The Libyan Crisis

**Mr Gribbs** · 30-03-2011, 09:35 PM

Here is the article I'm talking about, the rebels were going to cut off oil sales to Europe, that's why the Europeans were so gunho on getting rid of the Colonel. Who would think those warm and fuzzy Europeans would kill people for oil, I thought they gave that up 60 years ago, and their guns and cannons shoot hugs and kisses now, not bullets and bombs. I find it ironic none of their citizens are protesting over their countries bombing and killing people, I thought the French were always up for a protest? Why so quiet now? No hundreds of thousands of protesters in any European capitals..... Stunning!

The oil fields may stop flowing
TRIPOLI Feb 20 (Reuters) – The leader of the Al-Zuwayya tribe in eastern Libya threatened on Sunday to cut oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours unless authorities stop what he called the “oppression of protesters”. Speaking to Al Jazeera, Shaikh Faraj al Zuway said: “We will stop oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours” if the violence did not stop. The tribe lives south of Benghazi, which has seen the worst of the deadly violence in recent days. Akram Al-Warfalli, a leading figure in the Al Warfalla tribe, one of Libya’s biggest, told the channel: “We tell the brother (Gaddafi), well he’s no longer a brother, we tell him to leave the country.” The tribe live south of the capital Tripoli. (Reporting by Souhail Karam in Rabat; Writing by Marie-Louise Gumuchian; Editing by Jon Boyle) source – Reuters Africa

**StrontiumDog** · 30-03-2011, 10:11 PM

More happy news...

Moscow "alarmed" by reports of al-Qaeda presence in Libyan opposition — RT

Moscow "alarmed" by reports of al-Qaeda presence in Libyan opposition

Published: 30 March, 2011, 17:16

Image from alshahid.net

As Washington considers arming the Libyan opposition against the government of Muammar Gaddafi, Russia fears it might be putting weapons into the hands of the world’s most notorious terrorist group.

As questions concerning the identity of the Libyan opposition heat up in Washington, the US commander of NATO, Adm. James Stavridis, told a Senate hearing there were “flickers” in intelligence reports about the participation of al-Qaeda militants among the anti-Gaddafi forces.

Critics say this is one of the more glaring problems connected with the Obama administration’s impulsiveness to rush headlong into the fray: it never established a clear picture as to the exact nature of the “anti-Gaddafi” forces. “No full picture of the opposition has emerged,” Admiral Stavridis admitted, as quoted by The New York Times.

The NATO commander added that while eastern Libya was the center of Islamist protests in the late 1990s, it remains an open question as to how deep is al-Qaeda’s involvement.

“Al-Qaeda in that part of the country is obviously an issue,” a senior official said, as quoted by The Times.

Meanwhile, Moscow officials on Wednesday expressed alarm that al-Qaeda may be working inside the ranks of the Libyan opposition. “Quite alarming reports are coming, which say that al-Qaeda elements could very likely be present among the opposition forces,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters at a news conference. “This certainly alarms us.” Lavrov added that the “plague” in the form of al-Qaeda terrorism could “spread all over the region and not only there."

The Russian foreign minister was certainly referring to the possibility that any arms delivered to the Libyan opposition could all-too-easily slip into the hands of fundamentalists and extremists.
Russia, which just this week remembered the 40 people who were killed by a terrorist attack one year ago on the Moscow metro, has experienced too many brutal acts of terrorism to sit idly by as sophisticated weapons fall into the hands of potential troublemakers.

Lavrov, citing similar comments by the NATO secretary general, stressed that Russia does not want the NATO-led coalition to arm Libya's opposition forces. "The French foreign minister said recently that France was prepared to discuss with partners in the coalition arms deliveries for the Libyan opposition,” the Russian foreign minister said, while reiterating comments made by the NATO Secretary General Rasmussen who stressed that the operation in Libya “was meant to protect civilians, not to arm them.” “We fully agree with the NATO’s secretary general on that score," Lavrov said.

Yet the question remains: will US President Barack Obama allow the Libyan strongman to remain in power, thereby giving the American president's political opponents, the Republicans, plenty of campaign ammunition as the 2012 presidential elections loom? Probably not.

US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, citing the UN Security Council resolution that gives the coalition broad powers in protecting civilians, told her colleagues at the London conference that the US “had a right” to supply the opposition with arms.

However, such a move will seem out of sync with US foreign policy, which has been enforcing an arms embargo against Libya.

Obama said Tuesday that he was keeping all of the options on the table. “I’m not ruling it out, but I’m also not ruling it in,” he told NBC News. “We’re still making an assessment partly about what Gaddafi’s forces are going to be doing.”

According to the Times article, “some administration officials argue that supplying arms would further entangle the United States in a drawn-out civil war because the rebels would need to be trained to use any weapons, even relatively simple rifles and shoulder-fired anti-armor weapons. This could mean sending trainers.”

The New York Times, citing past American efforts to arm rebels, in Angola, Nicaragua, Afghanistan and elsewhere, said that the United States “has a deep, often unsuccessful, history of arming insurgencies.”

At the present moment, it is difficult to see how US and NATO efforts in Libya will end any more successfully than those misadventures in the past.

**sabang** · 30-03-2011, 10:18 PM

UK oil companies were doing quite well off the crumbs from the Libyan table- assisted of course by their fawning politicians. But thats what pollies are for really. Yet if anything, the UK- along with France- were more champing at the bit to hit Qaddafi when the revolt/ civil war came than the US. I think attempts to 'blame' the US for this are really dumb frankly.

The air strikes turned around the Qaddafi forces and were no humanitarian disaster, so thats a good thing- it probably prevented a massacre in the Benghazi region. The question is, what now? We hate Qaddafi in the west for a reason, but at the same time he has actually not really been a classic despot on the domestic front- actually, if you are born in Libya you are more likely to live to the age of five and beyond than if you are born in the USA. And the wealth disparity in Libya puts many of our western nations to shame. That, combined with the tribalism of Libya, means that the nutter Kernel has his share of domestic support too, mores the pity. It's not Egypt. Neither does it justify a land invasion. Neither is Qadafi 'president' or absolute dictator of Libya- actually I believe he holds no official title, rather describing himself as a benevolent 'father of the nation'. Of course he has power, but in a referential rather than titular sense. That leaves options.

I am not opposed to western actions so far in Libya, I think they were justified. I think the Obama admin has done a reasonable job of managing expectations too- it hasn't said they are unconditionally after ousting Qadaffi (although we'd all like to), it hasn't engaged in the naive rhetoric of the neo-cons a la Iraq ('they will welcome us with bouquets'). It has left itself a full quiver of options- including negotiation. Thats prudent, because this is not a slam dunk scenario. Perhaps we know Qadaffi- but how well do we know the rebels?

The answer to the situation, i think, will likely come at the negotiating table rather than the battlefield- and all the blowback, casualty & expense that entails. If necessary, we can hold that line in the sand and protect the 'rebels' while the situation plays itself out politically. We can incrementally screw down Qadaffi diplomatically and financially- these sanctions bite, and bite more as time progresses. Arming the Benghazi's would not be a desirable option, unless we exhaust all other possibilities. The rebels made a mistake chasing willy nilly after Qadafi's forces when they were turned by Nato airpower- they overstretched, and paid the price. So who is in command, anyone competent? And our mostly mutual hatred of Qadaffi should not blind us to reason, and the potential for compromise. Do we really know how opinions on the ground in Libya tally? Do we really know how united a front the rebels present? Disunited rebels inevitably turn on themselves like hyena's once the common enemy has been dispatched. We may just have to 'manage' them diplomatically as much as the Qadaffi loyalists.

The primary objective seems to have been achieved- preventing a slaughter. Beyond that, we should be careful what we wish for, and prepared to listen. We can keep Qadaffi's forces out of the Benghazi region, so we and they have breathing space- and should use it prudently. And we still want their oil.

**StrontiumDog** · 30-03-2011, 10:28 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/wo...obal&seid=auto

Qaddafi Forces Said to Lay Land Mines at City

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

Published: March 30, 2011

TRIPOLI, Libya — Militia loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi laid land mines on the edge of the city of Ajdabiya in eastern Libya, Human Rights Watch said in a statement Wednesday.

Peter Bouckaert, a researcher for the group working out of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi, said in the statement that both antivehicle and antipersonnel mines had been found in the ground. An electrical utility truck ran over and detonated two antipersonnel mines on Monday, and 24 antivehicle mines and more than 30 antipersonnel mines were later removed from the same area. No injuries were reported.

Because of the location, on the eastern outskirts of the city, and traffic around the area, Mr. Bouckaert concluded that the mines were planted by Qaddafi forces during the 10 days ending March 27 when Colonel Qaddafi last controlled Ajdabiya. A Libyan government stockpile of more mines was discovered in an arms depot in Benghazi as well.

The discovery of the mines could add to the case justifying international intervention in Libya on the grounds that if unchecked Colonel Qaddafi would threaten civilians in areas where rebels are challenging his four decades in power. Many countries have rejected the use of land mines because of their disproportionate toll on civilians, sometimes for decades after they were laid.

Libya is last known to have used land mines in its war with Chad during the 1980s. While most nations have signed a treaty restricting their use, the Qaddafi government has defended its right to employ them to defend Libya’s long borders.

**StrontiumDog** · 30-03-2011, 10:30 PM

Libya threatens to sue firms over rebel oil deals - Business - GMA News Online - Latest Philippine News

Libya threatens to sue firms over rebel oil deals

03/30/2011 | 09:53 PM

ALGIERS – Libya's government warned on Wednesday that it would sue any international company that concluded energy deals with rebels who control some of the country's oil infrastructure, the state news agency reported.

The threat is likely to make it more complicated for the rebels based in eastern Libya to sell oil on the international market, a trade they had been counting on to finance their insurgency against the rule of Muammar Gaddafi.

"The National Oil Corporation... is the entity authorized by law to deal with external parties. Because of the strategic importance of these goods – oil and gas – at the global level, no country can leave their management to armed gangs," said a government communique carried by the Jana news agency.

"The Libyan state will sue any party that seals deals regarding Libyan oil with parties other than the National Oil Corporation," it said.

A senior Libyan rebel official said on Sunday a Gulf oil producer, Qatar, had agreed to market oil produced from east Libyan fields that are no longer under Gaddafi's control.

On Monday, Qatar became the first Arab country to recognize the rebels. A US official said crude oil sales by Libyan rebels would not be subject to US sanctions if they were not connected to Gaddafi's government entities.

However, energy trading sources say shipping and legal risks mean it is unlikely the rebels will be able to market their oil abroad for several weeks. – Reuters

**StrontiumDog** · 30-03-2011, 10:36 PM

Latest Updates on Libyan War and Mideast Protests - NYTimes.com

9:58 A.M. Libyan Rebels Retreat From Another Eastern Town

My colleague C.J. Chivers reports from outside Brega, in eastern Libya:

With the momentum of ground combat tilting in favor of forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, rebels seeking to oust him embarked on a large-scale withdrawal from the coastal oil town of Brega on Wednesday - the latest in a string of apparent setbacks.

Rebel forces also said Colonel Qaddafi's troops had pushed them out of another oil town, Ras Lanuf, further west.

On the approaches to Brega, hundreds of cars and small trucks heading east clogged the highway as rebel forces pulled back toward Ajdabiyah, recaptured from loyalist troops only days ago. Some rebels said Colonel Qaddafi's forces, pushing eastward from Ras Lanuf, were within 10 miles of Brega. The retreating force seemed rudderless, a sea of vehicles and fighters armed with rudimentary weapons that have proved no match for Colonel Qaddafi's better trained and better armed forces.

As rebels clustered at a gas station and small mosque between Brega and Ajdabiyah, a single artillery shell or rocket exploded several hundred yards away, causing the rebels, who were chanting "God is great" and waving assault rifles, to jump into their vehicles and speed eastward.

The latest retreat means that government forces have now nearly erased all of the gains the rebels made over the weekend.

My colleagues on our graphics desk have produced this interactive map that tracks the shifting frontline in Libya.

**sabang** · 30-03-2011, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The retreating force seemed rudderless

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

"God is great"

Perhaps, but your leadership isn't.

**Butterfly** · 30-03-2011, 11:39 PM

what a fuckup, and we thought Iraq was bad

**Bower** · 31-03-2011, 01:38 AM

^ We all expected it to be a fuckup, didnt we ?
I was facinated by the new French Napoleon now he is in danger of being in the shadow of William Hague. Hauge is trying to emulate his hero Maggie Thatcher...god help us all !

**Sabai Prai** · 31-03-2011, 06:55 AM

Libyan Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa is in Britain and "no longer willing" to work for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's regime, the Foreign Office says.
He flew into an airport near the capital earlier on Wednesday.
He has subsequently spent hours talking to British officials.
His apparent defection comes as rebels in Libya are retreating from former strongholds along the eastern coast as Colonel Gaddafi's forces advance.
The rebels have now lost the key oil port of Ras Lanuf and the nearby town of Bin Jawad, and are also in full retreat from Brega. In the west, the rebel-held town of Misrata is still reportedly coming under attack from pro-Gaddafi troops, reports say.
'Own free will' A British Foreign Office spokesperson said: "We can confirm that Moussa Koussa arrived at Farnborough Airport on 30 March from Tunisia. He travelled here under his own free will.
"He has told us that he is resigning his post. We are discussing this with him and we will release further detail in due course.
"Moussa Koussa is one of the most senior figures in Gaddafi's government and his role was to represent the regime internationally - something that he is no longer willing to do.
"We encourage those around Gaddafi to abandon him and embrace a better future for Libya that allows political transition and real reform that meets the aspirations of the Libyan people."
A senior US administration official, speaking to AFP News agency on condition of anonymity, said: "This is a very significant defection and an indication that people around Gaddafi think the writing's on the wall."
Earlier, British Foreign Secretary William Hague announced that five Libyan diplomats were being expelled from the country.
He told MPs that the five, who include the military attache, "could pose a threat" to Britain's security.

Story continues here BBC News - Libya: Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa 'defects to UK'

**Butterfly** · 31-03-2011, 07:21 AM

defection, that's all they can get, pathetic

Obama really fucked up, he jumped the gun, now the Republitards will have enough ammunition to go after him

with a bad economy, and high unemployment, I guess a small war distraction was much needed for the American public

**Sabai Prai** · 31-03-2011, 07:37 AM

^You really do talk a load of bollocks.

**Butterfly** · 31-03-2011, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs

You're wrong, France and the UK were the ones who started it

says who ? you ? the facts speak otherwise,

do you really think that France or the UK will start something like that without clearing first with their headmaster ? how naive are you ?

Sarko is a lackey and a disgrace, everyone in France hates him, and he just lost some local elections again

**Butterfly** · 31-03-2011, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

^You really do talk a load of bollocks.

what's wrong Faux boy ? don't like facing the truth outside your little world ?

**koman** · 31-03-2011, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs

the rebels they seem to be indiscriminately firing in the air, or at God knows what. To think they, a group of people with no military training aren't killing their fair share of civilians is absurd. Funny how the Western press doesn't mention this.

The rebels are civilians, or at least most of them are. Why would people with no military training kill civilians......and they are firing into the air.... maybe they are trying to kill flying civilians? Maybe the western press doesn't mention it because it's not happening..... talk about convoluted logic.

France and UK are only doing this because they are afraid if they don't, the rebels wont sell them oil? How about Denmark, Norway, Canada.........actually all 28 NATO members now....and a total of 40 nations at the London conference...all on side. Are they all concerned about getting Libyan oil because some old crone of a tribal leader made a ridiculous statement? Norway and Canada are totally self sufficient in oil....actually exporters of oil....what is their motivation? As far as the US concerned....no oil from Libya either....and very low down on their list of strategic priorities. Maybe France bullied them into it..........in this fantasy land of TD anything is possible.....

**Cujo** · 31-03-2011, 09:30 AM

on the news last night a U.S. defence force spokesman saying they have reason to suspect that Al Quaida are involved in the uprising (not not EVIDENCE that they ARE) of course they (Al Quaida) will be trying to exploit the situation by involving themselves in some way and positioning themselves to take control if the rebels win.
Another M.E. quagmire.
If the rebels win the west will have another never ending war on their hands, if Ghaddafi wins it will be a bloodbath and as some commentator mentioned, he bears grudges heavily and won't forget who went against him.

**good2bhappy** · 31-03-2011, 09:36 AM

information coming out that Obama has signed a presidential order authorising covert action in libya

**Norton** · 31-03-2011, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Koojo

U.S. defence force spokesman saying they have reason to suspect that Al Quaida are involved

The wacky Colonel told us this weeks ago. Maybe he's not as wacky as portrayed.

**Sabai Prai** · 31-03-2011, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

The wacky Colonel told us this weeks ago. Maybe he's not as wacky as portrayed.

He even sent an email to the US President saying as much and asking him for his advice on what he should do.

**Tom Sawyer** · 31-03-2011, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Koojo

on the news last night a U.S. defence force spokesman saying they have reason to suspect that Al Quaida are involved in the uprising

Interesting as that's exactly what Gaddafi said from the beginning (and the son also said later)

**sabang** · 31-03-2011, 01:35 PM

AQ is just a bogeyman- the Syrian leader is saying the same thing about the protests there. There is virtually no Al Qaeda involvement in N Africa & Syria. There isn't even much al Qaeda left. No doubt the Israeli's & associates are stoking up the nonsense too- any chance to get out their well polished begging bowl will be exploited, as usual.

**Boon Mee** · 31-03-2011, 02:06 PM

Al-Qaeda fighters can’t believe their luck that Americans are helping them bomb the Gaddafi regime back to the Stone Age.

As the battle for the future of Libya continues, the excitement is almost palpable among Libyan-born al Qaeda fighters and other Arabs hunkered down in Pakistan’s remote and lawless tribal area. According to Afghan Taliban sources close to Osama bin Laden’s terrorist group, some of the 200 or so Libyans operating near the Afghan border may be on their way home to steer the anti-Gaddafi revolution in a more Islamist direction.
“We have heard a number of fighters have already departed from the tribal area,” says an Afghan commander who is linked to the powerful Haqqani network, a North Waziristan-based organization that shelters many al Qaeda fighters. Others may be on their way. “Libyans and Arabs seem to be getting ready for departure and are eager to go home and fight,” says the Afghan source. “I’ve heard that some fighters are saying goodbye and giving thanks with kind words to their (Pakistani) tribal friends who have been sheltering them.”  
Since the anti-Gaddafi revolution began last month, al Qaeda—especially Libyan-born affiliates—have viewed the fighting as an opportunity to spread their radical Islamist ideology. Indeed, as one Afghan Taliban operative who helps facilitate the movement of al Qaeda militants between the tribal area and Pakistani cities told The Daily Beast earlier this month: “This rebellion is the fresh breeze they’ve been waiting years for. They realize that if they don’t use this opportunity, it could be the end of their chances to turn Libya toward a real Islamic state, as Afghanistan once was.”
Now, as the White House and NATO continue to debate the possible ramifications of arming the Libyan opposition, the Haqqani network-linked Afghan commander says Libyan al Qaeda affiliates seem to be more “enthusiastic” about the war against Gaddafi every day. And from what the Afghan Taliban commander has seen, there appears to be more than “flickers” of al Qaeda’s presence in Libya, the description given by NATO commander Admiral James Stavridis. According to the Afghan commander, al Qaeda fighters can’t believe their good luck that U.S. and NATO aircraft—the same forces that have dropped bombs on their heads in Afghanistan and Pakistan—are now raining down ordnance against Gaddafi.

Al Qaeda

**Cujo** · 31-03-2011, 02:22 PM

Well at least it's getting them out of Pakistan.
Maybe it's one big game like the cop trick where they sent out notices to all the crims in a district with outstanding warrants that they'd won a prize and had to go ta some wharehouse to pick it up. When they arrived to collect their prize they were nabbed.

**Butterfly** · 31-03-2011, 02:37 PM

The Republicans and birthers are creaming in their pants, they will have grounds now to impeach President Obama

**sabang** · 31-03-2011, 02:45 PM

Somehow, I doubt any of my esteemed colleagues at TD have authored positive thing manuals.

The airstrikes stopped Qadaffi's forces in their tracks, and prevented a bloodbath in the Benghazi region. Exactly in line with their stated objective.

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