Bringing back the draft

**Marmite the Dog** · 13-07-2006, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

Btw, since I am in direct disagreement with Eliminator in this thread, I won't use my mod status to "censor" his comment, but his insults are really off the mark here.

I think we all understand when someone has to resort to insults because they don't have the intelligence to argue or state their point coherently.

**Storekeeper** · 13-07-2006, 10:46 AM

I don't have a problem with you being a conscientious objector. That is your right.

And again ... I say you're wrong. You DO NOT give up your right to ethics, morals or deciding your own course of action period. That is a condenscending and inapprorpriate, uneducated viewpoint ...

People decide to join the military and then change their mind all the time based on those concepts. People just decide what they are, and what they aren't willing to do ... that's life ... period.

It's no big deal really stroller ... I might think COs are basically pussies who hide behind this convenient but legal excuse, but I don't look down my nose at them for it.

You didn't think this conscientious objector thing up all by yourself. You're the product of your environment the same as I am. You're not special and neither am I.

**stroller** · 13-07-2006, 11:01 AM

I am rather proud of it, actually. I had thought about it beforehand and didn't need to join to find out I disapprove.

Not a pussy - the German army wasn't involved in any 'real' action, it took more guts to stand trial and leave the country for 15 years than it would have to agree to 'go through the mill' for 15 months.

**Storekeeper** · 13-07-2006, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

it took more guts to stand trial and leave the country for 15 years than it would have to agree to 'go through the mill' for 15 months.

IMHO you're wrong. If you did it on principle then cool. Stand by that arguement. Quit trying to make it something it isn't.

**Lady Hawk** · 13-07-2006, 02:05 PM

I could never go into the forces,or let my kids do Ns,i do not belive in any goverment,or any form of what i think of as mind control.
I live mostley within the law,but am by nature anarchistic.
Each to there own we all live only once,and i intend to live it.

**Eliminator** · 13-07-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

I am sure there are other dimensions to the army, and I wouldn't paint all military personel with the same brush.

My comment : It does seem (at least to me) that you do paint all military with the same brush with allyour comments of what is happenning in this and any other war that has happened before.

But I do know what the essence of a military is about - it's not about a humanitarian mission, but basically you give up your right to decide the course of your own action according to your conscience to a command structure.

MY Comment: Totally wrong in your thinking here as I never and I don't think anyone I served with thought this way. If anyone goes into war, then they have to think that they are doing what is right for their country. In your way of thinking, then the rest of the world should have let Hitler take over the world.

I was tried as a conscienscious objector, this requires better preparation than "anecdotal evidence".

What war was Germany with in the 70's? So what would serving your country have involved you with that you would object to?

Btw, since I am in direct disagreement with Eliminator in this thread, I won't use my mod status to "censor" his comment, but his insults are really off the mark here.

My Comments : By my statements before is what any person ( that served in the service) would have said of ANYONE that ran away to hide behind the "conscienscious objector" status that you and so many others seem to cling to. This also pertains to all the guys that had the (family) connections to say my kid is in school and can't serve.

You are all just clutching at straws to defend your attitude of NON service. Go ahead and pull you MOD status and pull my comments if it makes you feel any better, it damn sure doesn't change my attitude or my thinking.

I answered on each thing to stroller's comments above as : "MY comments"

**Marmite the Dog** · 13-07-2006, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

You are all just clutching at straws to defend your attitude of NON service.

I thought most of us said that it would be a good idea.

**Eliminator** · 13-07-2006, 10:09 PM

MtD, I meant "ALL" that said no to NON service and any guy that hid from it, whatever excuse they wanted to use.

**man with no head** · 13-07-2006, 10:18 PM

I never served (though I qualified for entry to the USAF and Naval Academies...had all the ducks in a row, but, at the last moment I decided to back out). For me it was an issue of having to live my life the way someone else wanted me to. I really hadn't considered the service academies and it was mostly pressure from my parents which got me to apply and go through all the tests and exams for appointment. But I decided that if I wasn't going to enter for myself then I shouldn't go. I am fiercely independent in nature and there's no way I could have survived in an organization where someone would always tell me what to do, what time I would have to wake up, what city I would live in, etc. I'm hardly a lazy person, I simply prefer being in control of my life versus someone else having that power.

**stroller** · 13-07-2006, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

MY Comment: Totally wrong in your thinking here as I never and I don't think anyone I served with thought this way. If anyone goes into war, then they have to think that they are doing what is right for their country. In your way of thinking, then the rest of the world should have let Hitler take over the world.

My conscience is not determined by what you or others who served think. The interests of "my" country don't rank very high in my list of priorities, I feel more obliged to humanist and pacifist values. I said in another thread, that I would probably have actively supported an assassination of Hitler - decided by my own judgement, not an outside authority.

What war was Germany with in the 70's? So what would serving your country have involved you with that you would object to?

I explained this already.

My Comments : By my statements before is what any person ( that served in the service) would have said of ANYONE that ran away to hide behind the "conscienscious objector" status that you and so many others seem to cling to.

In your opinion - which is presumptuous and misguided.
I haven't noticed anyone else flinging insults.

This also pertains to all the guys that had the (family) connections to say my kid is in school and can't serve.

That's a different issue.

Thanks for not being insulting this time.

**Storekeeper** · 14-07-2006, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by surasak

I never served (though I qualified for entry to the USAF and Naval Academies...had all the ducks in a row, but, at the last moment I decided to back out). For me it was an issue of having to live my life the way someone else wanted me to. I really hadn't considered the service academies and it was mostly pressure from my parents which got me to apply and go through all the tests and exams for appointment. But I decided that if I wasn't going to enter for myself then I shouldn't go. I am fiercely independent in nature and there's no way I could have survived in an organization where someone would always tell me what to do, what time I would have to wake up, what city I would live in, etc. I'm hardly a lazy person, I simply prefer being in control of my life versus someone else having that power.

Since you're an entrepreneur then I think you did the right thing. But most people who have this misguided opinion live their lives exactly the same way as the military people do ... the only difference being one party doesn't wear a uniform. Anybody who gets their money from somebody else responds to the clock ... when you have to work and when you can leave. Whatever company you work for you adapt to that climate or you're gone ... period. If a civilian company wants an employee to travel periodically then that person will either travel ... or most likely he'll be gone or not advance in the company. Right or wrong?

I think the reason people have this similar frame of reference about the military is that western society is so individualistic (ironically so many western expats want to live in Asian countries now ain't it?) So yes, the military stresses the group needs over the individual needs. But how exactly it is that you think the military controls people's creative preferences ? Seems to me it's a double edge sword ... on one hand many want to talk down about the military ... and on the other hand many want to talk about how the military is out of control when an incident hits the media. Civilians want to have it both ways with their opinion about the military.

Surasak: In your case you qualified for the naval academy ... do you think you're a better person than those who accepted their appointments to the academy and decided to either serve their initial hitch or make it a career ? Hopefully you don't ... because you're not. The military overall ingrains, "Honor, courage, commitment" ... they produce responsible citizens. That's it. If you have to find some way to twist that into looking down your nose at the military then that's your or the others problems.

Many who are posting about this come across like they are somehow special. What is it that makes you special other than this ambiguous concept that you are somehow more able to "think and act freely" ? How is that ? I only remember one of you to date identifying yourself as an entrepreneur (Maybe two ... seems one of the Aussies told me that a while back) so what is it that makes you so indepedent from "The Man" ?

Both enlisted and officers in the military come from all walks of life. From Harvard educated men ... to community college ... to high school drop outs. What field are you in and what are the odds your company would hire a high school drop out who would go on to have a PhD ?

I invite you drop your stereotypes at least for those who only serve one or two tours. If it really makes you feel good then continue with your condenscending view point about the career guys like me ... what freedoms do you have that I don't have as a 27+ year career man ? I think we'll find that they are few.

**endure** · 14-07-2006, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

If you've never been in the military , then you know fuckall about it and I don't give a rat's ass if you had brothers or fathers or sisters or mothers in the military telling you bedtime stories, YOU still don't know shit.

Moreover, we don't want to. Learning how to kill people is not a skill worth having, no matter how how much it rocks your world.

**Eliminator** · 14-07-2006, 08:36 AM

stroller, I wonder how long you or any other person would hold on to these "humanist and pacifist values" if your or their family were killed by muslim fundementalist or by anyone else. Would you still try to "understand" these nutters and hold on to your PC thinking? Let's hope that you never have to make this decision.

**Storekeeper** · 14-07-2006, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

stroller, I wonder how long you or any other person would hold on to these "humanist and pacifist values" if your or their family were killed by muslim fundementalist or by anyone else. Would you still try to "understand" these nutters and hold on to your PC thinking? Let's hope that you never have to make this decision.

Unfortunately you won't get any help from stroller with a hypothetical concept or question.

If our friends like stroller, dd, peaceblondie found themselves in a hostage situation ... no matter the reason ... it wouldn't be long before they'd be whinging like children praying somebody would send their military to rescue them.

**Marmite the Dog** · 14-07-2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

If our friends like stroller, dd, peaceblondie found themselves in a hostage situation ... no matter the reason ... it wouldn't be long before they'd be whinging like children praying somebody would send their military to rescue them.

That is probably true, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be a military man.

**stroller** · 14-07-2006, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Since you're an entrepreneur then I think you did the right thing. But most people who have this misguided opinion live their lives exactly the same way as the military people do ... the only difference being one party doesn't wear a uniform. Anybody who gets their money from somebody else responds to the clock ... when you have to work and when you can leave.

That's a fair point. But this is just one of the reasons stated for not wanting to do service. I am also a self-employed guy, btw. I had 'regular' work for a combined 5 years in my life, and was unhappy during these periods

I just stand by my decision against NS, that doesn't make me "special", but it's unusual and often attracts more attacks than I got here.
How come people put forward imaginary scenarios to "test" and doubt my integrity? Do I still owe others explainations why I am against war and hate?
Is this such an unusual concept?

**Storekeeper** · 14-07-2006, 11:07 AM

What are you talking about now stroller ? Didn't you read I said I'm against NS as well ? Gawd damn man you're thick.

**stroller** · 14-07-2006, 11:30 AM

This topic is about the draft, popeye. You're not the only one voiced their opinion.

**Eliminator** · 14-07-2006, 11:56 AM

Bring back the draft and it won't hurt any of them. Even if they don't get the so called "love" that all the pc people think you must have it does teach teamwork also. It will teach them respect and how to follow orders and also give them some great job training. All these dole bludgers and chav freaks could stand a bit of that for once in their lives. Most of the kids today figure they are owed their lot in life and should be given everything. Screw em, let em work for it.

Not all people can be fortunate enough to have the choice of working for themselves and will have to follow orders and work for someone else. If the little momma's boys didn't learn respect and hard work growing up at home, then the service is a good place to get that discipline and so much more.

**Storekeeper** · 14-07-2006, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

This topic is about the draft, popeye. You're not the only one voiced their opinion.

Where is Marmite to tell we argue even when we agree

**Marmite the Dog** · 14-07-2006, 02:17 PM

OK, if we're talking about the draft for active service then 'no' as it is against one's basic human right to force them to go to war.

But, if we're talking about National Service with an 'active service clause' then I think that it would do more good than harm.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Where is Marmite to tell we argue even when we agree

I didn't realise that you were agreeing.

**benbaaa** · 14-07-2006, 02:37 PM

I think it's a great idea. Round up all the aggressive thugs that would otherwise be mugging people at knifepoint outside the tube station and teach them how to kill people properly.

**stroller** · 14-07-2006, 04:25 PM

OK, if we're talking about the draft for active service then 'no' as it is against one's basic human right to force them to go to war.

But, if we're talking about National Service with an 'active service clause' then I think that it would do more good than harm.

What else would the point be of training people?
No country trains soldiers while at the same time excluding them from active duty.

The nature of a draft=conscription is to train and prepare people to join active service, now or whenever required - that is the duty and obligation of those drafted.

If you don't agree with going to war, you should register your objections before being sworn in, which is part of the initial ceremony.

Should you decide you don't actually want to partake in any 'real' action, you may find yourself having to answer according to military law.

**man with no head** · 14-07-2006, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Surasak: In your case you qualified for the naval academy ... do you think you're a better person than those who accepted their appointments to the academy and decided to either serve their initial hitch or make it a career ? Hopefully you don't ... because you're not. The military overall ingrains, "Honor, courage, commitment" ... they produce responsible citizens. That's it. If you have to find some way to twist that into looking down your nose at the military then that's your or the others problems.

I don't look down at anyone who chose to continue to the academies and it certainly wasn't from a position of arrogance, either. I don't think I'm better than them and I don't think they are better than me, either. It simply wasn't something that interested me, that's all. There's no point taking a path in life if its not for yourself. If you end up doing it for someone else then it's going to lead to resentment.

You know, being in the military is not the only path in life to "Honor, courage, commitment." Others follow the same path: firemen, police officers, doctors, teachers, big brothers/sisters, etc. There are other ways to serve one's country without learning to fire a gun. Not everyone has the physical skill or the mental skills needed to train or follow orders. That doesn't make them any less of a person.

At the end of the day I think people who choose paths of national service in non-military ways will be as effective at bringing about change in people's lives as will those who go in and give them that freedom. We all can't be soldiers (though I do love weapons and possess quite a few, I know how to kill people, and, if push comes to shove I can fabricate weapons from whatever's on hand...peolpe used to call me MacGuyver when I was younger

), and, we all can't be noncombatants either. There's a job for everyone and forcing a person to do a job against their will isn't going to make them a better person for it.

**Marmite the Dog** · 14-07-2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

What else would the point be of training people? No country trains soldiers while at the same time excluding them from active duty.

To make them better citizens in the majority of cases.

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