Thread: Copenhaghen

The full tile of the articles is:- "China sabotaged Copenhagen deal to humiliate Obama and developed countries"

They should have just stuck with the first three words- China, with India's tacit approval, did indeed sabotage Copenhagen in terms of what the Developed world was wanting, which was significantly more done to control Greenhouse gas emissions. Just as I would have expected, although to say it was to humiliate Obama/ the Developed countries betrays a lack of knowledge of the Chinese, I think. Their aim (as always) is nothing more than self interest- self interest, and international harm being two sides of the same coin in Chinese thinking. If the outside world is willing to add billions of dollars to the cost of doing business on environmental initiatives but the Chinese can avoid that cost, or spend significantly less, all the better- more money for us then, and our competitors weakened. Another, recurrent theme is keeping foreign devil noses out of what goes on in the "Central" country. They are happy to have Underlings mutter vague assurances that China will toe the line- as long as foreign barbarians cannot barge into China and actually check they are toeing the line. Yet, the Chinese (who are far from dumb), are also at the forefront of developing environmentally friendly technologies to sell to us.

So par for the course, absolutely no surprises there. Without making any sweeping assesments about what mankinds contribution may or may not be to global warming etc, I remain utterly sceptical to what extent large scale international co-operation can do anything tangible about it. This is not to say that we shouldn't try though. When the shit hits the fan- for example a severe economic slump, or civil disobedience because of environmental rules/ & costs- the first thing a country would do is ditch Copenhagen, or Kyoto. It will act in it's own self interest- or in the case of China, gleefully pursue 'beggar thy neighbour' policies. It is only the EU that is genuinely interested in doing much meaningful about climate control at this stage, which means paying the price. The US, even under Obama, pays lip service to international co-operation on global warming- and is certainly willing to walk the walk more than China- but when it comes down to it only on it's own terms and limitations. The US has not reduced greenhouse gas emissions as much as the EU, and pointedly leaves the Pentagon out of any climate control considerations. This is significant- as an organisation the Pentagon/ US military is the worlds biggest polluter, indeed if it were a country it would be a significant national polluter in it's own right!

Too many different players and competing agenda's to get much achieved here. Plus in these economic times, it is hard to get the man on the street interested in yet another significant wealth transfer from the Developed to the Undeveloped world- especially as the main players in the rapidly Developing world, China and India, are quite happy to see us pay for it while they escape the main costs and commitments. As we all know, if and when this whole thing becomes critical- population shifts and climatic zone changes- it will already be too late. The article-

Mark Lynas, a journalist for The Guardian, was an eyewitness in Copenhagen who claims he watched China deliberately sabotage the climate deal that President Barack Obama tried to broker on Friday. China’s strategy all along was to make it look as if the U.S. and its western allies had failed the world’s poor once more according to Lynas, who writes:

The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful "deal" so western leaders would walk away carrying the blame. How do I know this? Because I was in the room and saw it happen.

Mr. Lynas was attached to the Maldives delegation, observed and uncovered some very interesting tidbits of how China uses other countries as pawns to achieve their objectives to rule the next century. For example, Sudanese delegate Lumumba Di-Aping, who self-appointed himself spokesperson for the entire world’s downtrodden, called the climate agreement a “suicide pact”. However, according to Mr. Lynas, Sudan is nothing more than a rapscallion lackey for the Chinese, whose motives were anything but pure:

Sudan behaves at the talks as a puppet of China; one of a number of countries that relieves the Chinese delegation of having to fight its battles in open sessions. It was a perfect stitch-up. China gutted the deal behind the scenes, and then left its proxies to savage it in public.

Lynas goes on to say that Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jinbao disrespected Obama and the other world leaders by sending a surrogate to negotiate the deal, in one of the oldest negotiations tricks in the book, the old “I have to check with my boss” gimmick, according to Mr. Lynas:

What I saw was profoundly shocking. The Chinese premier, Wen Jinbao, did not deign to attend the meetings personally, instead sending a second-tier official in the country's foreign ministry to sit opposite Obama himself. The diplomatic snub was obvious and brutal, as was the practical implication: several times during the session, the world's most powerful heads of state were forced to wait around as the Chinese delegate went off to make telephone calls to his "superiors".

China then systemically roadblocked progress every step of the way and did their utmost to strip out all the most critical targets and numbers, making the deal essentially worthless. The only purpose China served that day was as an obstacle:

A 2020 peaking year in global emissions, essential to restrain temperatures to 2C, was removed and replaced by woolly language suggesting that emissions should peak "as soon as possible". The long-term target, of global 50% cuts by 2050, was also excised. No one else, perhaps with the exceptions of India and Saudi Arabia, wanted this to happen. I am certain that had the Chinese not been in the room, we would have left Copenhagen with a deal that had environmentalists popping champagne corks in every corner of the world.
On Tuesday, India continued to snub their nose at the developed countries that wanted to make a deal as Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh was elated that Brazil, South Africa, India and China, now referred to as the BASIC group, were able to thwart the “relentless efforts” of “rich” countries to impose legally binding carbon emission targets (God forbid we set goals to reduce pollution and harmful gases ).

Unfortunately, in a sign of things to come, the head of the United Nations panel on climate change Rajendra Pachauri asserted that the emergence of the BASIC countries will render developed nations impotent in crafting an agreement on climate change without them.

What seems even more perplexing is how China not only blocked the insertion of performance metrics to monitor and verify the progress of the BASIC nations, but was able to insidiously, not to mention remarkably, obstruct other countries from adding their own.

What is China’s motive? Lynas contests that China wants to weaken climate regulation because they have the most to lose, considering the foundation of their economy is cheap coal, and as China’s coal-based economy doubles every decade its power grows commensurately. Lynas concludes:

Copenhagen was much worse than just another bad deal, because it illustrated a profound shift in global geopolitics. This is fast becoming China's century, yet its leadership has displayed that multilateral environmental governance is not only not a priority, but is viewed as a hindrance to the new superpower's freedom of action.

China sabotaged Copenhagen deal to humiliate Obama and developed countries

Plain fact- the Basic countries are only interested in emission control agreements agreements if they will relatively benefit them at the expense of the Developed countries. Plus the US itself is only willing to go 'so far'. So the EU is powerless in the overall equation. They just have the nicest cities.

China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful "deal" so western leaders would walk away carrying the blame

Don't actually agree with this though- I think the journo is betraying his disappointment as a committed Greenie. Under the circumstances, Obama save the Copenhagen summit from being a total debacle in his whirlwind visit. The problem with Progressives is their habit of shooting themselves in the foot- they'd prefer No Deal to a half baked, partial deal- but all too often sacrifice making any progress at all in the process.

What interested me most though where the readers comments on the above article :-

YES! says:
The small country of so-called united kingdom; who by the way needs to return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, let Scotland and Wales become fully independent Republics; has not done its share to protect the environment. The so-called brits are the filthiest and the ugliest peeps on earth and they need to shoot themselves in the head. All in the name of SAVING the environment!
December 27, 5:59 PM

somo says:
1> developed nations including America are the reason we have climate change. (80% of past emission stock)
2> while the Americans did not even sign kyoto the europeans who did sign it did not meet the targets accepted by themselves.
3> the waxman markey bill touted as america's response to the climate threat if implemented would see American percapita emissions 3 times above the 2005 world percapita average.
4> developping countries like India would have a percapita emission at least 4times less than the US in 2020, even if they kept growing without taking the emission intensity targets She has declared.

so in conclusion copenhagen was a failure but it was a failure when the developed countries failed to succeed the reductions implied under kyoto. this failure was furthur compounded by the total innaction of the US (waxman-markey is a waste of time compared to the required cuts.)
In such a situation it is the best option to bully the developping world to take large reduction
December 26, 2:58 PM

Pfft says:
Yes, yes, the west is evil and China is wonderful; what with all that pollution, corruption and locking people up for 11 years for having opinions. They're great! You guys really have a sense of perspective. I now see the evils of representative democracy, individual liberty and multi-lateral environmental protection. How much does a blog spammer get paid by the party these days anyway? Do you get paid more or less if you're not spamming the BBC?
December 25, 9:19 AM

Leo says:
I will be surprise if China didn't counter back your hooligan's requirement. British ruined the world for 300 years and American are still ruining now. What did you say? Humiliate? Yes, you deserve the humiliation for yourself. Loser!
December 25, 3:50 AM

Examiner Reader says:
Obama does a pretty darned good job of humiliating himself, as well as the American people, no assistance needed!
December 24, 9:58 AM

BinaryTofu says:
Guys, we are in this together. I am definitely very disappointed with China considering Obama is as close as we can get to making real changes today. To claim that "you messed it up and you should clean it yourself" is totally irresponsible. The truth is that the damage is done and we should work together to fix it. To only have western countries to clean it up while other countries to pollute it is totally insane! why would you want to make the same mistakes!

This could be the first example of how China would use their power to bully other countries. And it seems that they'll be better than the west in this!
December 24, 5:02 AM

Charles Prince Homo III says:
The writer of this article and the journalist of The Guardian are both very dishonest and not worthy as reporters. They are expressing their own biased opinions rather than objectively reporting the news. But....than again that is the media from the West. They falsify "news" to fit their own agendas and they exclaim their propaganda as the "truth." Well.... maybe THEIR truth, NO?!?
December 23, 11:39 PM

To hell with the white christian devils says:
The US and the Western European countries, as the empire and the colonialists, for two centuries have polluted the earth during their industrialization process and now all of a sudden they have become tree huggers. Their hypocrisy is both perplexing and amusing for everybody else sees them for who they are. To this day the "Western" countries their per capita emission is more than that of CHINA so they should first look at them selves before pointing fingers at others.
December 23, 11:32 PM

Dr P Singh says:
Western Imperialist SHUTUP.

YOU HAVE BROUGHT EARTH TO THIS STATE. YOU HAVE DONE IT> YOU FIX IT> SIMPLE.
December 23, 10:30 PM

ZIPPIT! says:
Quite in agreement with SteepW. China wants our dollars to buy their junk and trinkits sold at WallMart and in the mean time, blame US for its successes. China has always been an enemy of the Us and will always. We lost our manufacturing base to China and now China is producing the same and causing the pollution. I have been in China and seen it all.
One small step, I try not to buy any chinese goods unless I can not find it made by another country. Watch out America, the tiger is awake.
December 23, 10:25 PM

Hafiz Elhag says:
After decades of topping the charts for carbon emissions and denying climate change, it is amazing to see how the Americans have turned into environmental activists willing to blame anyone (but themselves) for the problem that we have with global warming! Sudan is the appointed leader of the G77 group - it is its duty not to represent the Chinese only, but also the Indians, South Americans, and Africans! Your eyewitness is not honest Westerners! Why don't you ask him exactly why the Sudanese team objected to the deal thrown to them (and other developing countries) by the Danish Prime Minister?!!!
December 23, 8:23 PM

Alois Brunner says:
waaa the sky is falling, meanwhile Bernie madoff and his cronies in the federal reserve are robbing our economy blind. wake up!
December 23, 7:01 PM

Alois Brunner says:
obama does not need any help to humiliate himself all he has to do is open his mouth without a teleprompter in front of his face.
December 23, 7:00 PM

FBowman says:
Thank you China.
December 23, 5:01 PM

SteepW says:
In response to Western Imperials Shutup,

So instead you are in favor of penalizing America's success of the past 50 yrs? Isn't this the same successful model that China and India is adopting that drove their economic growth? What was holding China back the last 50 years which prevented their economy to enjoy prosperity and "pollute" the last 60 yrs. Oh that's right, a backwards economic model that discouraged personal property ownership and communistic government. They did not have the capability to develope like the US and now the US has to pay retributions for it's success? So in another 15 years when China is projected to have the largest economy (based on manufacturing and emitting greenhouse gases), is China required to pay for it's part to it's poorer neighbors (such as Vietnam) or Indonesia. Doubt it.
December 23, 4:41 PM

CO2 maker says:
Maybe China isn't stupid enough to believe that destroying the economies of the US and Europe is in their best interest. I suggest an equally effective way of eliminating CO2. Smother all those breathers who want to eliminate harmless gases at my expense. Western Imperialist Shutup: CO2 is too heavy to make it to the upper atmosphere. It is absorbed by the ocean and plants. I bet you work for one of those hockey-stick labs.
December 23, 4:13 PM

chindia says:
>No one else, perhaps with the exceptions of India and Saudi Arabia, wanted this to happen

China + India = 40% of the world population, clearly didn't want any deal. Enough said.
December 23, 3:48 PM

Test says:
Ask the American what did they bring to the table? 3 percent from 1990 level? Isn't this a joke ?
December 23, 3:21 PM

Western Imperialist Shutup says:
The truth is that it's Western Europe and USA which have pumped out MAJORITY of the CO2 currently in the upper atmosphere.

So it's incumbent upon the CULPRITS to clean up their act and redeem themselves.

China has nothing to do with this whole mess!!

China's emission on a per capita basis is way behind even Holland! Let alone the wasteful Americans who drive SUVs and live in huge-ass houses.

The supposedly unbiased journalists of the West are nothing but old colonial imperialist mouthpieces.
December 23, 2:59 PM

https://teakdoor.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=61775


Still plenty of anti-Colonial, anti Imperialist sentiment out there amongst the natives! It's your problem, fix it up. Fine maybe we'll just shore up our own climate control defences and arrangements then, and the rest of you can buy guns and floaties. You'll probably need them.

If the science is right, this may well be the largest Issue the world is facing by a long shot. Possibly the largest issue ever in human civilisation. But even people in Advanced countries can't agree on that- plus most of our citizens are apathetic anyway, more concerned about their job and mortgage, or the 'veiled threat' posed by having a 2-4% Moslem community living in our country, than the intangible of climate change. And the rest (majority) of the World just don't give a fcuk beyond feeding their families and blaming the western Imperialists. They're just happy to put their hands out for more, while their politicians milk the blame game.

Whilst not decrying international attempts at climate control, I can't help but feel that on a selfish cost/ benefit analysis, the best contingent return on investment would be civil planning and defence in the Developed world- in terms of managing potentially huge domestic population shifts, agricultural sector adjustments, and defending national or regional borders against an increasingly desperate, homeless and starving Third World. This is an unquestionably Dystopian outlook- just call it catastrophe Insurance, and pray it never happens if you have or plan on having kids.

But at the end of the day, the Developing and Undeveloped world is not our partner at all in managing climate control, and a governments first responsibility is to it's own people.

Nuff said....



http://www.kusi.com/home/78477082.html?video=pop&t=a