Thread: An American Future

strewth.
if anything does kick off then i don't think there
will be any save place to head for.
unless you're a milton keynes supporter !!

The game isn’t over in the US, but the smart money is that the first revolution in the US isn’t going to be a revolution of the left, it’s going to be a nutbar revolution from the right, and it is going to be extraordinarily ugly.

In the meantime, if you have to stay, make sure you’re on good terms with your neighbors, your spouse, your friends and your family. Figure out how to grow food wherever you are and how to reduce your dependence on anything but people you trust. (Don’t trust any corporation.) And, if you can, organize. Organize locally, organize at the State level, organize nationally. Understand the age of compromise is over. It is now too late to save the old system. It’s over. We tried, and we failed. It is beyond “reform”, it is going to flame out, the only question is how many people it will burn to death as it does so.

Shocking but I can see this happening someday. Day by day, Americans are proving that they are just like all the people they paint evil. Right wing nutters may intitiate it but if they did, I would think that all the staff off fox news and their familes as mentioned in the article would be targeted and killed off in the first few months of the revolution. It will be a revolution if it ever happens. These things happen continuosly throughout history.

Where is this article from anyways? It's from a blog. If it were on a mainstream news station like Fox or CNN, we should be a bit worried. Glenn Beck is mainstream and he continously goes on about the coming end of American days.

Back to the land. 10 acres and a mule. Dig a shelter. Join a commune. Where have we heard this bullshit before.....oh yes I remember...left wing fruit cakes and anarchist groups have been saying stuff like this every time there has been a slump, for as long as I can remember. For most, puberty ends, they grow up, maybe even get a job and join the real world...well at least some of them. The rest will spend their whole lives waiting for the sky to fall or the sun not to appear each morning. WTF is Ian Welsh anyway... he's staring into a "looking glass" and the snow is falling...and it's winter in America ..Wow..those are definitely signs......

Originally Posted by koman

left wing fruit cakes and anarchist groups have been saying stuff like this every time there has been a slump

Think you'll find it's more associated with the Right wing survivalist crowd these days.

There definitely seems to be a deliberate policy from the Republicans to starve the central government of funds, and thus send it into effective insolvency. Many State governments are already close to insolvency. This means that both government services and spending will have to be reduced considerably as part of downsizing, which is of course the objective.

What effect this may have on social stability, and personal security, is unclear. Perhaps there will be an increasing amount of local communalisation, or viewed from a different angle, ghettoisation.

left wing fruit cakes and anarchist groups

Are you joking? What world have you been living in. The right wingers are the ones who have always preached that some dangerous enemy is trying to overthrown the world and the right wingers are the nutters with all the weapons, bomb shelters, and gold stocked up for 'the imminent end.' You really must be living on another planet. I hope you don't watch Fox news because if you can't see that that right wing station is sponsoring the most wacked out conspiracy-promoting individual that has ever been on mainstream American TV, you really are out of it.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

the most wacked out conspiracy-promoting individual that has ever been on mainstream American TV,

That would be Beck, and yes you are right.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

left wing fruit cakes and anarchist groups

Are you joking? What world have you been living in. The right wingers are the ones who have always preached that some dangerous enemy is trying to overthrown the world and the right wingers are the nutters with all the weapons, bomb shelters, and gold stocked up for 'the imminent end.' You really must be living on another planet. I hope you don't watch Fox news because if you can't see that that right wing station is sponsoring the most wacked out conspiracy-promoting individual that has ever been on mainstream American TV, you really are out of it.

Yes there are right wing nutters too, I never suggested otherwise. There are all kinds of nutters who come up with these doomsday scenarios and they are all equally worthy of being ignored. My comments were in reference to a particular view of the state of things in American and the world.

Funny how you always seem to think that anyone who does not share your own particularly anti American view of everything lives on another planet. These nutters collectively probably represent a pretty small percentage of the population. They are just annoying because of the noise they make and the occasional disruptions they cause.

Each generation has it's own causes and its own lunatic fringe. It's been around for a long long time. I'm quite sure that when Mr. Welsh drags himself away from his looking glass, and winter gives way to spring he will be OK, as will America and the world in general. Crisis, unlike stupidity is a temporary condition.

^agree with most of that post. Personally, I feel extremely angry at what has happened in America. Rather than being a polarizer, I am being the one polarized. I wasn't so infuriated at the right wing in the past; that was before I got Fox news. I do feel extreme hate towards the sick right wingers in the US now. Fox news has no accountability for what it broadcasts. MSNBC is rising to counter Fox. Every time the right wingers criticize MSNBC specifically they prove their own lie was a lie. That lie is that the 'mainstream media' is biased. If it has been biased all these years then why would MSNBC be more upsetting.

The original post does reflect the feelings of a lot of Americans. It's a bit extreme but there is enough hate out there to start something. In the end the states might look something like this. It's almost the American revolution in reverse.

Originally Posted by koman

Each generation has it's own causes and its own lunatic fringe. It's been around for a long long time. I'm quite sure that when Mr. Welsh drags himself away from his looking glass, and winter gives way to spring he will be OK, as will America and the world in general. Crisis, unlike stupidity is a temporary condition.

Crisis was not a temporary condition during the later stages of Imperial Rome, the Britain Empire or the Soviet Union. Obama may very well turn out to be America's Gorbachev, i.e., an affable and intelligent man presiding over an unraveling world power. With costly faraway wars and spiraling government debt, the USA seems to be following the trajectory of the Soviet Union during its later years. Whoever Ian Welch is, he has an historical perspective that seems to be lacking in your analysis.


An excerpt from Pat Buchanan's 2009 article "A Decade of Self-delusion":

"About the first decade of what was to be the Second American Century, the pessimists have been proven right.

According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade."

A Decade of Self-Delusion - HUMAN EVENTS

Originally Posted by GooMaiRoo

Originally Posted by koman

Each generation has it's own causes and its own lunatic fringe. It's been around for a long long time. I'm quite sure that when Mr. Welsh drags himself away from his looking glass, and winter gives way to spring he will be OK, as will America and the world in general. Crisis, unlike stupidity is a temporary condition.

Crisis was not a temporary condition during the later stages of Imperial Rome, the Britain Empire or the Soviet Union. Obama may very well turn out to be America's Gorbachev, i.e., an affable and intelligent man presiding over an unraveling world power. With costly faraway wars and spiraling government debt, the USA seems to be following the trajectory of the Soviet Union during its later years. Whoever Ian Welch is, he has an historical perspective that seems to be lacking in your analysis.


An excerpt from Pat Buchanan's 2009 article "A Decade of Self-delusion":

"About the first decade of what was to be the Second American Century, the pessimists have been proven right.

According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade."

A Decade of Self-Delusion - HUMAN EVENTS

I have no disagreement with the idea that America is declining as a world power. That is self evident. Every world power in history has seen periods of growth, prosperity and eventual decline.

Clearly, there is a redistribution of power and wealth around the world. That is nothing new. There have been many changes of that guard throughout history. The doomsday scenarios propagated by both extremes of the political spectrum are just hype and nonsense however.

America may not continue to have its own way in the world the way we became accustomed to seeing throughout the second half of the 20th century, because other countries continue to grow in economic and military power, but it will still be a critical component of the world economy, and it will continue be a major military power and continue to have a major influence in the world.

America has enormous resources, infrastructure and ability to recover from it's current situation. Probably more that any other country in the world, but nobody seems to notice that because they are so busy developing their "anybody but American" theories.

I realize that the rabid America haters wish it were otherwise, but they will just have to put up with it, because it ain't going away....

Originally Posted by GooMaiRoo

Originally Posted by koman

America has enormous resources, infrastructure and ability to recover from it's current situation. Probably more that any other country in the world, but nobody seems to notice that because they are so busy developing their "anybody but American" theories.
I realize that the rabid America haters wish it were otherwise, but they will just have to put up with it, because it ain't going away....

If someone believes that America is imploding socially, it doesn't logically follow that he wants it to happen. It simply means that he believes America is imploding socially.

Granted. It does not logically follow, but when people write articles like the OP, it's easy to get the impression that they do wish for it to implode. There are lots of posters on TD who respond to everything from a purely anti-American position.
Just bring down the USA, and a wonderful new world will unfold....yeah right.

A world order dominated by Russian mobsters, reptilian Chinese generals or degenerate Arab oil sheiks does not sound like fun. I'm actually saddened that a world power like the USA, the country of Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy, seems to be degenerating into a banana republic.

Yes, American did seem like a very different place when you watch old re-runs of "Leave it to Beaver" or "Happy Days" That however was not the real America any more than the current version portrayed by the news media and parts of the entertainment industry...which can be difficult to tell apart sometimes.

The vast majority of Americans are working and earning a good living. Corporations are enjoying healthy profits (yes I know..dirty word to the left) and recent reports seem to shown that the national crime rate is actually going down, which is a bit unusual during an economic downturn..

I really don't know where this social "implosion" bit is coming from. There was far more unrest during the 1960ies and everybody came through just fine. Even with all of the problems, real and imaginary the US is still one of the very best places on the planet to be. Even if it became a banana republic it would definitely be the best banana republic ever....

Most of the fear and hype has been generated by competing political fractions supported by a hungry news media, who operate on the basis that the more they sensationalize everything the better the ratings, and revenues.

I'm not American...and I don't judge by anything I hear on Fox news....where everything is "chilling" or "shocking" and we get those wonderful guest interviews, where the guest is not allowed to actually speak... That unfortunately is how many people see American, but that's just Fox, which despite their constant ravings about being number one, does not represent anything more than a small fraction of America. I think many people turn Fox on just to have some background noise.

How America projects itself around the world always seems to be quite different to how it actually "is". At least that has been my experience of the place. I maintain contact with several friends in different parts of the US and they are all quite optimistic about the future, despite all the gloom and doom merchants who always seem to get most of the attention. That much has never changed.

Originally Posted by koman

Yes, American did seem like a very different place when you watch old re-runs of "Leave it to Beaver" or "Happy Days" That however was not the real America any more than the current version portrayed by the news media and parts of the entertainment industry...which can be difficult to tell apart sometimes.

The vast majority of Americans are working and earning a good living. Corporations are enjoying healthy profits (yes I know..dirty word to the left) and recent reports seem to shown that the national crime rate is actually going down, which is a bit unusual during an economic downturn..

I really don't know where this social "implosion" bit is coming from. There was far more unrest during the 1960ies and everybody came through just fine. Even with all of the problems, real and imaginary the US is still one of the very best places on the planet to be. Even if it became a banana republic it would definitely be the best banana republic ever....

I'm thinking that a good banana republic would have low taxes, legalized prostitution, few military entanglements and a minimum of regulations. The USA fails on all counts. Thailand is still far preferable as a banana republic.

Perhaps the USA's crime rate is going down because over 2 million of its citizens are currently incarcerated, by far the highest rate among major countries. This makes the streets safer but doesn't indicate a healthy society.

The USA was never a perfect society but there are big differences between 2010 and the 1960's. The USA had an strong industrial base and vital middle class in the 1960's. The anti-war movement and black rioting were phenomena that generally did not affect a vital, contented and productive middle class.

The old industrial elites welcomed a strong middle class because it bought their products and services. The Wall Street financial elite that has grown in power and influence couldn't care less about America's middle class. In fact, Wall Street welcomes the ability to profit off of America's misery with credit default swaps and other exotic financial instruments. When things fall apart, Wall Street bankers can simply move their investment money to other parts of the world in a matter of milliseconds.

Literacy is in serious decline. Just try holding an intelligent conversation with an average American high school student. The ones that work at fast food restaurants because of their parents' shrinking paychecks can barely calculate your change. Would an uneducated hillbilly like Sara Palin be taken seriously as a presidential candidate in previous generations?

But the biggest difference between now and then is the increasing political polarization within the middle class. I've never heard the terms Marxist and Fascist thrown around so freely by Americans when referring to their political opposition. Americans rarely engage in polite political discussions anymore. Political civility has all but disappeared both in Washington and on Main Street. Something very unsettling is happening to the social fabric of the USA and a deep recession is only making things worse.

America has always been a nation struggling with itself. The civil war, prohibition, McCarthyism and racism have all torn at the fabric of our society and divided us as a nation. The notion that America has some kind of moral edge on any other society is
just a myth.
What worries me is that America has some fundamental structural flaws that make it difficult to make progress. Many hold on to these flaws as sacred cows. Until we are able to seriously modernize our concept of government we will continue to de-evolve and weaken. We are running out of time to find our way out of our current horrible predicament.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Shocking but I can see this happening someday. Day by day, Americans are proving that they are just like all the people they paint evil. .

Yes, it is quite shocking that the majority of Americans Say They’re Worse Off Under Obama, Two-Thirds Believe Country Headed in Wrong Direction:

More than 50 percent of Americans say they are worse off now than they were two years ago when President Barack Obama took office, and two-thirds believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, a Bloomberg National Poll shows.

The survey, conducted Dec. 4-7, finds that 51 percent of respondents think their situation has deteriorated, compared with 35 percent who say they’re doing better. The balance isn’t sure. Americans have grown more downbeat about the country’s future in just the last couple of months, the poll shows. The pessimism cuts across political parties and age groups, and is common to both sexes.

The negative sentiment may cast a pall over the holiday shopping season, according to the poll. A plurality of those surveyed — 46 percent — expects to spend less this year than last; only 12 percent anticipate spending more. Holiday sales rose by just under a half percent last year after falling by almost 4 percent in 2008

Most Americans say they're worse off under Obama, poll shows

Really?

Worse off after the biggest financial collapse for decades??

Really?

And you appear to be shocked or amazed by this revelation.

Please remind us again, who was it that was president when this disaster was happening? Who had 8 YEARS and did not nothing (in fact helped it along...!).turning a record surplus into a record deficit....

Who might that be BM??

And who inherited this colossal disaster and has had to try to sort it out?

You understand cause and effect, right? Or do you only live in the moment...

Originally Posted by sabang

Think you'll find it's more associated with the Right wing survivalist crowd these days.

Au contraire there K. sabang. Just look to the Left for the following: Overheated Rhetoric? Try Frances Fox Piven.

There's no shortage of the "overheated rhetoric" liberals are blaming for Jared Loughner's psychosis, but contrary to the propaganda spewed by the New York Times, MSNBC, et al., the worst of it comes from their own camp — including from someone who had a major influence on Comrade Obama's economic policy:

She's considered by many as the grandmother of using the American welfare state to implement revolution. Make people dependent on the government, overload the government rolls, and once government services become unsustainable, the people will rise up, overthrow the oppressive capitalist system, and finally create income equality. Collapse the system and create a new one. That's the simplified version of Frances Fox Piven's philosophy originally put forth in the pages of The Nation in the 60s.

Now, as the new year ball drops, Piven is at it again, ringing in 2011 with renewed calls for revolution.

In a chilling and almost unbelievable editorial again in The Nation ("Mobilizing the Jobless," January 10/17, 2011 edition), she calls on the jobless to rise up in a violent show of solidarity and force. As before, those calls are dripping with language of class struggle. Language she and her late husband Richard Cloward made popular in the 60s.

"So where are the angry crowds, the demonstrations, sit-ins and unruly mobs?" she writes. "After all, the injustice is apparent. Working people are losing their homes and their pensions while robber-baron CEOs report renewed profits and windfall bonuses. Shouldn't the unemployed be on the march? Why aren't they demanding enhanced safety net protections and big initiatives to generate jobs?"

Those are the questions that frame what can best be called a roadmap for revolution. And it's not long before those questions give way to directions. The first instruction: get angry.

"[b]efore people can mobilize for collective action, they have to develop a proud and angry identity and a set of claims that go with that identity," she writes. "They have to go from being hurt and ashamed to being angry and indignant."

And along with anger must come a denunciation of personal responsibility. Instead, workers must realize that others have put them in their current, uneasy situation: "[T]he out-of-work have to stop blaming themselves for their hard times and turn their anger on the bosses, the bureaucrats or the politicians who are in fact responsible."

Only then, once their rage has been properly stoked, can the angry take action. And when they do, she says, the "protesters need targets."

Too bad no one ever let go with this kind of ranting onstage at a Tea Party, eh?

Ripped from here

Originally Posted by Humbert

What worries me is that America has some fundamental structural flaws that make it difficult to make progress. Many hold on to these flaws as sacred cows. Until we are able to seriously modernize our concept of government we will continue to de-evolve and weaken. We are running out of time to find our way out of our current horrible predicament.

most excellent point and basically the core of the problem,

Originally Posted by Humbert

America has always been a nation struggling with itself. The civil war, prohibition, McCarthyism and racism have all torn at the fabric of our society and divided us as a nation. The notion that America has some kind of moral edge on any other society is
just a myth.
What worries me is that America has some fundamental structural flaws that make it difficult to make progress. Many hold on to these flaws as sacred cows. Until we are able to seriously modernize our concept of government we will continue to de-evolve and weaken. We are running out of time to find our way out of our current horrible predicament.

Well said, Humbert ...

Like all political rhetoric I hear these days, this is a one sided repetitive argument that shows no forward thinking. In other words, it is all BS. I get tired of hearing the one sided arguments between the US politicians these days, but the sad news is that it probably will never change. Until the people recapture the country and find they actually have a say in what happens, nothing will change. Without change, you stagnate which is where America is today. Not a new idea, just a different time in history. America has forever tried to convince the public they can make a difference. BS!!!!!!!!!!!! The American public is so brainwashed into thinking you just need to vote and things will change. The politicians are the only ones who know the truth that this is all perpetuated to suit the politicians needs and their job security. If all politicians were thrown out of office and we started fresh, I don't think anything would change since our political system just goes right back to business as usual after the elections. It reminds me of having elections in elementary school and promising everyone ice cream every day, knowing full well it wont happen. The US government is not different. They promise change, but nothing ever really changes no matter if the president, congress and senate are democrat or republican. NOTHING EVER CHANGES...
With this said, America is not that bad a place to live and the opportunities for employment are much better there than most other countries. Why is that? To keep the money flowing to pay taxes. It is the politicians job to always dangle the carrot of change that will never come. It is the president's job to promise to keep an eye on the politicians. It is the citizen's job to keep working and paying taxes to keep the country solvent. If any of this equation were to change, a new form of government would be needed. I do not see this happening until the country either has a revolution, which I do not think will happen, or America's world credit goes to zero.
In case anyone hasn't already figured it out, CHANGE, is the operative word of how America will regain it's respectability in the world community.Personally, I always planned to leave the US and retire somewhere else. This was how I would CHANGE. That somewhere else, for me, is Thailand.

Originally Posted by Humbert

America has always been a nation struggling with itself. The civil war, prohibition, McCarthyism and racism have all torn at the fabric of our society and divided us as a nation. The notion that America has some kind of moral edge on any other society is
just a myth.
What worries me is that America has some fundamental structural flaws that make it difficult to make progress. Many hold on to these flaws as sacred cows.

The greatest flaw, worse than all those above, is religion and how it has replaced logic and debate, with irrationality and conceit. The US wasn't founded on such notions as blind faith and in-culpability.

Originally Posted by Humbert

What worries me is that America has some fundamental structural flaws that make it difficult to make progress.

What?

Like America hasn't adopted socialism yet?