Thread: British and the Arabs.

Why dont you Americans start by throwing out the Saudis??

Originally Posted by StoreKeeper

Because that would mean alienating the British who have decades old backdoor deals set up with Saud family.
Read a book called "Britain and the Arabs: A Study of Fifty Years, 1908-1958".

Is it true that the reason why Americans love Saudis is Britain??

Does America really care about Britain's interests or care at all??

O what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!

Sir Walter Scott

I'm starting to develop the opinion that the US is quite possibly in the ME in large part to defend British and French interests. They are the ones who were most influential in the ME during the period of 1908-1958. Of course they were often at odds with the Soviets but for the most part the French and British are responsible shaped the present form of the ME.

Of course we care about British interests in the ME. It's starting to hit me that the International policies of the US are very much like British policies prior to the fall of the British Empire. The foreign policies of the UK and AUS and even Japan are very much intertwined with the US.

The more I read about the history of the ME and up to curent events the more I believe there are countries that are very happy that the US invaded Iraq even though they publicly won't admit it. I'm especially pointing a finger at the French.

The British were heavily invested in the ME long before the US and they're heavily invested in there now. I'd almost bet they still have a stronger economical interest in the area than compared to US investment in the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhz
The british and the arabs now that calls for a new thread.



It used to be that the British prided themselves on thinking it was their duty to intervene in countries where there existed a corrupt or tyrannical government and believed it was their duty to intervene to keep people from being oppressed by their own rulers (Iraq) ... I think the majority of people in England still believe that way and that's why they support the US in the Iraq.

If the British posters would spend a few minutes thinking about it ... my reasons for supporting the war in Iraq are ironically enough very British like.

Originally Posted by StoreKeeper

I think the majority of people in England still believe that way and that's why they support the US in the Iraq.

If the British posters would spend a few minutes thinking about it ... my reasons for supporting the war in Iraq are ironically enough very British like.

Now there are people in Afghanistan who believe Bush is the king of the United States.There are people who believe that the bomiyan statues would wake up one day and eat whole Afghanistan.There are people who believe that eating a dieing man's heart will give them super natural powers.............And there are people who believe America is protecting French and British investments in ME.

The only difference between you and the people of Afghanistan as far as I can see is that you can speak English and they cant.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

I think the majority of people in England still believe that way and that's why they support the US in the Iraq.

SK,

I haven't seen recent poll numbers, but the Iraq conflict is not very popular in the UK.

This isn't scientific of course, but I hear a lot of anti-american comment from British mates and acquaintences, and strangers.

I also hear a lot of anti-US sentiment from Aussies, Irish, and a lot of others.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

I think the majority of people in England still believe that way and that's why they support the US in the Iraq.

SK,

I haven't seen recent poll numbers, but the Iraq conflict is not very popular in the UK.

This isn't scientific of course, but I hear a lot of anti-american comment from British mates and acquaintences, and strangers.

I also hear a lot of anti-US sentiment from Aussies, Irish, and a lot of others.

That's absolutely true. The Brits are now VERY unhappy with the Iraq debacle and most people want it to end.

It WILL be the downfall of Blair in the end, and I think Bush too. It may take a while after they've gone, but the whole sorry tale will unfold eventually and they'll be seen for what they are.

"Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live"

author: John Milton

"As the quotation at the beginning of this chapter suggests, the English seem always to have believed themselves entitled to read moral lectures to other races. It is perhaps a little ironical that the British should now smart under the moral admonitions of the Americans, when they themselves in the past so frequently infuriated others in the same manner."

author: Glubb Pasha

^
Totally irrelevant i think to drag up historical shite and use it to claim hypocrisy.
i still hate the English for stealing my country 900 years before i was born, but I'm not a serious journalist.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

"Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live"

author: John Milton

It is our burden.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

"As the quotation at the beginning of this chapter suggests, the English seem always to have believed themselves entitled to read moral lectures to other races. It is perhaps a little ironical that the British should now smart under the moral admonitions of the Americans, when they themselves in the past so frequently infuriated others in the same manner."

author: Glubb Pasha

A crock of shit.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^
Totally irrelevant i think to drag up historical shite and use it to claim hypocrisy.
i still hate the English for stealing my country 900 years before i was born, but I'm not a serious journalist.

And I thought the Irish had long memories! Tell you what, nip down to the coast and burn down a few English-owned holiday homes - you'll feel a lot better for it!

Originally Posted by Granny Smith

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

I think the majority of people in England still believe that way and that's why they support the US in the Iraq.

SK,

I haven't seen recent poll numbers, but the Iraq conflict is not very popular in the UK.

This isn't scientific of course, but I hear a lot of anti-american comment from British mates and acquaintences, and strangers.

I also hear a lot of anti-US sentiment from Aussies, Irish, and a lot of others.

That's absolutely true. The Brits are now VERY unhappy with the Iraq debacle and most people want it to end.

It WILL be the downfall of Blair in the end, and I think Bush too. It may take a while after they've gone, but the whole sorry tale will unfold eventually and they'll be seen for what they are.

I beg to differ, GS. Yes, I'm unhappy with what's happening in Iraq, but what do you want the US to do? Leave and let it all fall apart in a Shiite / Sunni civil war?

Or try to stop it?

Maybe the "quiet majority" of Brits should speak up more and not be afraid of speaking out against the media-inspired US-bashers.

Originally Posted by RDN

I beg to differ, GS. Yes, I'm unhappy with what's happening in Iraq, but what do you want the US to do? Leave and let it all fall apart in a Shiite / Sunni civil war?

Or try to stop it?

Maybe the "quiet majority" of Brits should speak up more and not be afraid of speaking out against the media-inspired US-bashers.

Perhaps the British went in with good intentions, helping the people, getting rid of a nasty dictator etc. Now however it's obvious that the Iraqi's don't want us in their country. Trying to force democracy on people who've never known it doesn't work. Best thing is to leave them alone to sort it out.

Originally Posted by RandomChances

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Totally irrelevant i think to drag up historical shite and use it to claim hypocrisy.
i still hate the English for stealing my country 900 years before i was born, but I'm not a serious journalist.

I beg to disagree mate, you hatered for the english probaly stems from much later than that. To the time when people lived in company houses, bought food from company shops, worked in the company mine, their kids went to company school where if caught using the welsh language were beaten.....yup guess who owned the "company" the english....was'nt that long ago either certianaly in my granparents generation

So, were these companies a good thing or a bad thing?

A good thing for the owners, I'd say, got the labor as well as consumer markets nicely under control. Preventing the provincial plebs from speaking their own language as well must have been quite a satisfying feat of domination.

Or did the English bring civilisation, education and opportunities to the locals?

Originally Posted by stroller

A good thing for the owners, I'd say, got the labor as well as consumer markets nicely under control. Preventing the provincial plebs from speaking their own language as well must have been quite a satisfying feat of domination.

Or did the English bring civilisation, education and opportunities to the locals?

Ah! NOW we're talking! (English, I hope, not that funny, spitty, throaty, dead language ). So how come all these mines were English owned? I suppose we stole the land 900 years ago. Still, isn't that what people did 900 years ago?

I wonder who pissed off the English 900 years ago? Maybe I can find someone to hate for the rest of my life, teach my children to hate them and tell everyone on the internet why I hate them.

Nope, can't think of anyone. Sorry.

Originally Posted by RDN

I beg to differ, GS. Yes, I'm unhappy with what's happening in Iraq, but what do you want the US to do? Leave and let it all fall apart in a Shiite / Sunni civil war?

Or try to stop it?

Maybe the "quiet majority" of Brits should speak up more and not be afraid of speaking out against the media-inspired US-bashers.

How do we stop it? And, why should we have gone there in the first place, thus, leading to this point where the place is in worse shape than before?

Do we keep pumping money and more soldiers into a bottomless pit?

It's time to get out.

So we keep on then following the same failed philosophy?

What gives the West the right to save non-Westerners 'from themselves?' Do they have the same right to look in the mirror and say 'those infidel Westerners, we should bring our civilization to them regardless of cost?' Would you be happy if the Chinese suddenly thought it fashionable to invade England and station several hundred thousand troops there because your idea of civilization wasn't the same as theirs?

It's going to be a bloodbath whether we stay or go. The fact is that we are not wanted there from the start, so, what makes anyone think that BY STAYING suddenly everyone will decide to sit around campfires roasting marshmellows?

Our forces weren't welcome there, they aren't welcome today, and, likely won't be tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year.

Sooner or later we'll get this uncivilized mentality out of our thick skulls that the rest of the world doesn't need or want our 'civilization.'

Back on the English topic.

We always have our detractors and most of us are used to it. Jealousy is a natural feeling.

At the end of the day, we were stronger than whoever we conquered, and every country benefitted from our influence. Get over it.

Originally Posted by surasak

So we keep on then following the same failed philosophy?

What gives the West the right to save non-Westerners 'from themselves?'

Just a normal human reaction to try to save lives.

Originally Posted by surasak

Do they have the same right to look in the mirror and say 'those infidel Westerners, we should bring our civilization to them regardless of cost?'

I think some people would say that is exactly what is happening regarding the Muslim faith.

Originally Posted by surasak

Would you be happy if the Chinese suddenly thought it fashionable to invade England and station several hundred thousand troops there because your idea of civilization wasn't the same as theirs?

But we're not trying to kill each other - no English Christian suicide bombers.

Originally Posted by surasak

It's going to be a bloodbath whether we stay or go.

Yes, but we believe there will be fewer deaths if we stay.

Originally Posted by surasak

The fact is that we are not wanted there from the start, so, what makes anyone think that BY STAYING suddenly everyone will decide to sit around campfires roasting marshmellows?

Of course we don't think that.

Originally Posted by surasak

Our forces weren't welcome there, they aren't welcome today, and, likely won't be tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year.

Sooner or later we'll get this uncivilized mentality out of our thick skulls that the rest of the world doesn't need or want our 'civilization.'

Don't you mean "we'll get this civilized mentality out of our thick skulls"? But sometimes you have to save people despite themselves.

I think it would not be very easy just to walk away, let the whole ME implode, burn up, whatever, and shrug our shoulders and say "Not our business".

Like the majority of Brits, i'm not happy about our involvement in Iraq, but we've started the situation that currently exists there and we have a moral obligation to finish it. You can't just go into countries by military force and lead them to the brink of civil war, and then walk out and say 'none of our business we don't like this anymore'.

It is going to cost a lot of money and many more lives but we have no other choice but to see this through to the end. If we leave this situation as it currently stands i wouldn't blame those members of the international community who still give us the benefit of the doubt from shunning us, it would be an absolute disgrace.

It's hard to believe that people are so apathetic about who governs them in Britain that the perpetrators of this mess are still in power. In years gone by, the shame of what has happened with the Iraq debacle would have toppled previous governments. We used to have standards. We now have a prime minister who can lie to his country to suit his own ends with impunity and still reside in Downing Street, and look at the results. Shame on us.