Thread: PNAC shutdown

Originally Posted by Butterfly

The article calls not for a withdrawal of US troops but for an increase. President Bush's decision is expected in early January.

So, it's not the end of the neo-con saga, yet.

I won't dismiss this 21st century extremist surge until sentencing by an American or Iraqi court to hanging or lethal injections will signal 'closure'.

these wackos have already been pushed back to the periphery where they belong.....only a 'leader' as weak as bush would have allowed them to run amok like they did.

These PNAC scumbags are not gone, just plotting their next war. Here's a quote from Pat Buchanan's column today:
"Conspicuous by its absence from disparagements of the president by these deserters from his camp and cause is any sense that they were themselves wrong. That they, who accuse everyone else of cutting and running, are themselves cutting and running. That they are themselves but a typical cluster of think-tank incompetents. No neocon concedes that the very idea itself of launching an unprovoked war against a country in the heart of the Arab world – one that had not attacked us, did not threaten us and did not want war with us – might not be wildly welcomed by the liberated..... Almost all the neoconservatives have now departed the seats of power in the Bush administration and retreated to their sinecures at Washington think tanks, to plot the next war – on Iran."

^ he is dillusional, they might go underground, but they are finished. With a failure like that, nobody in any new administration will believe them. Unless Iran start launching Nuclear missiles into the US. Not likely to happen, yet.

This is the last resistants, trying desperate solutions for a desperate situation. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see a complete withdrawal right after that surge.

Here is a list of ideas held by Neocons: (Someone else's list.)

Welcome to the Project for the New American Century

Here is a great summation:

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:

They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.

They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.

They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.

They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hardball politics is a moral necessity.

They express no opposition to the welfare state.

They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.

They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.

They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.

They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.

They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill advised.

They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.

They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.

Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.

9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.

They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)

They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.

They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

Unfortunately it doesn’t really make that much difference whether or not any particular cabal holds power. Don’t forget that it was during the (laughably named Democratic) Clinton administration that Madeleine Albright said of the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children, caused by US-UK sanctions, “we think the price is worth it”; that it was Kennedy & Johnson who really got things going in Vietnam (another 3,000,000 dead there, thanks very much) or that it was one-time Socialist Tony Blair (Clause 4 anyone?) who lead his Christian Soldiers into the fiasco of Iraq. Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Labour, if you’re not white, as far as these fuckers are concerned, you’ve got only two options – either you cut your own throat or they’ll do it for you.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

In light of the radical Islamo problem that's going on, she ain't far off in that statement either, eh?

In light of the fact the US is struggling on 3 fronts - 2 away, 1 at home - yes she is. She's about 1,345.67 miles off the mark actually.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

In light of the radical Islamo problem that's going on, she ain't far off in that statement either, eh?

In light of the fact the US is struggling on 3 fronts - 2 away, 1 at home - yes she is. She's about 1,345.67 miles off the mark actually.

Uh...you got, like, some backup for this statement 'struggling at home' or just another mushy-headed liberal brain-fart? BTW, sneering is not an argument, but as a political matter, it's often argument enough...

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

In light of the radical Islamo problem that's going on, she ain't far off in that statement either, eh?

In light of the fact the US is struggling on 3 fronts - 2 away, 1 at home - yes she is. She's about 1,345.67 miles off the mark actually.

Uh...you got, like, some backup for this statement 'struggling at home' or just another mushy-headed liberal brain-fart? BTW, sneering is not an argument, but as a political matter, it's often argument enough...

Booners,

Can you be specific, while you ask him to be specific.

Or do you have a hunch of what he's referring to?

I am not above Gloating, and I was right all along.
The plurality of the American system will produce better results in future, but those Neo-con's are beneath contempt.

Originally Posted by sabang

I am not above Gloating, and I was right all along.
The plurality of the American system will produce better results in future, but those Neo-con's are beneath contempt.

More so than the 'lady' featured above...

Originally Posted by sabang

The plurality of the American system will produce better results in future, but those Neo-con's are beneath contempt.

If the past is any kind of guide to the future, your optimism is wholly misplaced. So what if the PNAC is washed down the toilet? So what if a Democrat is elected President? Other than allowing a bunch of self-indulgent liberals to feel good about themselves (or allowing equally self-indulgent conservatives to froth at the mouth), do you really think it's going to any difference to the world? Capitalism isn't going to stop until it's consumed the biosphere; at this point, quite who is at the controls of this runaway train is completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Gerontion

If the past is any kind of guide to the future, your optimism is wholly misplaced. So what if the PNAC is washed down the toilet?

The PNAC will not have as many member in government after W. Bush leaves, but the PNAC will still be a force.

Some members (as already) will go to the AEI.

The PNAC will be weakened, but the die-hard will continue to write, and work in and around, government.

Originally Posted by Gerontion

Originally Posted by sabang

The plurality of the American system will produce better results in future, but those Neo-con's are beneath contempt.

If the past is any kind of guide to the future, your optimism is wholly misplaced. So what if the PNAC is washed down the toilet? So what if a Democrat is elected President? Other than allowing a bunch of self-indulgent liberals to feel good about themselves (or allowing equally self-indulgent conservatives to froth at the mouth), do you really think it's going to any difference to the world? Capitalism isn't going to stop until it's consumed the biosphere; at this point, quite who is at the controls of this runaway train is completely irrelevant.

I'm sure I won't agree with all future US government decisions and policies, but thats not my point.

I think the Far Right of American politics is downright dangerous. They seem to live in this surreal vaccuum, believing that Freedom and Democracy can be spread by force, and justified by the flimsiest of pretexts.
Meanwhile, they downgrade the rights and freedoms of their own citizens and engage in widespread covert surveillance, illegal detention and torture- demeaning the value of that Democracy they are trying to spread.
They land their nation in a debt trap that will take several years to unravel, meanwhile generously enriching themselves.
Their version of 'foreign policy' is attempting to bully and browbeat other nations and the UN, succeeding only in pissing them off.

I hope the American voting public and Republican party will put the Neo-con's and their ilk firmly back at the loony fringe of politics where they belong. That is exactly what they were called under the first Bush administration- 'The Loonies'.

I’m not going to argue with you about how psychopathic the current Republican administration is but it’s a fallacy to think that because the Republicans are bad then the Democrats are good. They’re just two palace factions, both situated firmly within the Capitalist Party, exaggerating minor and obscure doctrinal differences in the expectation that by doing so they will garner support. “Hope is the leash of submission” Raoul Vaneigem said and he was right. Do you really think that this time, the Democrats aren’t going to accelerate the enslavement of the world’s poor? This time around, are they going to do anything about the fact that 25% to 50% of all species are forecast to be extinct by the end of this century? Unlike Clinton (and Gore for Christ sake) do you expect to hear a Democrat say, “Climate change is real and it’s caused by selfish, rich fucks like you and me. We have to cut CO2 emissions by 90% and we have to do this now.”? Will any Democrat stand up to his or her paymasters in international capital and say, “Fuck you. I’m not going to do your bidding any longer. I’m not going to destroy the planet and all her human and non-human inhabitants. I’m not going to use M16s and B52s to kill indigenous peoples, to wipe out countless species, to force our hateful vision of the world on all, to steal and plunder as we choose”? Dream on.

To quote Derrick Jensen, “Civilization is not redeemable. This culture will not undergo any sort of voluntary transformation to a sane and sustainable way of living. If we do not put a halt to it, civilization will continue to immiserate the vast majority of humans and to degrade the planet until it (civilization, and probably the planet) collapses.” This seems self-evidently true. Western ‘democratic’ politics is just a peculiar soap opera intended to distract us from the truth – and consequences – of this statement.