi Island on June 15. Police initially suspected food poisoning.

The spokesperson at the forensic laboratory at Ramathibodi Hospital, which conducted the autopsies on the bodies of the two women, today confirmed that she had heard of the reports identifying DEET as the possible poison that killed the two women.

However, she declined to comment, citing a request from the Belanger family to not publicly reveal any details of the case.

“I am aware that insecticide was named as the cause, but we have been asked by the Canadian embassy to not to reveal any details regarding the Belanger sisters in order to respect the privacy of the family,” she said.

“I can confirm that the autopsy results have been reported to the embassy and the family,” she added.

However, case investigator Lt Col Jongrak of Krabi City Police confirmed to the Gazette,“The case is not yet closed. We are continuing our investigation. I have been in touch with the Canadian embassy, and we have yet to question the doctor who performed the autopsies.

“We expect to conclude our investigation by the end of the month. At that time I will be able to reveal more details,” he said.

They just don't want to put any bad spin on their innocent image. Recreational drugs isn't good PR

**guyinthailand** · 05-09-2012, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by socal

They just don't want to put any bad spin on their innocent image. Recreational drugs isn't good PR

Socal: don't forget these two important points.

One: the cops are already trying to spin this as an accidental recreational drug ingestion gone awry: they say with an 'overdose' of DEET, an insect repellant which they claim is used in Thailand in 'bucket' drinks. See: if the cops can get people to actually believe DEET is willingly used in bucket drinks, then that makes any finding of DEET in the bodies appear to be some sort of 'accident'.

Two: the symptoms of the young women had do not fit those of any 'regular' recreational drug, that is, any 'drug' that doesn't involve an insect repellant/insecticide. (Plus there is the inconvenient truth that DEET doesn't cause diarrhea or hemorrhaging, both of which the sisters had).

**socal** · 05-09-2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Originally Posted by socal

They just don't want to put any bad spin on their innocent image. Recreational drugs isn't good PR

Socal: don't forget these two important points.

One: the cops are already trying to spin this as an accidental recreational drug ingestion gone awry: they say with an 'overdose' of DEET, an insect repellant which they claim is used in Thailand in 'bucket' drinks. See: if the cops can get people to actually believe DEET is willingly used in bucket drinks, then that makes any finding of DEET in the bodies appear to be some sort of 'accident'.

Two: the symptoms of the young women had do not fit those of any 'regular' recreational drug, that is, any 'drug' that doesn't involve an insect repellant/insecticide. (Plus there is the inconvenient truth that DEET doesn't cause diarrhea or hemorrhaging, both of which the sisters had).

Deet can be used on kratom plants as an insecticide. When you ingest kratom, you ingest the leaves and stem. So I don't think they are saying that Deet was put in the drinks. They are saying that Deet contaminated kratom was ingested.

Maybe some kratom plants accidentally got harvested that had been sprayed with Deet recently. I that is a good possibility.

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