Thread: The Libyan Crisis

Libya is all about logistics now | Abdel Bari Atwan | Comment is free | The Guardian

"Gaddafi has long used Libya's oil to manipulate the international community, playing small companies off against the multinational giants, and US organisations against European ones. When sanctions were lifted against Libya in 2003 – largely thanks to Tony Blair's efforts to bring Gaddafi in from the cold – production was ramped up to match Iran's 3m barrels a day, and 15 new exploration licences were auctioned, 11 of which went to US companies. The licences were expensive, the Libyan regime's administrative demands were frustrating, and discoveries were disappointing. Then, at the end of last year, the state-owned Libyan National Oil Company flexed its muscles and announced it was not expecting to issue any new oil concession licences in 2011.
Last month, Gaddafi played the oil card in the current crisis, urging Russia, China and India (who all oppose the Nato intervention) to invest in Libya's oil sector. For those who have intervened in Libya, both time and options are running out."

It aint like the Libyan oil contracts are cemented in stone under international law anymore since the US,UK and France have been attacking the place.
Why do you think China and Russia have been sitting back and opposing the whole western assault deal? If Gaddafi comes out on top, as it appears he will, does it not make sense that the sweetest oil deals will go to China and Russia? And does it not make sense that those countries will have an interest in protecting their interests abroad?

A desperate escape by sea for Misrata's terrified refugees - Africa, World - The Independent

A good report of the humanitarian evacuation.

No report on who organised the evacuation on the ground in the port.

No report of the 5 * hotels the workers normally lived in just the "camp".

No numbers on the actual Libyans who left, just the migrant workers from other countries.

No details of the "aid", 400tons, delivered and to who it was delivered. How long does it take to unload 400tons in that port and allegedly under fire.

No details of the numbers or make-up of the "aid" workers left behind to assist the "unarmed civilians".

No live video of the operation by our fearless reporter "Kim Sengupta in Misrata"

Cracking investigative live reporting.

Nato mission in disarray as criticisms mount - Africa, World - The Independent

"The French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet's suggestion that a new resolution would be necessary to achieve Nato's goals threatened further to anger opponents of the conflict. Arguing that ousting Colonel Gaddafi would "certainly" be beyond the scope of the current resolution, Mr Longuet said that the position outlined in a joint editorial by Nicolas Sarkozy, David Cameron and Mr Obama, insisting that they would fight until Colonel Gaddafi was forced out, required a new agreement.

"I think that three major countries saying the same thing is important to the UN," he said. "Perhaps one day the Security Council will adopt a resolution." But British officials reacted coolly to the French proposal. They insisted that the purpose of the operation had not shifted to one of "regime change".

In Britain, Downing Street rebuffed a call by five MPs for Parliament's three-week Easter recess to be interrupted for a debate on the stalemate on Libya."

All this of course against the background of the BRICS disgust with the NATO and "contact group" massacre of ongoing Libyans.

Let us see if the new resolution is tabled and passed.

Originally Posted by koman

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Panda

Gadaffie through his control of Libyas oil is a threat to wesrern interests in the way he is playing off Russia and China against the west.

85% of Libyan oil goes to Europe, or had done until recently.

Well if the conspiracy theorists are right, Ireland, Italy and Austria should be leading the charge.....

A well used argument, but not one that holds a heck of a lot of credibility.
Libya is part of the OPEC alliance and world prices are set by OPEC. Europe buys Libyan oil simply because its cheaper to ship in the same way USA buys Venezuelan oil because its cheaper to ship.To make matters a little more complicated, countries generally hedge their bets by buying oil from various sources around the world in case a regional conflict cuts off supply.

Originally Posted by OhOh

"I think that three major countries saying the same thing is important to the UN," he said. "Perhaps one day the Security Council will adopt a resolution." But British officials reacted coolly to the French proposal. They insisted that the purpose of the operation had not shifted to one of "regime change".

What the hell are these people arguing about?. It was never any of the western countries that demanded "regime change". It was Libyans who demanded it...and are still demanding it. That is why civil war broke out in Libya in the first place. As a result of the civil conflict here was the potential for mass slaughter by Libyan forces loyal to Gadaffi. The Colonel himself instructed his forces to show no mercy.

France, UK and US managed to get a UN resolution...to stop this slaughter, (usually a complete waste of time because nobody really gives a shit about the UN when the going gets tough) to intervene.....that is what they did; primarily for the reasons stated.

Regime change is; or should be, a spin- off product of the intervention. (Ie. If he intervention helps Libyans to get rid of Gadaffi and establish a new government; that will obviously be part of the overall expectation)

Anything that comes out of countries like Russia and China is just hot air and needs to be treated for what it is.....Russia is a totally corrupt "Mafia state" and China is interested only in China, and not even worth talking about.....get a grip FFS....

Misrata is Libya's third biggest city, and considered the commercial and industrial capital. It also has the highest income- so I guess I can see why Q wants to wrest it from the 'rebels'.

Heres a brief history of Qadaffi's reign-

On 1 September 1969, a small group of military officers led by the 27 year old army officer Muammar Gaddafi staged a coup d'état against King Idris, launching the Libyan Revolution. Gaddafi has since then been referred to as the "Brother Leader and Guide of the Revolution" in government statements and the official Libyan press.

On the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad in 1973, Gaddafi delivered a "Five-Point Address". He announced the suspension of all existing laws and the implementation of Sharia. He said that the country would be purged of the "politically sick". A "people's militia" would "protect the revolution". There would be an administrative revolution, and a cultural revolution.

Gaddafi set up an extensive surveillance system. 10 to 20 percent of Libyans work in surveillance for the Revolutionary committees. The surveillance takes place in government, in factories, and in the education sector. Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels. Gaddafi employed his network of diplomats and recruits to assassinate dozens of critical refugees around the world. Amnesty International listed at least 25 assassinations between 1980 and 1987.

In 1977, Libya officially became the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. Later that same year, Gaddafi ordered an artillery strike on Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's intent to sign a peace treaty with Israel. Sadat's forces triumphed easily in a four-day border war that came to be known as the Libyan-Egyptian War, leaving over 400 Libyans dead and Gaddafi's armored divisions in disarray.

In February 1977, Libya started military supplies to Goukouni Oueddei and the People's Armed Forces in Chad. The Chadian–Libyan conflict began in earnest when Libya's support of rebel forces in northern Chad escalated into an invasion.

Hundreds of Libyans lost their lives in the war against Tanzania, when Gaddafi tried to save his friend Idi Amin. Gaddafi financed various other groups from anti-nuclear movements to Australian trade unions.

The eastern parts of the country become impoverished under Gaddafi's economic theories.

Much of the country’s income from oil, which soared in the 1970s, was spent on arms purchases and on sponsoring dozens of paramilitaries and terrorist groups around the world. An airstrike failed to kill Gaddafi in 1986. Libya was finally put under United Nations sanctions after the bombing of a commercial flight killed hundreds of travelers.

...Human rights

According to the US Department of State’s annual human rights report for 2007, Libya’s authoritarian regime continued to have a poor record in the area of human rights. Some of the numerous and serious abuses on the part of the government include poor prison conditions, arbitrary arrest and prisoners held incommunicado, and political prisoners held for many years without charge or trial. The judiciary is controlled by the government, and there is no right to a fair public trial. Libyans do not have the right to change their government. Freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, and religion are restricted. Independent human rights organizations are prohibited. Ethnic and tribal minorities suffer discrimination, and the state continues to restrict the labor rights of foreign jobs.

In 2005 Freedom House rated both political rights and civil liberties in Libya as "7" (1 representing the most free and 7 the least free rating), and gave it the freedom rating of "Not Free".

Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's a bit of a miracle of survival he's been in power since 1969. Truly a nutter, and a despot. I don't think be will be for much longer- but if Nato dithers over relieving Misrata, it will make the job that much harder, and more bloody.

[quote=koman;1732676]
France, UK and US managed to get a UN resolution...to stop this slaughter, (usually a complete waste of time because nobody really gives a shit about the UN when the going gets tough) to intervene.....that is what they did; primarily for the reasons stated.

Regime change is; or should be, a spin- off product of the intervention. (Ie. If he intervention helps Libyans to get rid of Gadaffi and establish a new government; that will obviously be part of the overall expectation)

quote]

Pretty much sums it up there Koman. Except no country , USA , UK , or France has the balls to get in there and declare war on Gaddafi. Instead they are trying to hide behind UN resolution 1973 and trying to sell thier interpretation in order to justify their covert actions. Nobody respects sneaky lying cowardly justifications (USA excepted of course), so its likely no country will have the will to exceed the UN mandate, and no country will have the balls to just go in there and get it over with.

So what we got is a pretend war with our side playing the role of the impartial peacekeeper while the other side is playing for keeps.

Time we stopped fucking about. If this is really about regime change then lets get in there and do it instead of senselessly wasting all these rebels lives under some pretence its about protecting civilians. Stop the crap and get on with it or get out.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) said its researchers reported the use of internationally banned cluster munitions

Perhaps US based HRW should point out several countries have not signed the the treaty. Libya among them. Brazil, China, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia and the United States are the rest.

Originally Posted by Panda

Gaddafi was making overtures to the Russians and Chinese re oil contracts. Could explain the wests eagerness to replace Gaddafi with a more compliant government?

That's what I think too.

Originally Posted by Norton

are the rest.

amongst the rest , Thailand and Cambodia are also in that mix

Originally Posted by sabang

Misrata is Libya's third biggest city, and considered the commercial and industrial capital. It also has the highest income- so I guess I can see why Q wants to wrest it from the 'rebels'.

Heres a brief history of Qadaffi's reign-

On 1 September 1969, a small group of military officers led by the 27 year old army officer Muammar Gaddafi staged a coup d'état against King Idris, launching the Libyan Revolution. Gaddafi has since then been referred to as the "Brother Leader and Guide of the Revolution" in government statements and the official Libyan press.

On the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad in 1973, Gaddafi delivered a "Five-Point Address". He announced the suspension of all existing laws and the implementation of Sharia. He said that the country would be purged of the "politically sick". A "people's militia" would "protect the revolution". There would be an administrative revolution, and a cultural revolution.

Gaddafi set up an extensive surveillance system. 10 to 20 percent of Libyans work in surveillance for the Revolutionary committees. The surveillance takes place in government, in factories, and in the education sector. Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels. Gaddafi employed his network of diplomats and recruits to assassinate dozens of critical refugees around the world. Amnesty International listed at least 25 assassinations between 1980 and 1987.

In 1977, Libya officially became the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. Later that same year, Gaddafi ordered an artillery strike on Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's intent to sign a peace treaty with Israel. Sadat's forces triumphed easily in a four-day border war that came to be known as the Libyan-Egyptian War, leaving over 400 Libyans dead and Gaddafi's armored divisions in disarray.

In February 1977, Libya started military supplies to Goukouni Oueddei and the People's Armed Forces in Chad. The Chadian–Libyan conflict began in earnest when Libya's support of rebel forces in northern Chad escalated into an invasion.

Hundreds of Libyans lost their lives in the war against Tanzania, when Gaddafi tried to save his friend Idi Amin. Gaddafi financed various other groups from anti-nuclear movements to Australian trade unions.

The eastern parts of the country become impoverished under Gaddafi's economic theories.

Much of the country’s income from oil, which soared in the 1970s, was spent on arms purchases and on sponsoring dozens of paramilitaries and terrorist groups around the world. An airstrike failed to kill Gaddafi in 1986. Libya was finally put under United Nations sanctions after the bombing of a commercial flight killed hundreds of travelers.

...Human rights

According to the US Department of State’s annual human rights report for 2007, Libya’s authoritarian regime continued to have a poor record in the area of human rights. Some of the numerous and serious abuses on the part of the government include poor prison conditions, arbitrary arrest and prisoners held incommunicado, and political prisoners held for many years without charge or trial. The judiciary is controlled by the government, and there is no right to a fair public trial. Libyans do not have the right to change their government. Freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, and religion are restricted. Independent human rights organizations are prohibited. Ethnic and tribal minorities suffer discrimination, and the state continues to restrict the labor rights of foreign jobs.

In 2005 Freedom House rated both political rights and civil liberties in Libya as "7" (1 representing the most free and 7 the least free rating), and gave it the freedom rating of "Not Free".

Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's a bit of a miracle of survival he's been in power since 1969. Truly a nutter, and a despot. I don't think be will be for much longer- but if Nato dithers over relieving Misrata, it will make the job that much harder, and more bloody.

Sounds like a truly evil man.
Makes you wonder why the west suddenly befriended him 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by Panda

Sounds like a truly evil man. Makes you wonder why the west suddenly befriended him 5 years ago.

Perhaps because "use value" is different from "moral value"?

Or would you suggest that 30,000 Chinese were working in Libya in order to soak up some real good evil?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...541217692.html

Battles for Libyan cities rage on

Renewed push for oil port of Brega comes as Gaddafi regime denies using cluster bombs on the besieged city of Misurata.

Last Modified: 17 Apr 2011 07:25

Libyan rebels, seeking to overthrow long time leader Muammar Gaddafi, have advanced from Ajdabiya toward the oil port town of Brega in the country’s east.

Following NATO air strikes along the coastal road on Saturday, anti-Gaddafi forces said they had reached the edges of the oil town, bringing engineers with them to repair the damaged oil infrastructure.

But Gaddafi's troops remain consolidated within the city centre, said rebel fighters returning to Ajdabiya.

"We have people on the edge of Brega, we control that area only," said 20-year-old Mohammed el-Misrati.

"Nothing has changed inside Brega."

The battle for territory in Libya's east left six anti-Gaddafi fighters dead and 16 wounded on Saturday.

"We were in our vehicles and they opened fire with rockets," said an injured fighter named Abdulrazek in Ajdabiya hospital.

Fresh air strikes

Meanwhile, anti-aircraft fire was heard in the skies above the capital Tripoli on Saturday, and Libyan state TV said NATO air strikes targeted Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte.

Meanwhile, the city of Misurata, Libya's third largest city, continued to come under bombardment, with food industry facilities reportedly damaged.

"They are trying to starve us to death, attacking the dairy, the water purification plant," Jiraal, a Libyan who returned from Britain to join anti-Gaddafi fighters, told the AFP news agency.

Some 99 Misurata residents were transported out of the besieged city overnight by the aid agency Medicins Sans Frontieres (MSF), arriving in the southern Tunisian port of Zarzis.

The group comprised of people injured in the continued shelling and street fighting. It also includes 64 people with serious injuries, and ten patients in critical condition.

Cluster bombs denied

Libyan officials categorically denied claims that forces loyal to Gaddafi have used cluster bombs, banned globally, in the battle for Misurata.

Tripoli authorities refuted reports from New York-based watchdog Human Rights Watch, which said its researchers had found remains of cluster munitions in the city - described as the last stronghold of anti-Gaddafi fighters in western Libya.

"Absolutely no. We can't do this. Morally, legally, we can't do this," Gaddafi spokesman Mussa Ibrahim told reporters.

"We never do it. We challenge them to prove it."

THE ADVANCE ON BREGA

Al Jazeera's Sue Turton reports from Ajdabiya

Cluster bombs explode in the air, scattering small "bomblets" across a wide area. Many fail to detonate initially, leaving a potentially devastating minefield-like area on the ground.

"Last night it was like rain," said Misurata resident Hazam Abu Zaid, referring to cluster bombs.

Steve Goose, HRW's arms division director, said: "It's appalling that Libya is using this weapon, especially in a residential area.

"They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks because of their indiscriminate nature - and afterwards because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about."

Libya has never signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions, and is therefore not bound by the international treaty.

But Adrian Traylor, an independent conflict resolution consultant, tells Al Jazeera that the material gathered by researchers in Misurata "could be used as future evidence of a crime against humanity or war crime for, at very least, an attack directed at a civilian population - regardless of the cluster weapons convention."

A Red Cross team arrived in Misurata on Saturday to assess the situation there, nearly a week after Libyan officials reportedly said that opening an aid corridor to the city would constitute "an act of war".

Now all of them complaining about the use of cluster bombs, why you not get on Thailand's case using them against the poor Cambodians they have evidence also sorry cannot the mericanos supplied them

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/18/wo...obal&seid=auto

Rebels Flee Key Libyan Town

By ROD NORDLAND

Published: April 17, 2011

AJDABIYA, Libya — Rebel fighters fled this city Sunday after a rocket and artillery attack by government forces that were reportedly on the western outskirts.

Scores of rebel pickup trucks and other vehicles could be seen leaving the eastern approaches of Ajdabiya, headed toward the rebel capital of Benghazi, about 85 miles north. Explosions could be heard in the city.

Their flight seemed to bring to an end a claimed rebel push that had taken them to the outskirts of the oil refinery town of Brega, about another 40 miles further west of Ajdabiya.

Many of the fighters in the vehicles blamed Nato for failing to give them enough support, and also said they had insufficient heavy weapons to match the weaponry of forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

“Where are the NATO forces?” asked Absalam Hamid, who identified himself as a rebel captain. “We don’t know why they didn’t bomb them.” Strong winds and a sandstorm lowered visibility Sunday and may have made it difficult for air support to engage targets, although Captain Hamid said NATO planes had not been active the day before either, when government forces began advancing.

He turned around his pickup truck, which like many had a mounted heavy machine gun on the back, and headed toward Benghazi, followed by a dozen other vehicles. Some had rocket pods from helicopter gunships and jet fighters mounted on the rear of their pickup beds; others sported long rocket tubes, but no rockets to use in them.

“Where is America, where is France, we need Sarkozy,” one of the men shouted. “We have no army.” Many of the fighters were clearly jittery and frightened.

On Saturday, the chief of staff of the Free Libya Forces, as the rebels style themselves, General Abdel Fattah Younes, told Al Arabiya television that their fighters were already in Brega and expected to conclude their capture of the city by Sunday.

“We are in a not-too-bad state of preparedness and our army fighters, youths and rebels are now doing a good job — and in the morning there will be good news,” Al Arabiya quoted General Younes as saying about Brega on Saturday.

A spokesman for the rebels’ National Transitional Council also expressed optimism that Brega’s fall was imminent.

Fighting has see-sawed around Ajdabiya for a month now with neither side firmly in control of the highway that runs through it, connecting the rebel held east with the rest of Libya.

Ive said it before, I think the 'rebels' are killing as many 'civilians' as the Gadhafi soldiers. Every time I see pictures of the 'rebels' they are indiscriminately firing rockets or mortars into a city, I don't think they are all landing on the heads of Gadhafi soldiers. The government and the 'rebels' are both using the same supply of weapons for the most part, most of the rebels weapons were captured from the government.

I see France and NATO are doing such a great job. While watching the news this evening there sure are a lot of children getting caught in the cross fire.

Amazing! Somehow America will get blamed as usual.

As NATO has taken the lead for the countries who support the opposition (or at least want to stop the murder of citizens), NATO must now find a way to settle this fighting.

I suspect that ending this all without sacrificing the protestors will require intervention by NATO ground forces.

Originally Posted by DrAndy

if you think that the CIA or MI5 etc are going to give you a link, think again it is highly likely that the attempted coup d'etat was encouraged by those agents; it is a very common modus operandi

The old cliche that it's the CIA?
.
Priceless.

For everything else, there's America.

Details also emerged yesterday of gang rape being used by Gaddafi’s soldiers, many of them African mercenaries supplied with Viagra by the Libyan leader’s officials.
Most victims have been too afraid of the stigma facing them and their families to talk. But a woman called Leila, 28, said she was going public because ‘unbelievable crimes’ were being committed.

Read more: 'No question' of allied ground invasion of Libya, says David Cameron | Mail Online