Thread: Phi Phi : Canadian sisters found dead in Thai resort

The thing that distinguishes these deaths from the previous Phi Phi and Chiang Mai deaths is the bleeding.

Before they said this (about the two Canadian sisters):
"Officials said they found vomit in the room and there was haemorrhaging of the sisters' lips and gums. Their fingernails and toenails had turned blue".

Now they are saying this:
"Dr Pornthep Siriwanarangsan, head of the Disease Control Department, said the initial investigation in the room found a large quantity of vomit and faeces. There was evidence of bleeding and their nails had turned black, probably caused by internal bleeding".

food poisoning doesn't cause bleeding

mushrooms don't seem to cause bleeding--so forget mushrooms.

blowfish don't seem to cause bleeding so blowfish are probably ruled out

cyanide--no bleeding, and cyanide causes red/pink mucous membranes

organophosphate and carbamate insecticides--no bleeding so this is ruled out.

methomyl ('lannate', used by Thai killer above). no bleeding, so ruled out

arsenic doesn't fit the bill because acute (sudden) exposure doesn't cause the kind of external bleeding they had, only internal bleeding (but chronic--long-term--exposure might cause external bleeding).

so the question is which drugs or toxins can cause those symptoms.

It comes down to

Warfarin (as in rat poison)
Pit vipers (Koh Phi Phi probably has these snakes)
aluminum phosphide: either by inhalation or ingestion (150mg for 70kg person) is lethal starting at one hour after ingestion with 28 hours as the average fatal period and can cause bleeding disorders (including DIC, disseminated intravascular coagulation), so this is a distinct possibility especially since it is extremely toxic (see post above) and can kill easily via inhalation or ingestion in very, very small amounts & is used in India, for example, in a huge number of suicides and homicides. Comes in small 'wafers' that when exposed to water or stomach acids off-gas toxic phosphine gas. These 'wafers' can be set inside an AC unit in room with windows closed to kill whatever 'bugs' are in there (hence it is put in enclosed grain storage containers to kill grain-eating bugs).

Ricin, from castor beans (used by Japanese terrorists in subway attacks, remember?), as few as 5 beans can be fatal. When the active ingredient is extracted, it is considered a bio-warfare agent and is widely available and easily produced. can be disseminated as an aerosol, by injection, or as a food and water contaminant. No known antidote. But with ingestion you get bleeding from stomach and intestines and with injection you get internal bleeding, so is it likely ricin caused these deaths given the reports of blood under nails and bleeding gums?

Since Warfarin (rat poison) takes days to manifest and you have to eat a lot of it and pit vipers leave visible fang marks, these two are probably ruled out. Ricin cause INTERNAL bleeding so ricin is probably ruled out in these Canadian's deaths, since their bleeding was reported to be external (and probably internal as well).

Acute exposure: The signs and symptoms of acute exposure (i.e., for a period of one week or less) to warfarin include bloody nose; bleeding gums; muscle and joint pain; hematomas of the arms, legs, buttocks, and/or joints; frank blood in the urine and feces; anorexia, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or abdominal pain; pallor and fatigue caused by anemia; paralysis caused by intracranial hemorrhage; blurry vision, eye pain, and blindness; and/or skin lesions and petechiae. These symptoms generally do not develop until small doses have been ingested over a period of several days.
Occupational Safety and Health Guideline for Warfarin

As in animals, warfarin is most toxic when ingested in small doses over a period of 5 to 6 days; 1-2 mg/kg/day for 6 days is estimated to be lethal [Klaassen, Amdur, and Doull 1986, p. 564]. Typical rodenticides have 25mg of warfarin per 100g of pellets. The lowest reported (one-dose) lethal dose in humans is approx 7mg/kg [RTECS 1989]. So a 50kg woman would need 350 mg of warfarin as a one-time toxic dose, and since 100grams of the pellets only have 25 mg of warfarin that means they would need to eat more than a kilogram of pellets to develop sudden (acute) toxicity. Or, if eaten bit by bit for days, they would need to have been fed 200 grams per day for 5 or so days (1-2mg/kg/day x 50kg is 50mg and therefore 200 grams of pellets per day). So, rat poison is an unlikely poison for these women (unless the Thais sell a rat poison that contains a lot more warfarin than the standard 25mg per 100g pellets). However, it is theoretically possible they had an acute ingestion of the pharmaceutical for humans warfarin-type drug usually only available by prescription-- "superwarfarin" (bordifacoum, for ex)--that are 100 times more potent than warfarin. As that also takes days to develop, they would have to have had the ingestion days prior to becoming ill. So superwarfarin also seems unlikely, even though their symptoms fit both types of warfarin.

therefore
Aluminum phosphide appears to be a likely candidate.

Since it is a 'great' insecticide I can see Thai hotel owners would overlook the extreme toxicity and danger and use this to kill bedbugs. However---and this is a big however--if these Canadian deaths were truly accidental then I think we should see many more such deaths in Thailand from many more hotel owners using aluminum phosphide. Since we don't see that, murder must be presumed until proven otherwise. (and why the preponderance of Western female victims in all three poisonings especially considering it seems to be that males travel to Thailand in much higher proportions than 50/50?)

(and a shout-out goes to LatinDancer for first calling attention to Aluminum Phosphide)

Canadian sisters to be autopsied in Bangkok - The Nation

Canadian sisters to be autopsied in Bangkok

THE NATION June 20, 2012 1:00 am


Police will send the bodies of two Canadian sisters who died mysteriously at a hotel on Phi Phi Island to Ramathibodi Hospital in Bangkok for autopsies.

Audrey and Noemi Belanger were found dead at the Palm Residence Hotel last Friday. Both were in their 20s.

The autopsies will be conducted at Ramathibodi Hospital as per a request by the Canadian Embassy.

Institute of Forensic Medicine commander Maj-General Somboon Tantrakul said yesterday the bodies were initially sent to his institute by the Muang Krabi Police Station but would be forwarded to the hospital.

"The embassy has been in contact with Ramathibodi Hospital before. So, we will provide ambulances and send the bodies to the hospital," Somboon said.

Meanwhile, the Epidemiology Bureau dispatched a team to check shops and communities on Phi Phi Island to gather environmental evidence.

"At this point, we cannot determine the cause of their deaths yet. We have to further examine the samples of environmental data," Dr Jakrat Phittayawong-anon said. He reckoned it was possible the young women may have inadvertently eaten food tainted with pesticide.

So far, he said it was not clear which shops or restaurants they went to during their stay on the island.

He said the Canadians had visited Chiang Mai and Phuket before arriving on Phi Phi Island on June 12.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Canadian sisters to be autopsied in Bangkok - The Nation

Canadian sisters to be autopsied in Bangkok

THE NATION June 20, 2012 1:00 am


Police will send the bodies of two Canadian sisters who died mysteriously at a hotel on Phi Phi Island to Ramathibodi Hospital in Bangkok for autopsies.

Audrey and Noemi Belanger were found dead at the Palm Residence Hotel last Friday. Both were in their 20s.

The autopsies will be conducted at Ramathibodi Hospital as per a request by the Canadian Embassy.

Institute of Forensic Medicine commander Maj-General Somboon Tantrakul said yesterday the bodies were initially sent to his institute by the Muang Krabi Police Station but would be forwarded to the hospital.

"The embassy has been in contact with Ramathibodi Hospital before. So, we will provide ambulances and send the bodies to the hospital," Somboon said.

Meanwhile, the Epidemiology Bureau dispatched a team to check shops and communities on Phi Phi Island to gather environmental evidence.

"At this point, we cannot determine the cause of their deaths yet. We have to further examine the samples of environmental data," Dr Jakrat Phittayawong-anon said. He reckoned it was possible the young women may have inadvertently eaten food tainted with pesticide.

So far, he said it was not clear which shops or restaurants they went to during their stay on the island.

He said the Canadians had visited Chiang Mai and Phuket before arriving on Phi Phi Island on June 12.

What a picture for family and friends to find on the net! Even one of the body bags seems to be open. This lack of sensitivity is very unnerving. I am still shocked that Thai's do not see this as sort of media coverage as unnecessary and in very poor and hurtful taste.