Thread: Phi Phi : Canadian sisters found dead in Thai resort

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Hmm , I'm a bit of a newcomer to this forum ,but hardly a newcomer to Thailand ,I have read the thread from start to finish of all the "theory's" etc ,but on reading Hypatia's post#614 ,sadly I have to nod my head in full agreement to it, because in a nutshell it just about says it all (IMHO) !.

Gosh, thanks, What did I say?
Oh dehydration, yes after vomiting..

GiT I agree many many many are being poisoned, I'm not sure it's always meant to kill, but as a say let's give them diarrhea for complaining about lunch.
My point is each will have different symptoms, and dehydration is a major factor. Vomiting causes dehydration, leads to organ failure and the state of health is also a factor in how the body begins to shut down.
So to look for one set of symptoms and align it with one poison is fruitless.
Probably all kinds of poisons being used.
What's important is that it is happening, a lot and still we are being told it is not connected or relevant.

more "cures" ? (for what i understand...)

Lemon balm - enhances cholinesterase receptors

"white flood" or similar (nitric oxide)

hese results show that inhibition of NOS, as well as neuronal NOS, significantly reduces AChE inhibitor-induced muscle cell degeneration, suggesting that increased nitric oxide production mediates such myopathy.

Originally Posted by alitongkat

, its NOT recommended to give activated charcoal, i

If the patient has no breathing difficulties and has recently swallowed the poison and you are far from a hospital, then activated charcoal is absolutely recommended.

the risk you run in having them eat an entire bottle (100 caps, minimum, for a large ingestion) is that they could start to vomit and aspirate the stuff--dangerous if you're not near a hospital where patient can be intubated to support breathing. But you have to 'risk' it if you can't get patient to hospital soon.

It is ideal to go to a hospital ASAP and let them give the charcoal there while being prepared to intubate.

Charcoal can easily save the life of someone recently poisoned with just about any poison EXCEPT: Activated carbon does not bind well to certain chemicals, including alcohols, glycols, strong acids and bases, metals and most inorganics, such as lithium, sodium, iron, lead, arsenic, fluorine, and boric acid.

Originally Posted by alitongkat

so we have to assume, they were tested and no carbamite was found...

I mentioned earlier that carbamates are hard to detect post mortem. For the test, marker cholinesterase is used and since carbamate-cholinesterase bond is reversible all by itself, by the time they test it, everything seems back to normal.

But maybe they have some new techniques now.

Originally Posted by alitongkat

its not true... some of the cases must have been extensively tested, as they spent hours in hospital before they died/survived...

phi phi: 1 girl survived (treated, 20something), one died at arrival in the hospital... (scandinavian and american)

phuket(?): arabian girl (20something), flue like symptoms, hospital, released, dead next morning

cambodia: 2 girls (end 20s), both in hospital, one died in hospital, the other one too, 2 days later or so...

chiang mai: at least two girls (20s) in hospital, one died there

plenty of tests and immediate autopsy possible...

as ALL of them died of "unknown" causes in a local hospital, it CANT have been methomyl...

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Originally Posted by alitongkat

so we have to assume, they were tested and no carbamite was found...

I mentioned earlier that carbamates are hard to detect post mortem. For the test, marker cholinesterase is used and since carbamate-cholinesterase bond is reversible all by itself, by the time they test it, everything seems back to normal.

But maybe they have some new techniques now.

Ok.... the debate has devolved into an interesting point. Let's try to find out the reality of it, shall we ? Perhaps I should phone a poisons information centre here in Australia ?
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carbamates ARE hard to detect...

its because its a "reversible" thing, that means, in the first hour there is a high "value", and a few hours later its "reversed" (back to normal)...

but nevertheless, you will die of it...

so this means, it DOES DO something (more)...
its not only about diminishing the liver enzyme, but it has destructive effects (on cells...)

so this destruction must be able to see, even though the enzyme is back to almost normal values... (normal is btw dependend on the individual, some have higher normals, others lower...)...

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Quote: Originally Posted by superman View Post Atropine is not an actual antidote for organophosphate poisoning . However, by blocking the action of acetylcholine at muscarinic receptors, atropine also serves as a treatment for poisoning by organophosphate insecticides and nerve gases. "An antidote is a substance which can counteract a form of poisoning".[1] Antidote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Atropine is an antidote to both types of poisoning.

Atropine is not an actual antidote for organophosphate poisoning.

Atropine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deaths Of Quebec Women In Thailand May Have Been Caused By Pesticide
03/13/2014

A highly toxic pesticide used to control bedbugs in some holiday hotels in Asia may have caused the mysterious deaths of two Quebec sisters travelling in Thailand as well as several other tourists, according to new evidence from a joint investigation by CBC’s the fifth estate and Radio-Canada’s Enquete.

Audrey and Noémi Bélanger set off on a trip through Thailand in 2012. Days after they arrived at the popular tourist destination of Phi Phi Island, a maid found the sisters dead in their hotel room. Both were covered in vomit, with their fingernails and toenails tinged blue.

“I let out a scream for my older girl and I let out a scream for my youngest. I didn’t know what else to do,” said their mother, Linda Bélanger, upon hearing the news.

At the time, local authorities suggested several possible causes, from food poisoning to drugs. The Bélangers requested that the Quebec coroner do an autopsy on their daughters. Almost two years since the autopsy was performed, the results have not been released. They are expected to be made public in June.

The CBC/Radio-Canada investigation received a tip about what may have killed the sisters that points to a lethal pesticide called aluminum phosphide.

In Canada, the use of this pesticide is strictly regulated, and fumigators must get six months of training before they can handle it. Denis Bureau, a fumigation specialist in Quebec who is licensed to use it, told the fifth estate’s Mark Kelley that it could kill a human in less than two hours if the concentration is high enough.

“If you’re asleep in the room next to it or in the room where it’s been under fumigation, you’ll be dead in a few hours,” he said.

Bureau said aluminum phosphide is commonly used to kill insects in large spaces such as grain silos or ship cargo holds. In Canada, it is not permitted to be used in spaces like homes or hotels. It is typically found in the form of pellets that, once exposed to air and moisture, release a poisonous gas called phosphine.

In Thailand, authorities told the CBC/Radio-Canada investigation that the use of aluminum phosphide in hotels is strictly forbidden.

A team from ​Enquête went undercover to visit seven pest control companies in Thailand to see if it is possible to get the pesticide for use in a hotel.

Employees at most of the companies said they did not use this pesticide in hotels. But at one company, the owner explained how simple it is to use aluminum phosphide pellets to kill bedbugs in a hotel or guest house. After three days, she said a room fumigated with aluminum phosphide would be safe to sleep in.

Not the only victims

The CBC/Radio-Canada investigation learned that the Bélanger sisters are not the only travellers whose deaths may be linked to this pesticide. In May of 2009, two other tourists staying on Phi Phi Island also died mysteriously.​

Norwegian Julia Bergheim and American Jill St. Onge were staying in adjacent rooms at the Laleena Guest House, and they experienced similar symptoms including vomiting, dizziness and blue fingernails and toenails. Both were dead within 24 hours.

Four years after her daughter’s death, Bergheim’s mother, Ina Thoresen, received a report from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health. Authorities there had consulted with leading experts from around the world about what happened to her daughter. Though they could not state the exact cause of Bergheim’s death, they concluded that the most likely cause was poisoning from the phosphine gas released by the pesticide.

The Norwegian report also states that Canadian medical examiners found traces of the gas from aluminum phosphide in the bodies of the Bélanger sisters.

Toxicologist Joel Mayer said that the symptoms experienced by the Bélanger sisters, Bergheim and St. Onge are typical of someone exposed to aluminum phosphide.

Mayer said blue fingernails and toenails are a classic sign of oxygen deprivation.

“It’s a respiratory poison, affecting the transport of oxygen … or interfering with the utilization of oxygen by various cells in the body,” he told Kelley.

In all, since 2009, there have been about a dozen suspicious deaths of other tourists in Thailand, some of which may be linked to the misuse of pesticides.

In 2011, four people staying in a hotel in the northern Thai city of Chiang Mai died within a few days. After those deaths, a Thai investigation suggested pesticides might have been the cause, and recommended further study of the risk.

'One of the emerging problems'

At Thailand’s Ministry of Health, Dr. Pasakron Akarasew said there is growing concern about pesticides.

“Chemical poisoning is one of the emerging problems. So we hope we can do the job better in the future,” he said.

He seemed surprised to hear that aluminum phosphide might be used in hotel rooms, since it is dangerous and illegal.

Still, he said Thailand is as safe as any other country.

“I may travel someplace and get the same problem,” he said. “I may go to Europe, Canada, Australia and can get the same problem like this.”

But Thoresen, Julia Bergheim’s mother, does not believe that Thailand is a safe place to visit.

“It’s a calculated risk to go to Thailand. You think that it’s safe to go there, but it’s not,” she said. “If anything happens, then you can’t get the help that you will get at home. Not from the police, not from the authorities, maybe not in the hospitals. I don’t know, that’s my experience.”

Last October, Carl and Linda Bélanger got a letter of condolence from the Thai Ministry of Tourism and Sports. In it, they were offered the equivalent of about $20,000 US in insurance coverage to compensate for their loss.

The Bélangers refused the money, and told Kelley the letter will not stop them from speaking out about what happened to their daughters. They want to put pressure on Thai authorities to prevent more deaths.

“If it was really a pesticide that was put in the bedroom and it was that powerful, it was negligence,” said Linda Bélanger. “I don’t want there to be any more people who die due to negligence.”

huffingtonpost.ca

Originally Posted by Mid

In Thailand, authorities told the CBC/Radio-Canada investigation that the use of aluminum phosphide in hotels is strictly forbidden.

a small IR driven chromatograph that you can plug into the microUSB port on your phone may be an essential travel item

iPhone turns into a spectrometer - News - spectroscopyNOW.com

Give yourself a Blue Peter badge mate, pesticide was identified as the killer ages ago.

They even raided the pest control company that did the spraying, so they knew as well.

Ah, but they were talking about chlorpyrifos ! People don't spray aluminium phosphide.

Like it matters now.

Looks like a few TD posters may have got it right:

Still not 100% certain but it looks as good as it's going to get.

The Globe and Mail March 2, 2015

The same type of pesticide that killed two children in Fort McMurray last month has been identified by a coroner as the possible culprit in the death of two Quebec sisters who were found unconscious in their Thailand hotel room in 2012.

In a report released Monday, the coroner Renée Roussel said phosphine, the gas released by aluminum phosphide, is the most likely poison that killed killed Audrey Bélanger, 20, and her sister Noémi, 25, while they were staying on Phi Phi Islands.

The two sisters from Pohénégamook, Que., were part of a cluster of travellers who died in unexplained circumstances in Southeast Asia.

Dr. Roussel said she was unable to formally confirm phosphine's role because it left no traces in the remains of the Bélanger sisters. Lengthy toxicology tests failed to find signs of nearly 800 possible poisonous chemicals, Dr. Roussel told reporters as she released her report Monday.

The only substances the toxicology tests detected were proguanil, a medication to prevent malaria, and N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide, the insect repellent widely known as Deet.

The Thai autopsy initially blamed Deet as the cause of death. However, the Deet levels found in the sisters’ blood was too low to be toxic and were consistent with the substance being applied in normal doses on the skin, Dr. Roussel said.

The investigation then looked at substances that could kill quickly but would be so volatile they wouldn’t leave traces. Dr. Roussel said this pointed at aluminum phosphide. A dangerous but cheap farming pesticide, aluminum phosphide is widely used in developing countries.

When exposed to moisture in the air, aluminum phosphide releases a toxic gas, phosphine. Last month, a two-year-old boy, Zia Hassan, and his eight-month-old sister, Zara, died after their parents used phosphine brought into Canada from Pakistan to try to fumigate their Fort McMurray, Alta., apartment.

Following the two children's death, Health Canada said phosphine pesticides can only be sold to licensed professionals and are not approved for use against bedbugs.
Similarly, in Thailand, it is illegal to use phosphine indoors, but Dr. Roussel said “we believe it was likely used anyway.”

Her report noted that the region's innkeepers struggle to contain insects, especially bedbugs in hotel rooms. Brain-cell samples from the sisters showed signs of trauma caused by an acute lack of oxygen, a symptom consistent with exposure to aluminum phosphide, the coroner said.

Her report noted that, since 2009, about 20 foreign travellers have died in similar fashion in southeast Asia. Two women, Julie Bergheim of Norway and Jill St. Onge of the United States, died in 2009 at another hotel in Phi Phi, with symptoms similar to the Bélanger sisters.

The report said FBI agents consulted Canadian investigators and came to similar conclusions pointing at aluminum phosphide.

It seems that aluminum phosphide poisoning was the cause of death in the unexplained fatalities in this case and in Chiang Mai.

The use of this pesticide is prohibited in public places here in Thailand but then, that means nothing in a country which has no rule of law, a dysfunctional judiciary and no effective enforcement of any legislation of any sort.

Travellers should be made aware by their embassies that accommodation in the lower end of the market here could prove fatal given the reckless stupidity of their owners.

Certainly, any attempt to gain compensation through litigation here would be as futile as Quasimodo getting a freebie from Dirty Noi because he had a hunch she was nice.

Originally Posted by baldrick

Originally Posted by Mid

In Thailand, authorities told the CBC/Radio-Canada investigation that the use of aluminum phosphide in hotels is strictly forbidden.

a small IR driven chromatograph that you can plug into the microUSB port on your phone may be an essential travel item

iPhone turns into a spectrometer - News - spectroscopyNOW.com

Excellent, can add that to the amateur sleuth kit and get the CSI:TD Junior Detective badge!

Great detective work by the TD sleuthes , boi gives you credit for cracking this case.

Well done guys.

Originally Posted by taxexile

I am in the uk now, and missing thailand intensely. The easygoing chaos, the friendliness of most of the social exchanges and the sheer attractiveness of the people.

The ugliness and obesity that surrounds me on the streets here is nauseating, the streets of the town centre are awash with fat freaks,strange looking youth with facial piercings and frightening stares, and worst of all, decrepit poverty stricken pensioners with crooked backs and thirty year old raincoats, lined puffy faces and gloomy sunken eyes, hobbling into and out of the pound stores carrying ripped plastic shopping bags, admittedly I am in an ugly northern town, and the leafy suburbs where I am billeted are quite pleasant, but as soon as my obligations here have been undertaken I shall head off for the countryside, and no country on earth can beat the english at countryside.

Trawling through this old thread I came across this little gem from Tax. It seems he has since had some sort of epiphany and is now content to be just another old codger among many. A victim of those decrepit northern body snatchers no doubt.

You spelled trolling incorrectly, old bean...You're welcome...