Thread: War !!!

Yes, the hub of lots of our problems because many of his actions are done to pander to the religious right of the Republican Party...who, unfortnuately, are the kind of people who will stay home rather than vote if their candidate doesn't support most of their agenda (witness the veto on stem cell research last week).

The war in Iraq is costing many people their lives, and, for what good? Nothing. A total waste and based on questionable reasons to begin with. The situation in the Middle East right now is largely due to America. An America that gives Israel the ability to cause such havoc. An America with a sorry-ass energy policy that lets manufacturers slide when it comes to better fuel efficiency.

You know, it would be a hell of alot cheaper to mandate better fuel economy than spend trillions on supporting Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and the war in Iraq. It would save money and make the environment cleaner. But it doesn't make anyone money, it merely saves money. For some reason that's not part of the psyche here.

Originally Posted by friscofrankie

You know there is a theory; (Much like your touted gasoline consumption causes "global warming") that "global warming" is a natural occuring event, there is another school of thought on the "hole in the Ozone" as well. Seems we only found it as soon as the technology was available to do so.

This "hole" would appear to have been around a for a good while, the South pacific has always had a more intense sun and higher temperatures that the rest of the planet. Discussions of the "South pacific Sun" have been heard as long as folks been traveling there.

To be fair I've always been a defender of the theory that all the change we see is merely due to better instruments, natural cycles, etc.

But, I've gotten tired of that line. What if we're wrong? Does it really hurt if we take the road of caution instead of just polluting like there's no tomorrow? Are the more persistent high pressure systems in the summer over much of the USA merely natural cycles or signs of weather patterns changing? Is the upwelling of the California current due to ocean warming part of a natural cycle? If the California current dies it will be just as bad as the Gulf Stream dying because California's, Oregon's, and Washington's cooler climate is the result of a large current coming from Alaska and moving towards Baha.

I think the situation in the Middle East ties into them all.

Then again, if we weren't burning oil then we'd likely be burning coal. At least oil is cleaner to some degree, though, it's really been hard to go outside and breathe the past few days due to all the automobile pollution getting trapped in the heat.

I think if we mandate sale of vehicles that got minimum of 30-35MPG or better that we could, in the interest of national security, ignore the Middle East all together.

At least we ought to have a policy that doesn't rely on Biblical predictions. If we were a nation of Buddhists I be Israel wouldn't exist.

Would we be fighting if it weren't for oil? How would the Arabs get the money to buy arms were it not for the oil? Overconsumption drives the price of oil up which helps those who buy arms and those who sell them.

got to agree with surasak. His explanation makes a lot of sense and I think oil is the main problem in all this. However if it wasn't for oil, I am sure we would find something else to wrap ourselves into a string of other problems.

Well, consider this: the fact that the oil is there cannot be changed. So, the Arabs have a useful resource. We purchase the oil, that leaves an account deficit in the Arabs' favor. So, how to fix this? Create a conflict so that the Arabs have a reason to defend themselves and purchase enough arms to balance the trade. If the oil price goes up then the balance becomes in the favor of the Arabs. So, what to do? Make sure they want to purchase more arms by allowing some country to stir up trouble. This is why we don't worry about energy efficiency because lower prices of oil mean that the Arabs won't have as much money to buy arms. Look at Japan. Japan is very energy efficient as national policy. There's no excuse for the USA not to be except that it won't line certain people's pockets if we do. And that is why people hate us. It's all about money.

It's clever, and, mix in a Born Again Christian President (the BACs are the ones who support Israel the most due to the prediction of the second coming of Christ contingent on return of the Jews to their homeland) and you have a pefect recipe for disaster.

Originally Posted by surasak

to the prediction of the second coming of Christ

Isn't he running a bit late, or is GWB the Messiah?

This conflict has been going on for quiet a while. The Jews have been persecuted since the days of pharaoh. I don't think the issues are about religion as much as they are about ethnicity. The religion angle is just a way to add fuel to the fire via fundamentalism.

The Arabs have always exploited their own and the Palestinians are the prime example. The other Arab nations treat them no better than the Israelis. Also, don't forget that the 2000 years of turn the other cheek policy that the Jews employed failed miserably in Europe during WWII. With that history still fresh in their mind it is no wonder that they feel every attack is an attack on their very existence.

Not only this but there are many other ethnic groups in the region, Iranians are not Arab for the most part, Lebanon has many ethnic and religious groups and don't forget minor groups like the Kurds.

I don't think the Americans really favour the instability in the region because they know that one an area is more stable they have a better chance of culturally assimilating it. I think the reason why the American governments keep destabilizing the region is because they are arrogant and inept at implementing their policies. They would much rather assimilate the region under their economic control rather than their military control.

Trying to oversimplify this conflict is a mistake.

Originally Posted by Sanuk Canuk

They would much rather assimilate the region under their economic control rather than their military control.

Hearts & Minds?

Israel incinerates 15 children in a van during an airstrike.

Beautiful People & Picture:

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Hearts & Minds?

More like McDonalds, Starbucks, CNN, iTunes and big screen TV's.

I'm not saying arms dealers aren't profiting from the present state of things but the vast majority of US businesses prefer a stable enviornment so they can count on reliable procurement of resources at predictable prices so they can plan the allocation of their resources.

US exports 2004: $1.146 trillion (add US business revenues from overseas operations and compare it with arms sales and FMF listed below)

Foreign Military Financing: Congress appropriates grants to finance foreign nations’ purchases of American-made weapons, services and training. Between 1950 and 2005, the U.S. government has provided over $121 billion in FMF to militaries around the world.

Between 1992 and 2003, the United States sold $177.5 billion in arms to foreign nations

Report: U.S. WEAPONS AT WAR 2005


World GDP 2005: 58 trillion

World arms sales 2005: 1.118 trillion

But without instability there then the government can't justify putting United States forces in the area.

It's all part of a carefully calculated plot to get American troops in a strategic position to control the flow of Middle East oil (even though America gets a minority % of oil from the ME the ME still has large reserves of easy to get oil).

Does anyone for a moment think we'd support Israel were it not for all the oil there?

We all know the U.S. just doesnt' care about suffering people. That was a poor excuse used to invade Iraq. The premise of WMD was a weak one at best. It's a strategic invasion that no country could stop, sort of like a person who would rob a bank knowing that they can get away with it because there aren't any police around. I bet 20 years from now when China's military reaches parity with the U.S. another Iraq couldn't happen.

We are still a net importer (witness the trade deficit) and selling arms is a way of trying to balance that out. The only way to sell arms is create a need, and, you create a need by creating instability.

Yeah, that's the ticket. The US told Iran to arm Hezbollah with weapons to fire on Israel. The US and UK have been supporting Israel long before oil was a major concern in the world.

Who does more to help suffering people in the world than the US ?

The U.S. first got directly into the ME when it hopped into bed with the Saudis in the 1930s.

If there was any support for a nation-state of Israel before UN Resolution 181 then it was mostly the Jewish community in America. Other symbolic support probably started in the 1920s when the immigrants started to increase in Palestine. (I'll have to go back and dig around.)

The U.S. has also caused tremendous amounts of suffering as well.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Yeah, that's the ticket. The US told Iran to arm Hezbollah with weapons to fire on Israel.

Iran-Contra anyone?

That's another good one ... let's blame the whole mess on the Marine Corps and LTCOL Oliver North.

Oliver North was a traitor. Why he wasn't taken care of, is a mystery. He must have good files with him to be not in jail.

Disobey the law, sell arms to your enemy, and run for Senate....the American Way™

Originally Posted by surasak

The U.S. has also caused tremendous amounts of suffering as well.

Yeah, well, we do it for noble purposes.
Like Viet Nam! "Had to destroy that Vil in order to save it"
Get the drift?

^
Vietnam is more suited as an example of the useless suffering the arrogant US foreign policies have brought about.

The Balkans are a better example for "noble purposes".

A cycle of nonsense: "For reasons unknown, some people seem to regard verbal equivalence as moral equivalence -- and the latter as some kind of badge of broadmindedness, if not intellectual superiority. Therefore, when Palestinian terrorists ("militants" in politically correct Newspeak) attack Israel and then Israel responds with military force, that is just another "cycle of violence" in the Middle East to some people. The "cycle" notion suggests that each side is just responding to what the other side does. But just what had Israel done to set off these latest terrorist acts? It voluntarily pulled out of Gaza, after evacuating its own settlers, and left the land to the Palestinian authorities. Terrorists then used the newly acquired land to launch rockets into Israel and then seized an Israeli soldier. Other terrorists in Lebanon followed suit. The great mantra of the past, "trading land for peace," is now thoroughly discredited, or should be. But facts mean nothing to people who are determined to find equivalence, whether today in the Middle East or yesterday in the Cold War."

Townhall.com::A 'cycle' on nonsense::By Thomas Sowell