Thread: Phi Phi : Canadian sisters found dead in Thai resort

Methomyl--the most used pesticide in Thailand for suicides and homicides--is a carbamate pesticide and, as can be seen from the following, is not easy to detect forensically post-mortem. The pesticides that are organophosphorous based are, in contrast, easier to detect post mortem.

Below are excerpts from:
Review
“The goal of this review is to summarize clinical and post-mortem aspects that should be considered in forensic investigations of suspected methomyl intoxications”.

Clinical and Post Mortem Aspects of Methomyl Intoxication
Kelly Bergsa, Ed Penningsb, Remco Westerinka
Institute for Risk Assessment Sciences, Utrecht, The Netherlands
Dutch Forensic Institute, The Hague, The Netherlands (approx. 2010)

Saiyed et al. concluded that the T-wave changes were the result of direct cardiac toxicity of methomyl because the inhibition of cholinesterase activity was minimal (± 15%) and such changes were not commonly observed following severe exposure of other anti-cholinesterase compounds.

Under normal physiological conditions, acetylcholinesterase catalyzes the breakdown of acetylcholine that is the neurotransmitter responsible for propagation of nerve impulses at the site of cholinergic transmission. However, its physiological role in blood is not understood.

…activity and methomyl concentration. Also, the same analytical techniques are used for these parameters. However, when the concentrations of methomyl in biological samples decrease due to post mortem reactions, the detection of this pesticide may become difficult. Methomyl is a sulfur containing compound and is instable in frozen post mortem biological samples. Biological specimens must therefore be treated with preservatives and be frozen to a temperature lower than -20°C if not immediately analyzed, in order to reduce losses of the analyte.

Interpretation of the information given in this review is difficult due to a number of reasons. First, the number of articles published on methomyl intoxication is limited. Secondly, methomyl is an instable compound, even in frozen post mortem biological samples. Thirdly, the cases described often lack information. For instance, on the delay between methomyl exposure and diagnostic testing, or the amount of methomyl the person was exposed to. Fourthly, it is often hard to distinguish aspects of methomyl intoxications from aspects of intoxications with other carbamates, or even organophospates.

As mentioned in paragraph 3.4, methomyl is an unstable compound and it tends to dissociate on gas chromatography column to its oxime. Therefore, it is not advisable to measure this pesticide with gas chromatography in human tissues for purposes of forensic toxicological examinations.

Metabolites can be used to determine if the original compound was present in the human body. They might also give an indication of the size of the dose of the original compound, and the time past since the exposure. However, the metabolism of methomyl in humans is largely unknown. The two main metabolites of methomyl in animals, acetamide and acetonitrile, have small residue levels. If the same is true for humans, they are probably not adequate as indices for methomyl intoxication. Further research might reveal if other, more suitable metabolites are present in humans to determine if methomyl intoxication took place.

Methomyl is rapidly metabolized because of its easy degradation and lack of chemical stability. Its elimination is also fast. Therefore, the detection of this pesticide may become difficult. Methomyl is even unstable in frozen post mortem biological samples. Biological specimens must, therefore, be treated with preservatives and be frozen to a temperature lower than -20°C if not immediately analyzed, in order to reduce losses of the analyte.

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...254_Thesis.pdf

Oh for fuck's sake, are you totally rabid or is it just your hobby?

Drinking that shit will make you keel over and fuck up your lungs leading to a quick death after a bit of time flopping about the place.

Colonel Mustard didn't do it.

Why don't you fuck off and have a holiday in some morgue or other. Freak.

thegent don't you know you can't argue with Dr. House, TD's resident internet expert CSI?

bENT is upset that I outed him in the ENT vs Lantindancer thread.

Thankfully I am recovering well from dengue fever. My last couple of weeks of enforced inactivity have been made tolerable by the entertainment available through TD forums.

It's better than Tom and Jerry!
(Although at times it lacks their sophistication).

[quote=guyinthailand;2158221]

Originally Posted by thegent

Oh for fuck's sake, are you totally rabid or is it just your hobby?

Drinking that shit will make you keel over and fuck up your lungs leading to a quick death after a bit of time flopping about the place.

Colonel Mustard didn't do it.

Why don't you fuck off and have a holiday in some morgue or other. Freak.

Tourists, mostly young women, are being murdered with no satisfactory investigation

No evidnece of murder. Young women are not as tough as young men. They are more likely to die when faced with anomalous situations.

In point of fact, the Thai ‘authorities’ have, since the first murders on Koh Phi Phi in 2009, dredged up every conceivable excuse for these deaths—food poisoning, toxic seafood, puffer fish, viral, party drugs, dirty water, ‘coinicidence’, accidental pesticides, dengue, cholera, mushrooms, etc, etc.

Non Thai authorities have also looked at these cases and done autopsies with the same inconclusive result.

Originally Posted by socal

Non Thai authorities have also looked at these cases and done autopsies with the same inconclusive result.

Oh fuck, Dr. House now has Sherlock Holmes on the case.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by socal

Non Thai authorities have also looked at these cases and done autopsies with the same inconclusive result.

Oh fuck, Dr. House now has Sherlock Holmes on the case.

U didn't Even read my post you fuckless idiot. I didn't postulate anything about the deaths.

My sincere condolences to the girls family and close friends, this is a terrible time for you all.
I am a UK lawyer working in China and visited Phuket last week for 60 day exit rotation visa purposes. Whilst there, many people were discussing this tragic, but unfortunately not uncommon incident.
I also read in the Phuket Gazette July 14 page 3, that officers in two different police districts had told the Gazette that the Royal Thai Police Headquarters had issued a directive that police were not allowed to generally release any information to the media.

The difficulty we have here is the distinctly different cultures in the interpretation of the rule of law. In the west we strive for transparency in sudden death cases where it appears here the first priority is not to affect the tourism industry. When will the Thai authorities understand, if their main tourism target countries are Western then investigations and justice needs to be done to incorporate the expectations of the Westerner.
In the absence of complete closure in this case, tourism is already being affected, I personally have friends who are not visiting Thailand due to the recent deaths here.

Let's face facts, when the girls arrived in Thailand they were fine, hours later they were tragically lost, someone knows the facts surrounding what happened here as whichever way you look at it there is a third party involvement to some degree.
Word of advice to the Thai authorities, your tourism is already being severely affected here so stop concentrating on media releases blaming Westerners or the girls themselves and get to the bottom of what is going on in your jurisdiction, if there is a date drugger at large or underworld dangerous cocktails being prepared, investigate and be transparent as you will receive much more respect and confidence from the world, instead of these diluted attempts to preserve confidence in your tourist industry.
Do the right thing and take proper ownership of this case before complete confidence is lost in your judicial system.

Originally Posted by Mikos

My sincere condolences to the girls family and close friends, this is a terrible time for you all.
I am a UK lawyer working in China and visited Phuket last week for 60 day exit rotation visa purposes. Whilst there, many people were discussing this tragic, but unfortunately not uncommon incident.
I also read in the Phuket Gazette July 14 page 3, that officers in two different police districts had told the Gazette that the Royal Thai Police Headquarters had issued a directive that police were not allowed to generally release any information to the media.

The difficulty we have here is the distinctly different cultures in the interpretation of the rule of law. In the west we strive for transparency in sudden death cases where it appears here the first priority is not to affect the tourism industry. When will the Thai authorities understand, if their main tourism target countries are Western then investigations and justice needs to be done to incorporate the expectations of the Westerner.
In the absence of complete closure in this case, tourism is already being affected, I personally have friends who are not visiting Thailand due to the recent deaths here.

Let's face facts, when the girls arrived in Thailand they were fine, hours later they were tragically lost, someone knows the facts surrounding what happened here as whichever way you look at it there is a third party involvement to some degree.
Word of advice to the Thai authorities, your tourism is already being severely affected here so stop concentrating on media releases blaming Westerners or the girls themselves and get to the bottom of what is going on in your jurisdiction, if there is a date drugger at large or underworld dangerous cocktails being prepared, investigate and be transparent as you will receive much more respect and confidence from the world, instead of these diluted attempts to preserve confidence in your tourist industry.
Do the right thing and take proper ownership of this case before complete confidence is lost in your judicial system.

I don't think the Thai authorities could do anything more then get foreign authorities to do the autopsies which they did. And they got the same inconclusive result.

Its a failure of science.

Thailand will be Thailand. There is many other reasons why tourism may or may not be slowing down.

The problem in this case is that coupled to the length of time it took to raise the alarm ( anything up to 36 hours depending upon which report ) the subsequent delay in transferring the bodies to the foreign jurisdiction meant that a full post mortem by their possibly more competent authorities could not be conducted.

And that will always be the problem in these types of death. One can never be certain of the competence of the Thai but corroboration by other pathologists is undermined by the passage of time, a factor quite crucial in determining cause of death by poisonous substances.

In the absence of such evidence the opportunity inevitably arises for wild conjecture and even hysterical notions of serial murder as propounded by cyber fantasists here weaned on a diet of Hollywood pap and this latest case has proved no exception.

It also provides the Thai authorities with the opportunity to cover up fuck ups.

Originally Posted by thegent

The problem in this case is that coupled to the length of time it took to raise the alarm ( anything up to 36 hours depending upon which report ) the subsequent delay in transferring the bodies to the foreign jurisdiction meant that a full post mortem by their possibly more competent authorities could not be conducted.

And that will always be the problem in these types of death. One can never be certain of the competence of the Thai but corroboration by other pathologists is undermined by the passage of time, a factor quite crucial in determining cause of death by poisonous substances.

In the absence of such evidence the opportunity inevitably arises for wild conjecture and even hysterical notions of serial murder as propounded by cyber fantasists here weaned on a diet of Hollywood pap and this latest case has proved no exception.

Considering the medical tourism industry in Thailand, I wouldn't be so sure that some broke Euro or California state coroner would be more competent then Thais

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

It also provides the Thai authorities with the opportunity to cover up fuck ups.

Do u really think this inconclusive BS is a good outcome ? I bet they would rather have a clear answer. Then they could at least show they are trying to make it safer.

You don't really understand how Thais think, do you?

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

You don't really understand how Thais think, do you?

If these commi farangs are so smart, why couldn't they find the Thais "coverup" ?

^Not bad, Socal...not bad...

Originally Posted by thegent

The problem in this case is that coupled to the length of time it took to raise the alarm ( anything up to 36 hours depending upon which report ) the subsequent delay in transferring the bodies to the foreign jurisdiction meant that a full post mortem by their possibly more competent authorities could not be conducted.

And that will always be the problem in these types of death. One can never be certain of the competence of the Thai but corroboration by other pathologists is undermined by the passage of time, a factor quite crucial in determining cause of death by poisonous substances.

In the absence of such evidence the opportunity inevitably arises for wild conjecture and even hysterical notions of serial murder as propounded by cyber fantasists here weaned on a diet of Hollywood pap and this latest case has proved no exception.

And BTW , nobody noticed sylvester stallones douche kid was dead for 3 days.

I'm no expert and I'm not even an enthusiastic amateur, but I do know that it's pulmonary oedema.

I am not denying you are an expert but my experience is that in general, experts in such a field would not engage in public speculation without first hand knowledge. It is at least unethical.

On the other hand, if you have first hand knowledge, I apologise and recommend the government pays you more money.