Thread: The Libyan Crisis

Originally Posted by Panda

It was purely a move to cripple Gaddafi's ability to resist the western backed rebels advance.

Quickly, I believe a term often used.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by sabang

Absolutely- you've been caught out, and you know it.

you are raving mad, sab

an army or a police force have the legal right to shoot their own people when they are facing a violent revolt. Sadly, Thailand is not alone in that regard.

OBL shooting was illegal and we all know it. But without anyone to enforce the "legality" of such things, above all when the top policeman is doing the shooting himself, it becomes "acceptable"

Thing is that USA sanctions state sponsored terrorism against the population in countries that are useful allies such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Thailand.

Yea the assassination of Sae Daeng was murder as was the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. To stoop to such illegal acts makes such governments who carry out such acts no better than terrorists themselves.

You cant pick and choose in which countries its OK for the government to murder its own people lest you be seen as a total hypocrite.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says he is "outraged" by Libya's deadly crackdown on anti-government protesters, and told Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to stop the violence "immediately."

Speaking on a visit to Los Angeles Monday, Ban said he had a 40-minute phone conversation with Gadhafi earlier in the day and "forcefully" urged the Libyan leader to end attacks on demonstrators by the security forces. Ban said Gadhafi responded by "explaining and characterizing" events.

Ban said he has seen "very disturbing and shocking scenes" of Libyan security forces firing at protesters with warplanes and helicopters, actions he termed a "serious violation of international humanitarian law." He said he told Gadhafi that human rights, freedom of assembly and freedom of speech must be "fully protected."

The U.N. Security Council is due to hold emergency consultations on the turmoil in Libya Tuesday morning. Libya's deputy U.N. ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi requested the meeting after turning against Mr. Gadhafi and calling for him to be ousted.

Dabbashi said he and other Libyan diplomats in New York want international action to stop the Libyan leader from committing what they labeled a "genocide" against the Libyan people.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Monday Washington joins the international community in "strongly condemning" what she called "unacceptable bloodshed" in Libya. She said the Obama administration is working "urgently" to send Libya's government a message that it must respect "universal rights" of free expression and assembly.

Earlier, the U.S. State Department warned Americans to defer all travel to Libya due to the ongoing unrest, and urged those in the country to limit their movements and seek shelter, especially after dark.

Qatari Prime Minister Hamad bin Jasim bin Jabr al-Thani appealed for immediate international action to end the Libyan crackdown and called for an Arab League meeting on Tuesday to discuss the crisis. The group's secretary-general, Amr Moussa, also demanded an end to the violence, saying he sees the Libyan protesters' demands as legitimate.

An international coalition of human rights groups made a similar appeal for urgent global efforts to stop what they called "mass atrocities now being perpetrated by the Libyan government against its own people." The coalition also asked the United Nations to eject Libya from the Geneva-based Human Rights Council.

British Prime Minister David Cameron described the Libyan crackdown as "appalling" and a "most vicious form of repression." French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned what he called the "unacceptable use of force" in Libya.

Iran's Foreign Ministry also condemned Libya for suppressing what it called the "righteous demands" of Libyans engaging in a regional Islamic awakening. Iran has faced criticism from Western nations for carrying out its own violent crackdown on anti-government protests in recent days.

Dabbashi and other Libyan diplomats at the United Nations called for Gadhafi to face prosecution at the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. They also urged the international community to deny entry to the Libyan leader and to be on the lookout for money laundering in case he tries to flee the country or send funds abroad.

The chief of the Libyan mission to the United Nations, Ambassador Mohamed Shalgham, declined to endorse his colleagues' demands.

youtube.com

Originally Posted by Mid

Libyan Air Force jets bombed airfields and other military targets as he left the city, initially to Sebha, the town where he grew up, to prevent the weapons falling into rebel hands.



Civilian areas were also said to have been hit.

There is no evidence that Gaddafi was using his airforce to attack civilian targets.

Its all very murky. Maybe there was in fact some civilian casualties as a matter of collateral damage? You can be sure that the western government media would spin it into an attack aimed at defenceless civilians giving moral justification for a political agenda in attacking Gaddafi.

Originally Posted by Panda

There is no evidence that Gaddafi was using his airforce to attack civilian targets.

Originally Posted by Mid

Ban said he has seen "very disturbing and shocking scenes" of Libyan security forces firing at protesters with warplanes and helicopters, actions he termed a "serious violation of international humanitarian law."

That's a tough one , Panda or Ban ?

BreakingNews Breaking News

Libya government planes bomb oil storage tanks in Misrata, sparking huge fire, rebel spokesman says - Reuters

Originally Posted by Panda

Its all very murky. Maybe there was in fact some civilian casualties as a matter of collateral damage? You can be sure that the western government media would spin it into an attack aimed at defenceless civilians giving moral justification for a political agenda in attacking Gaddafi.

that's exactly the problem, we can't trust our own government for spinning the news as they have hidden agenda

yet, gullible nutters will follow any government propaganda

Originally Posted by Panda

Thing is that USA sanctions state sponsored terrorism against the population in countries that are useful allies such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Thailand.

True- or at least looks the other way.

Originally Posted by Panda

You cant pick and choose in which countries its OK for the government to murder its own people lest you be seen as a total hypocrite.

"We are all hypocrites"- Chomsky. I like, as far as is possible, a moral foreign policy. Then again, just because we do support a 'righteous cause' in one country does not make that action, ipso facto, wrong because we do not in another.

To deny our manifest failures against your moral yardstick is indeed hypocritical, but so is to deny the importance of perceived self interest and alliances in the conduct of our foreign policy. Aka Realpolitik. You might certainly say we pick our fights selectively.

Bahrain is indeed a 'disappointment' imo- a crackdown, as opposed to political liberalisation to assuage the Shiite majority's justified grievances. Why then do 'we' remain mostly silent? The US Fifth Fleet is there, as is Centcom. And of course there is the old Shiite Iran 'bogeyman' card too (mostly bullshit imo). And Saudi over the Causeway. Then again this is a scene, not the whole play. It's an ongoing thing, not game over.

But does our inaction in Bahrain, or Thailand, necessarily make our stance of supporting a popular and widespread cause, or rebellion in Libya wrong, by definition? I don't think so.

Qadaffi's forces have been artillery bombarding the city of Misrata for over a week now, more so since his ground forces withdrew.

Originally Posted by Mid

"very disturbing and shocking scenes"

No doubt Utube images or has he released this evidence?

Originally Posted by Mid

Libya's deputy U.N. ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi requested the meeting after turning against Mr. Gadhafi and calling for him to be ousted.

An unbiased opinion no doubt then?

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

BreakingNews Breaking News

Libya government planes bomb oil storage tanks in Misrata, sparking huge fire, rebel spokesman says - Reuters

Seems to be "Twit" feed.

No story on Reuters site. Have you a link to the Reuters story?

Have you a name for the "rebel spokesman"?

Libya govt planes destroy Misrata fuel tanks
By REUTERS
05/07/2011 14:20

BEIRUT - Libyan government forces dropped bombs on four large oil storage tanks in the contested western city of Misrata, destroying the tanks and sparking a fire that spread to four more, a rebel spokesman said on Saturday.

Government forces used small planes normally used to spray pesticides for the overnight attack in Qasr Ahmed close to the port, said rebel spokesman Ahmed Hassan.

Rebels notified NATO about the planes before the attack but there was no response, he said.

jpost.com

MISRATA, Libya — Military forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi scattered antitank land mines on the port of this besieged city late Thursday night, threatening once more to close the city’s only route for evacuation and supplies, according to accounts of witnesses, photographs and physical evidence collected on the ground.

Gadhafi forces scatter land mines | | The Bulletin

Originally Posted by sabang

Qadaffi's forces have been artillery bombarding the city of Misrata for over a week now, more so since his ground forces withdrew.

Trying to take out the "terrorist command and control centres", a la NATO in Tripoli.

Amnesty International says attacks by forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi in Misrata could amount to war crimes.

Images shot specially for euronews show rebels in the besieged Libyan city on May 5. A group of men tour shattered buildings amid a desolate scene of burning vehicles.

Misrata, the only major city in the west of the country which hasn’t fallen to Gaddafi’s army, has become one of the bloodiest battlefields in the two-month conflict.

Amnesty accuses government forces of “relentless indiscriminate attacks” on civilian areas, involving the use of snipers, cluster bombs and artillery.

“It shows a total disregard for the lives of ordinary people and is in clear breach of international humanitarian law,” says its report.

http://www.euronews.net/2011/05/07/m...ble-war-crime/

Vid at link

Originally Posted by Mid

Amnesty accuses government forces of “relentless indiscriminate attacks” on civilian areas

Whereas the terrorist army abide by the "Queensberry rules" no doubt; and dont deploy "heavy weapons" in "civilian areas".

NATO do not target "civilian populated areas" except of course with bombs and missiles except when they want to murder "leaders" in Tripoli - a civilian populated area" with 1,000,000 plus "civilians" living there and target "command and control centres"

Mid is not really on strong on logic and ethics, don't pay attention

Originally Posted by Mid

“It shows a total disregard for the lives of ordinary people and is in clear breach of international humanitarian law,”

The "Libyan Contact Group" arms, acts as an air force for, trains and advises the terrorist army to undertake similar action in the "civilian populated areas" will the leaders of the countries signed up to this organisation similarly be condemned by Amnesty?

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Mid is not really on strong on logic and ethics, don't pay attention

Here Butters, I thought you could use this:

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Mid is not really on strong on logic and ethics, don't pay attention

Mid brings in published stories which is useful. He doesn't comment or express an opinion mainly.

Sebang, on the other-hand, I think is a lost cause but hay ho, Ce la vie.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Sebang, on the other-hand, I think is a lost cause but hay ho, Ce la vie.

Sab is a conservative, so him being twisted logically and politically is perfectly normal

he is a very nice guy otherwise

Originally Posted by OhOh

Mid brings in published stories which is useful. He doesn't comment or express an opinion mainly.

actually he does, when he quotes partially such stories, it's to express his support for the arguments he is quoting. Apparently he is mute, so he can only communicate through news clip