The Libyan Crisis

**Butterfly** · 09-04-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

My stance remains the same on the Nato airstrikes, on humanitarian grounds.

eggs, sab, eggs, it's ok to have them scrambled on your face

**Panda** · 09-04-2011, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

My stance remains the same on the Nato airstrikes, on humanitarian grounds.

And who could disagree? Certainly not me or anyone else I know.

Its the other less than humanitarian grounds the concern me.

You, of all people Sabang, should know that these things are not as simple as reasons our politicians try to sell to the public.

**Tom Sawyer** · 09-04-2011, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs

Gadhafi financed Sarkozy run for president, then the Jew dwarf stabs him in the back like the sniveling little shit he is.

It gets better (or worse - depending on your view) - Strauss-Kahn - the taller Jew will likely challenge Sarkozy for the Presidency. So the french choice will be a french-jew or a french-jew. It's a bit like Americans being offered Obama vs Rice. If you wre hoping for a white catholic..

**StrontiumDog** · 09-04-2011, 09:22 PM

Fighting erupts anew on Libya's eastern front | Reuters

Fighting erupts anew on Libya's eastern front

Related Video

Rebel funerals, NATO regrets in Libya

Fri, Apr 8 2011

By Michael Georgy
AJDABIYAH, Libya | Sat Apr 9, 2011 10:00am EDT

(Reuters) - Fighting erupted on the eastern front in Libya's civil war on Saturday as a Red Cross ship brought medical supplies to the besieged western city of Misrata, scene of bitter street battles.

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi shelled the western outskirts of Ajdabiyah, the launch point for rebel attacks toward the Mediterranean oil port of Brega.

A Reuters correspondent heard artillery impacts and machinegun fire for around 30 minutes, coming from the western boundary of the town, the gateway to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi 150 km (90 miles) to the northeast.

Al Jazeera television said Gaddafi forces had entered Ajdabiyah.

Inconclusive see-saw battles have raged along the desert road between the two towns for over a week. Western generals are increasingly pessimistic that the military stalemate can be broken despite NATO air attacks on Gaddafi's armoured forces.

A Red Cross ship managed to dock in Misrata on Saturday carrying enough medical supplies to treat 300 patients with gunshot wounds. Conditions in the town are said to be desperate.

Misrata, the lone major rebel outpost in the west of Libya, has been under siege by Gaddafi's forces for weeks. Insurgents said on Friday they had repelled an assault on the eastern flank of Misrata after fierce street battles that killed five people.

Misrata, Libya's third largest city, rose up with other towns against Gaddafi in mid-February after a violent security crackdown snuffed out most peaceful protests in the west.

Rebels say people in Misrata are crammed five families to a house in the few safe districts, to escape weeks of sniper, mortar and rocket fire. There are severe shortages of food, water and medical supplies and hospitals are overflowing.

ARTILLERY ATTACK

The rebels said they intended to take Brega on Saturday and some had penetrated the outskirts.

"God willing, we will take Brega today. We already have people up there and we will try to do it today," said rebel Captain Hakim Muazzib from a petrol station on the desert road between the two towns. There were 10 pick-up trucks waiting in the petrol station, carrying rocket launchers and machineguns.

Abdullah Mutalib, 27, a rebel lying in a hospital bed in Ajdabiyah with a bullet wound in his side, told Reuters: "Some of us got inside Brega to the university, some got to the outskirts. Then we came under rocket fire."

NATO air strikes hit weapons depots belonging to Gaddafi forces near Zintan, south of the capital Tripoli in far western Libya, on Friday, a resident said.

"The depots are situated 15 km (nine miles) southeast of Zintan. We could see buildings on fire in the distance," the resident, called Abdulrahman, said by phone.

An oil tanker carrying 80,000 tonnes of crude that the rebels need to finance their uprising entered the Suez Canal on Saturday after leaving rebel-held east Libya. Traders say it is headed for China with the first cargo the rebels have sold.

PESSIMISM

Western officials have acknowledged that their air power will not be enough to help the rag-tag rebels overthrow Gaddafi by force and they are now emphasizing a political solution.

NATO air strikes, with the stated aim of protecting civilians against Gaddafi's army under a U.N. mandate, have created rather than broken a stalemate with neither side now strong enough to land a knockout blow.

Alliance officials have expressed frustration that Gaddafi's tactics of sheltering his armor in civilian areas has diluted the impact of supremacy in the skies over Libya.

Analysts predict a long, low-level conflict possibly leading to partition between east and west in the sprawling country.

"The opposition forces are insufficient to break this deadlock and so as things stand, the march on Tripoli is not going to happen," said John Marks, chairman of Britain's Cross Border Information consultancy.

"This standoff looks like it could go on pretty much forever ... for now we have a stalemate so we are looking rather more at a de facto partition."

**StrontiumDog** · 09-04-2011, 10:02 PM

BBC News - Libya: RAF Tornados destroy seven Libyan tanks

9 April 2011 Last updated at 14:17 GMT

Libya: RAF Tornados destroy seven Libyan tanks

RAF Typhoon jets have been enforcing the UN-backed no-fly zone over Libya

RAF Tornados have destroyed seven tanks in Libya as air strikes there continue, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.

The jets hit two tanks in Ajdabiyah and five in Misratah on Friday - areas which have seen fighting between rebels and Col Muammar Gaddafi's troops.

RAF Typhoons have also been involved in policing the UN-backed no-fly zone.

The MoD also said HMS Cumberland would return to the UK after HMS Liverpool took over its surveillance and embargo operations alongside HMS Brockelsby.

A spokesman said the Tornado GR4 planes used Brimstone missiles and Paveway IV bombs.

He said: "The weapons were discharged as part of armed air reconnaissance and overwatch patrols conducted over Misratah, Brega and Ajdabiyah.

Diplomatic mission "RAF Typhoon aircraft conducted defensive counter air patrols as part of the no-fly zone enforcement."

Prime Minister David Cameron announced earlier this week that an additional four RAF Tornados would be sent to Italy, joining 18 RAF jets already deployed.

A total of 34 nations are now involved in operations in Libya.

The latest strikes come after Nato said it would not apologise for a bomb attack on a rebel convoy of tanks in Brega on Thursday, in which at least four people died.

The deputy commander of Nato's Libya operations, Rear Admiral Russ Harding, said they were not aware opposition troops had started using tanks.

But rebel commander General Abdelfatah Yunis said Nato had been informed of the movement of the tanks, and had even been given their co-ordinates.

Meanwhile, a team of African leaders, headed by South African President Jacob Zuma, is heading for Libya this weekend on a key diplomatic mission.

The five heads will visit both Tripoli and the rebel-held city of Benghazi to push for a truce between the forces of Col Gaddafi and the opposition.

Mr Zuma's team includes leaders from DR Congo, Mali, Mauritania and Uganda.

Their first stop will be in Mauritiania on Saturday before going on to Tripoli on Sunday.

State-run Libyan television has broadcast pictures of Col Gaddafi at a school in Tripoli - his first TV appearance in days.

Pupils shouted anti-Western slogans during the visit, which the TV said occurred on Saturday morning.

**OhOh** · 10-04-2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

My stance remains the same on the Nato airstrikes, on humanitarian grounds. Qadaffi's blood curdling rhetoric removed any issue of justification in my mind. They worked too- no massacre in Benghazi region.

Unfortunately the alleged, potential, massacre did not take place and the evidence to support it would have taken place is very thin on the ground. Mrs Clinton has even stated that her "evidence" had been gleaned from "media" reports.

If you are relying on "Qadaffi's blood curdling rhetoric" as evidence of actions you should also take note of the US and UK considered opinion which they have stated; "lets see the action not hear the words"

Are you a supporter of pre-emptive strikes?

**OhOh** · 10-04-2011, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The deputy commander of Nato's Libya operations, Rear Admiral Russ Harding, said they were not aware opposition troops had started using tanks.

But rebel commander General Abdelfatah Yunis said Nato had been informed of the movement of the tanks, and had even been given their co-ordinates.

General Yunis is obviously not paying off the right people. His air force is not obeying his orders. Alternatively he is using the same mapmakers as the Thias/Cambodians - the US

**Butterfly** · 10-04-2011, 08:21 AM

they have no fucking clue, that's the problem, they can't run a war

they are only prepared for big catastrophic wars, not small conflicts like those, that's why they keep firing at the wrong people, including civilians

NATO has already lost Libya, another meaningless conflict with no exit

**Butterfly** · 10-04-2011, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Panda

You, of all people Sabang, should know that these things are not as simple as reasons our politicians try to sell to the public.

indeed, we all know that the "massacre" was a story being sold to the public,

sab, not surprisingly, like many is easily influence by certain rethorics whithout fully understanding the underlying principles behind them.

**koman** · 10-04-2011, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

indeed, we all know that the "massacre" was a story being sold to the public,

WE do?? and how exactly do WE know that?....something did not happen because something else happened to prevent it.........so whatever was likely going to happen was just made up.?.....but if the original something had happened because the thing that stopped it from happening did not happen............then what would you have to say about the thing that did not happen...??

**Carrabow** · 10-04-2011, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by koman

Originally Posted by Butterfly

indeed, we all know that the "massacre" was a story being sold to the public,

WE do?? and how exactly do WE know that?....something did not happen because something else happened to prevent it.........so whatever was likely going to happen was just made up.?.....but if the original something had happened because the thing that stopped it from happening did not happen............then what would you have to say about the thing that did not happen...??

Happenstance maybe?

**Carrabow** · 10-04-2011, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

they have no fucking clue, that's the problem, they can't run a war

they are only prepared for big catastrophic wars, not small conflicts like those, that's why they keep firing at the wrong people, including civilians

NATO has already lost Libya, another meaningless conflict with no exit

This is not a chess game and who said conflicts were pretty. Rebels are rag tag individuals with no discipline and NO command and control. You have small groups and bands of men from all different areas who do not know each other running around playing Rambo. You dont think these guys are running into and lighting each other up? Look how some of these guys are dressed and armed.

Now for the poor pilot with Bionic Eyes, maybe some bad intel from some undisciplined rebel?

C'mon man...they are playing for keeps. Sh*t happens in this type of scenario.

**mao say dung** · 10-04-2011, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Carrabow

C'mon man...they are playing for keeps. Sh*t happens in this type of scenario. Carrabow is online now Add to Carrabow's Reputation Report Post Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

Yeah, but making puerile witticisms gets a lot harder when you have to take complexity into account.

I think ol' Preacher Pilger put his finger in the right place when he mentioned the Chinese workers being evacuated.

Anyone know what percentage of Libyan oil would be under "rebel" control if the country winds up split into two, de facto or otherwise?

**koman** · 10-04-2011, 11:12 AM

Well good news at last. A bunch of African leaders are coming to sort things out.
I can't imagine a better group of people to solve disputes and make peace than a bunch of African leaders....with Moamar in the chair giving direction....and the Libyan army outside. Unfortunately Mr. Gbagbo and Mr Quattara will not attend....they seem to be having a little peace conference of their own...

**Carrabow** · 10-04-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Carrabow

C'mon man...they are playing for keeps. Sh*t happens in this type of scenario. Carrabow is online now Add to Carrabow's Reputation Report Post Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

Yeah, but making puerile witticisms gets a lot harder when you have to take complexity into account.

I think ol' Preacher Pilger put his finger in the right place when he mentioned the Chinese workers being evacuated.

Anyone know what percentage of Libyan oil would be under "rebel" control if the country winds up split into two, de facto or otherwise?

Ther is nothing childish or witty about my statement, if these guys were regulars with the right gear (kit), some coordination between groups (radios,intel C&C). They would be a whole lot more effective. I actually feel sorry for the NATO guys trying to give assistance. Yeah, lets figure out who is who.

That was my point

**Carrabow** · 10-04-2011, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by koman

Well good news at last. A bunch of African leaders are coming to sort things out.
I can't imagine a better group of people to solve disputes and make peace than a bunch of African leaders....with Moamar in the chair giving direction....and the Libyan army outside. Unfortunately Mr. Gbagbo and Mr Quattara will not attend....they seem to be having a little peace conference of their own...

Should get really interesting.

**mao say dung** · 10-04-2011, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Carrabow

That was my point

And my point was that Bfly's puerile witticisms depend on oversimplification, as you pointed out.

**Carrabow** · 10-04-2011, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Carrabow

That was my point

And my point was that Bfly's puerile witticisms depend on oversimplification, as you pointed out.

Woops, my head is floating with a cold. Lame excuse on my part.

You always here people retort about innocent people getting killed in conflict or war. Now, in the civilized world we belong in I have never met a soldier who intentionally wanted to harm innocent people. Does it happen? Sure.

I can only imagine what is going on over there, we all know the atrocities Africa is capable of producing.

Blood diamonds anyone?

**sabang** · 10-04-2011, 03:20 PM

'Ever so' Dear Colonel Qadaffi,

We didn't start this rebellion- it was a widespread, popular, homegrown rebellion against a despot. With no assistance from ourselves, most of Libya became 'rebel held' within a matter of days. Took us a bit by surprise really- we didn't realise you were so unpopular in your own country. Far be it from us to look a gift horse in the mouth.

We didn't start the air war either- you did, Colonel. We warned you not to. But you kept on blasting your own people, who had no air defence, with planes and bombs. You armed your loyalists- not just military, civilians also- openly telling them to murder 'rebels' in the streets. You openly threatened a massacre in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, Libya's second biggest city. Knowing your track record (ohh, We remember

) we had little reason to doubt you. Nato went into action, and the 'Qadaffi' advance was promptly halted. More defections followed.

Now, with your remaining State apparatus, Qadaffi you are pretty firmly entrenched in the capitol, Tripoli, and surrounds- but not much else. Many of your close advisers and senior military have defected. Two of your sons scuttled over to Rome to try some diplomacy, & now the Africans are in on the act. It seems highly unlikely you will remain in power. What a surprise- now that it is clear that these 'rebels' are not going away, and that you cannot massacre your own people with impunity, why even the mad Colonel himself has been making some noises about diplomatic solutions. Such humanitarianism.

Let me be clear about this, there is a certain amount of Hope, and perhaps even a bit of gloating in what I say. Allow me to say a few things our politicians would be ill advised to say at this point. Very un-PC, you know.

I never thought I would be thanking you, Colonel. Indeed, I am not. I Praise Allah instead. Truly Manna from Heaven.

We have long memories, you see. Lets talk about Lockerbie shall we? Oh, and did I forget to mention the IRA? Sure- we did business with you. We had to, we need the oil. But that did stick in the craw, more than a little. You have few friends here, Colonel. Very few.

The small question of oil. H'mm. Libya has lots of it, too. Good oil, cheap to extract. We really prefer that to be in the hands of our friends you know. Or at least people we can rely on. Not insane despots and callous murderers like yourself. I have to slightly shamefacedly admit that, as a Bloc, the West has on more than one occasion let itself down on it's 'lofty moral principles' in search of this particular commodity. But not this time, oh noo. We are here on humanitarian grounds you see.

I suppose the oil is a bonus though. Manna from heaven, really.

Ain't karma a biatch?

Yours with absolutely no Love,

sabang

**Panda** · 10-04-2011, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

The small question of oil. H'mm. Libya has lots of it, too. Good oil, cheap to extract. We really prefer that to be in the hands of our friends you know. Or at least people we can rely on. Not insane despots and callous murderers like yourself. I have to slightly shamefacedly admit that, as a Bloc, the West has on more than one occasion let itself down on it's 'lofty moral principles' in search of this particular commodity. But not this time, oh noo. We are here on humanitarian grounds you see.

I suppose the oil is a bonus though. Manna from heaven, really.

So what are we doing about Saudi Arabia and Bahrain if its all about human rights and the oil is only a bonus?

Umm... we both know the answer dont we? --- Nothing.

BBC News - Leading Bahrain activist Abdulhadi al-Khawaja arrested

**Butterfly** · 10-04-2011, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Carrabow

That was my point

And my point was that Bfly's puerile witticisms depend on oversimplification, as you pointed out.

it's hardly oversimplification, the facts speak for themselves

NATO can't deploy a full conflict, that's the problem, and because of it they will keep bombing innocent civilians and rebels without distinction, and with no exit or end result in sight

a complete futile exercise,

**Butterfly** · 10-04-2011, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

So what are we doing about Saudi Arabia and Bahrain if its all about human rights and the oil is only a bonus?

that's the whole shame about these ME uprising, the US and their allies are making judgment calls on who to support or not, nothing to do with Democracy or the choice of the people

it would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic,

**sabang** · 10-04-2011, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

Umm... we both know the answer dont we? --- Nothing.

Correct. Just as we did 'nothing' about Qadaffi. Until his people rose up en masse' against him, that is. And he began massacring them on the ground- armed with only small arms, with fighter jets & bombers. We even had the decency to warn him to stop- although I have a feeling in my bones several were champing at the bit. Especially in the UK.

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

**Panda** · 10-04-2011, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Carrabow

That was my point

And my point was that Bfly's puerile witticisms depend on oversimplification, as you pointed out.

it's hardly oversimplification, the facts speak for themselves

NATO can't deploy a full conflict, that's the problem, and because of it they will keep bombing innocent civilians and rebels without distinction, and with no exit or end result in sight

a complete futile exercise,

Wishful thinking there methinks Butters.

NATO will slowly grind down Gaddafi's heavy weapons in the forward area, and indeed there may be some very isolated instances of civilians and allied rebels being killed. But it is certainly not indiscriminate bombing as you purport.

With Gaddafi's supply lines cut by NATO air strikes in the Eastern cities the disorganized rebels will slowly eradicate them. But thats going to leave the country divided into East and west, isolating Gaddafi from the bulk of his oil reserves. This thing could drag on for years or even decades. USA was wise to flick the cost of guarding the oil to the Europeans. I guess they have at least learned something from Iraq. A new state created under democratic principles may not be as compliant to western needs as one under a compliant dictator.

But yea, you are right that this thing is headed to be a big shitty mess for a long time unless Gaddafi and his team do a runner and bail out to live a life of luxury in some far off land. And that scenario seems most unlikely.

**Butterfly** · 10-04-2011, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

But it is certainly not indiscriminate bombing as you purport.

again you are assuming that NATO is a lean organization that can react quickly, and do things efficiently, and react to intelligence in RT

it's not, it's a 1950 tank trying to negotiate a U turn in a narrow street

Thread: The Libyan Crisis

Thread Tools

Display

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

Posting Permissions