Thread: Right-wing domestic terrorists

^ Not unless the govt bans them outright. Might be good to start with gangs and thugs.

the great thing about those American terrorists is they aren't too smart, unlike the other terrorists, so they get caught quite easily

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Not unless the govt bans them outright. Might be good to start with gangs and thugs.

This can't happen.

State issue, and then Constitutional issue.

It could take decades if not longer for such a thing to happen.

Why does everybody think that if you make guns illegal and put stricter controls on them fewer people will die of violent crime? I just don't see it stopping the violent crime. May as well make knives, crowbars, rope, spoons... chairs... sharpened sticks and rocks illegal as well. Guns potentially even out the playing field. A woman with a gun and a man with a gun are more evenly matched than a man with a knife and a woman with a knife....

Someone breaks into your house and your kids are asleep... happy day, yer best best friend Mossberg sleeps under your bed and won't have to wait for the police to show up.
Of course, if you are a hick or a redneck and everybody keeps a shotgun under their bed and brings it with'em to the wedding when their kids get hitched... ain't nobody gonna be breakin into your house is there? To me, this makes perfect sense. Does everybody need a browning automatic rifle on a tripod on the front porch? Nor do they need one of them wizzy go fast automatic pistol things...
But wouldn't it be wicked cool if every certifiably sane person had a Springfield .45 concealed on their hip and a Benelli 12 gauge under their bed? I'd bet as a whole it would work wonders on our manners and patience to know that if ya loose your temper, yer done... if ya pissoff yer neighbor, yer done. If ya think yer gonna sneak up on yer neighbor's trailer and walk off with his TV... yer done. If yer over-sized over-hormoned neighbor thinks he's gonna have his way with yer daughter... yep... done. (Yeah, it works both ways... but I like it better that way

Originally Posted by theudonshawn

Someone breaks into your house and your kids are asleep... happy day, yer best best friend Mossberg sleeps under your bed and won't have to wait for the police to show up.

When you extrapolate that kind of logic, it's easy to see why the US spends so much on it's military and is so keen on bombing the shit out of other countries.

How very American.

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

In the US an inner city kid can buy a pistol for $20 dollars and the chance of getting caught for using it low.

and you get the 20 bucks number from where? I suspect you pulled that number from your bottom. I also suspect that you've never tried to buy a gun in the inner city, nor have you actually heard this number from a reliable source.

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

How very American.

how very illogical of you to assume that not relying on the government for personal protection would correlate with bombing other countries.... it seems that logic is elusive on all fronts.

I have a more useful statement: How very unconstitutional "pre-emptive strikes" and "pre-emptive warfare" and "nationbuilding" are. Logic would then dictate that those things are indeed un-American and that America's leadership needs to pay closer attention to the contstituion and the laws that that limit their ability to project power onto the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the paper barriers designed to stop American leaders from becoming megalomaniac world shapers is being ignored... How very un-american Barak Obama and George Bush and almost the whole lot of them really were.

You astutely miss my point... perhaps I should be more blunt... like a beating with a club rather than a long range sniper shot... Self reliance is what gun ownership is all about. Self reliance and family interconnectedness are American ideals. A man's house is his castle. A man knows what needs to be done, and does it. (Women too... but the saying uses a gender neutre "man") Those are the American ideals. Not the chest pounding of the politicians who think they are special, but the good, honest hardwork of those who never ask for anything from anybody and always pull their own load.

Gun ownership is about freedom from dependance on others (specifically the gov). That my friends is a big part of the American Way. Not freedom to live the way we want to live...

Have you heard about the "hot burglaries" in england (maybe I got the wording wrong) but essentially, to get past the door alarms, burglars are just knocking on the door and punching out whoever opens it. Mark Steyn was saying that couldn't happen in many parts of America cause if you knock on somebody's door in the middle of the night, you'll prolly find yerself at the business end of the barrel of some sort of firearm. Cause we don't need the government to look after us and our families. We do it ourselves thankyou very much. And REAL Americans should be filled with shame if they need to rely on somebody else to take care of them or their family. Calling the cops is one thing. Depending on them is something else entirely.

The statist supporters of all powerful centralized socialist or fascist government label all non-sheep Americans as terrorists or racists. It makes their statist goals more easily attainable. Make everybody reliant on the government.... that makes them easier to subjugate them.

^ I doubt many people over there report to the police.
I was totally safe when I lived in London. The Kuwaiti Embassy was across the road and a few doors down. Security everywhere. Very nice people. Helped me walk up the steps one night. (That was a great party.)

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by theudonshawn

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

In the US an inner city kid can buy a pistol for $20 dollars and the chance of getting caught for using it low.

and you get the 20 bucks number from where? I suspect you pulled that number from your bottom. I also suspect that you've never tried to buy a gun in the inner city, nor have you actually heard this number from a reliable source.

Sorry that's typo should have been $200 but yes the figure is speculative, there's no doubt though that guns are prevelant amongst inner city youths in the US, and the source of those guns is the legal gun trade.

Bulk gun sales tied to crimes
The Denver Post Online - News

Center for Gun Policy and Research, Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Pulic Health, 624 North Brodway, Room 593, 21205-1996 Baltimore, Maryland

Firearm mortality rates among males aged 15–24 years are eight times higher in
the United States than in other high-income countries.

1 In the United States, young
males also have the highest rates of homicide offending among age-gender subgroups,

2

and about three quarters of all homicides involving male offenders less
than 25 years of age are committed with firearms.3

There is some evidence that the higher rate of gun homicide among youths in

the United States is partly attributable to greater accessibility of guns.

Background Access to firearms among delinquent youths poses significant risks to community safety. The purpose of the study was to describe how a group of criminally involved youths obtained guns.

Methods Youths were randomly selected from a juvenile justice facility to participate in a semistructured, anonymous interview. Transcripts were coded and analyzed with the aid of textual analysis software.

Results Of the 45 participants, 30 had acquired at least 1 gun prior to their most recent incarceration, and 22 had acquired multiple guns. About half of the first gun acquisitions were gifts or finds. The first guns youths acquired were usually obtained from friends or family. The most recent acquisitions were often new, high-calbier guns, and they came from acquaintances or drug addicts. New guns often came from igh-volume traffickers. Gun acquisitions from strangers or through “straw purchases” were rare. Though few obrtained guns directly throug theft, some youths believed their supplier bad stolen guns. Youths rarely left their community to obtain a gun.

Conclusions Guns were readily available to this sample of criminally involved youths through their social networks. Efforts to curtail high-volume, illegal gun traffickers and to recover discarded guns from areas in which illicit drug sales take place could potentially reduce gun availability to high-risk youth.

SpringerLink - Journal Article

In 1990, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention surveyed a nationally representative sample of 9th- to 12th-grade students about the number of times they had carried a weapon such as a gun, knife, or club during the prior 30 days. One in 20 students indicated he or she had carried a firearm, usually a handgun. A number of additional surveys confirm an increased propensity among young people to carry guns.6 The increased availability of guns and access to guns by youth have had devastating consequences on schools and communities. In many schools, learning is no longer the top priority; survival concerns lead many students to avoid school entirely or carry weapons for protection. Educators must divert attention from academics to monitor and control student aggression. In neighborhoods, people are apprehensive about going outside their homes, and fights that once involved fists have become deadly exchanges.

Reduce Youth Involvement With Guns, Drugs, and Gangs

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

How very American.

how very illogical of you to assume that not relying on the government for personal protection would correlate with bombing other countries.... it seems that logic is elusive on all fronts.

I think it is logical progression from self determination through firpower to the US's attitude of hostility and use of firepower in dealing with what it sees as hostile nations.

I have a more useful statement: How very unconstitutional "pre-emptive strikes" and "pre-emptive warfare" and "nationbuilding" are. Logic would then dictate that those things are indeed un-American and that America's leadership needs to pay closer attention to the contstituion and the laws that that limit their ability to project power onto the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the paper barriers designed to stop American leaders from becoming megalomaniac world shapers is being ignored... How very un-american Barak Obama and George Bush and almost the whole lot of them really were.

To that I agree wholeheartedly.

You astutely miss my point... perhaps I should be more blunt... like a beating with a club rather than a long range sniper shot... Self reliance is what gun ownership is all about. Self reliance and family interconnectedness are American ideals. A man's house is his castle. A man knows what needs to be done, and does it. (Women too... but the saying uses a gender neutre "man") Those are the American ideals. Not the chest pounding of the politicians who think they are special, but the good, honest hardwork of those who never ask for anything from anybody and always pull their own load.

Gun ownership is about freedom from dependance on others (specifically the gov). That my friends is a big part of the American Way. Not freedom to live the way we want to live..

Yes I agree that it is the American way, but it is obviously a flawed logic when you look at the homicide rate due to the willingness to use firepower in the US to settle disputes. It would seem an impossible situation to defuse when the country is so dangerous because of the amount of availiable firearms that firearms are nessecary to protect yourself. A self fulfilling prophecy as it where.

Gun or knife?

So is Knife Crime in the UK "Up" or "Down"?

- well frankly given that politicians (sadly across all political parties) seldom offer a concise and straight answer to any question, it's hard to know.
...
Those dealing with the issues on the ground within the community have long been saying that the growing weapons culture and the easy willingness to use them is a symptom of deep rooted problems in our society. Poverty, lack of opportunity, the "must have now" culture (fuelled by the easy access to credit - even to those unable to afford it), the growing divide between the rich and poor, the break down of family values and discipline, are just some of the issues which probably have to be tackled if we are really going to solve the problem. Such a cultural change may take a generation or two to achieve, but unless we get started, things are likely to get a lot worse before they get better.
Knife Crime Facts / Knife Culture in the UK

Well that's totally off topic anyway, but we're talking about the prevalence of guns in the US.
To bring it back on topic though the point I'm making is that the US gun culture leads to dealing with disagreement through violence, which in turn can be extrapolated to the use of force used in US domestic or state terrorism.

A poll on facebook?

WASHINGTON—The U.S. Secret Service is investigating an online survey that asked whether people thought President Barack Obama should be assassinated, officials said Monday.

The poll, posted Saturday on Facebook, was taken off the popular social networking site quickly after company officials were alerted to its existence. But, like any threat against the president, Secret Service agents are taking no chances.

"We are aware of it and we will take the appropriate investigative steps," said Darrin Blackford, a Secret Service spokesman. "We take of these things seriously."

The poll asked respondents "Should Obama be killed?" The choices: No, Maybe, Yes, and Yes if he cuts my health care.

The question was not created by Facebook, but by an independent person using an add-on application that has been suspended from the site.

"The third-party application that enabled an individual user to create the offensive poll was brought to our attention this morning," said Barry Schnitt, Facebook's spokesman for policy.

Because the application was disabled, the responses to the nonscientific polls are not available.

"We're working with the U.S. Secret Service, but they'll need to provide any details of their investigation," Schnitt said.

Link: Secret Service probing Facebook poll on Obama - Boston.com

Originally Posted by S Landreth

WASHINGTON—The U.S. Secret Service is investigating an online survey that asked whether people thought President Barack Obama should be assassinated, officials said Monday.

Who could be that dumb? Was it a bad joke? Poor use of hyperbole if you ask me.

Or was it a left wing fabrication? It does actually help their cause.
Probobly not conspiracey, just a bad joke. But I know all my black liberal komrades will be on this one like flies on sh*t...

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

I think it is logical progression from self determination through firpower to the US's attitude of hostility and use of firepower in dealing with what it sees as hostile nations.

I think that's cause you see guns more as a means to dominate people. I see them as a more of an equalizer. I already said that they take away the size and strength advantage... I see them as a tool to prevent domination by those who are bigger and stronger or in the majority. All about worldviews. I'm a bit of an idealist. Suspect we should agree to disagree on that one.

And what if Germany was the biggest kid on the block? How would they use their power? or Japan? or France? or China? or Russia?

E="ItsRobsLife"]To that I agree wholeheartedly. [/QUOTE]

well, common ground. I suspect we both see those who attempt to dominate others throgh violence or threat of violence as less than useful. My favorite Azimov quote, "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent".

I would however add to that, confiscation of property under threat of incarceration is likewise unconstitutional and a form of violent robbery. Give me a percentage of all your money, or I will lock you in my basement and then take your money. Is that the government or the mob?

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

homicide rate due to the willingness to use firepower in the US to settle disputes.

#1: What would be the net decrease in violence? I suspect that gun control, or an outright ban would simply change the nature of violent crime in the US. Bigger, more determined thugs will have more power over smaller, more innocent folks. Domination of others through force will continue. The US has power projection/domination problems from the top down and the bottom up. I would argue that indoctrination by violent video games and TV contribute more to our violent culture than guns do.

#2: Net decrease in violence being much smaller than anticipated, I think that the benefits of guns in American society outweigh the price we pay for them.

^ See my thread on the Chicago honour student beaten to death (by fists and boards). Robski should love that. Not a gun in sight. Peaceful killing.

Werthmann at How To Take Back America: "If we had our guns, we would have fought a bloody battle. So, keep your guns, and buy more guns, and buy ammunition. [...] Take back America. Don’t let them take the country into Socialism. And I refer again, Hitler’s party was National Socialism. [...] And that’s what we are having here right now, which is bordering on Marxism."

Let's see who was a part of this hate fest:

Phyllis Schlafly, Eagle Forum
Janet Folger Porter, Faith2Action
Don Wildmon, American Family Association
Michael Farris, Home School Legal Defense Association
Mat Staver, Liberty Counsel
Rick Scarborough, Vision America
Don Feder, World Congress of Families
Joseph Farah, WorldNetDaily

That's not really the fringe of the conservative movement - it IS the conservative movement, and a good chunk of the religious right leadership to boot.

And GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee attended too. Imagine what the Rs would do if a top D presidential candidate attended a conference where things like this were said about George Bush, including comparing America to Nazi Germany. The Rs wouldn't do nothing, which seems to be the Democratic response plan - always.


Link: AMERICAblog News| A great nation deserves the truth: Huckabee attends rightwing conference that tells activists to get their guns ready for ‘Bloody Battle’ with Obama the NaziRead More......

^ Hate fest?

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Don’t let them take the country into Socialism. And I refer again, Hitler’s party was National Socialism. [...] And that’s what we are having here right now, which is bordering on Marxism

I'm not an American so I don't really understand where people who say things like this are coming from but have these guys actually ever read any books? What the fuck is Marxist about the American state? (Other than - obviously enough - fulfilling its role as "a committee for managing the common affairs of the bourgeoisie".) What kind of pig-ignorant fool takes this nonsense seriously?

Originally Posted by Dan

What kind of pig-ignorant fool takes this nonsense seriously?

I've been an American from day one. Eaten with them...slept with them...observed them at close range. As far as I can see it springs from the usual suspects--feelings of powerlessness, paranoia, anger. But the fact is I've never understood where this insanity comes from. The worst of it is, the one's that are like this wear it like a badge of honor.

Originally Posted by MrG

The worst of it is, the one's that are like this wear it like a badge of honor.

As can be seen by some posters here as well.

The US political sphere is quite right-of-centre at the best of times, even the democrats . . . and there are no 'real' Socialists to be seen anywhere as that would be anathema to the American Way, which is basically saying 'don't take away my toys that I went into hock for'.

It's an odd thing, but even educated adults swallow this 'Commie' thing hook, line and sinker

Originally Posted by panama hat

The US political sphere is quite right-of-centre at the best of times, even the democrats . . .

So true! Especially after Reagan.

I used to think that it's a characteristic that's not widely known, but lately I wonder. The left comes out in a lot of people when the time is right, but it doesn't seem to stay long. The greatest example in my mind is when Reagan convinced the middle class to vote against their own interests--unions, education, services.

In the end I think the news media has a lot to do with maintaining pretense of America being essentially centrist and reasonable no matter how egregiously wrong the offense. Not in any conspirational way, just self interest. It's been said before that people in thoroughly propogandized countries have the advantage of knowing they're being propogandized. American's don't.

Fox News,………

FOX poses its own danger - at some point, tell enough people on the fringe enough times that the angry black man is a communist hell-bent on repeating Nazi Germany, and someone not playing with a full deck is likely to eventually to respond with violence.

Axelrod: FOX isn't a real news organization

It's good to see the White House fighting back against the right-wing noise machine.

“The only argument that Anita was making is that they are not really a news organization, if you watch even its not even their commentators, but a lot of their news program. It’s really not news, it’s pushing a point of view and the bigger thing is that other news organizations like yours, ought not to treat them that way. And we’re not going to treat them that way, we’re going to appear on their shows and participate, but understanding that they represent a point of view.”

FOX poses its own danger - at some point, tell enough people on the fringe enough times that the angry black man is a communist hell-bent on repeating Nazi Germany, and someone not playing with a full deck is likely to eventually to respond with violence. But there's a great issue here. Telling the rest of the media not to follow FOX's example. FOX likes to be sensational. And it works, in terms of getting viewers. Glenn Beck is a disturbed extremist, but to the core of what's left of the GOP, he is them. The rest of the media may learn the lesson that extremism sells. And if they do, our country will be in serious trouble. The Obama administration took a step this week towards saving the country from people who want to win at all costs, or at least bring the rest of us down with them.

Link: http://www.americablog.com/2009/10/axelrod-fox-isnt-real-news-organization.html

Clip of Axelrod: http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/10/axelrod-fox-news-is-not-really-a-news-organization.html

^ Nice far leftie blog.
It's laughable when the Administration has to start a war against a news organisation because that news source largely disagrees with its policies and people. I would gently remind Obama's team to remember what happened to Nixon when he tried to muzzle the Washington Post and the NYT.