Your Stimulus Package

**Jet Gorgon** · 17-02-2009, 09:39 PM

If you were in charge, what would you do to bolster your country's economy?

Here's my thoughts.
Cut business and personal taxes to promote busines and spending.
Get the Treasury in there to ensure credit is flowing so bisunesses can trade. And create new jobs.
Do like angel and VC investors and support new startups.
Infrastucture cash for tranport is good -- ease product rollouts.
Social security payments for the unemployed to keep them housed and fed until they can get a job and (like BkkAndrew forecast ages ago) prevent rioting.

**sabang** · 18-02-2009, 12:14 AM

A variety of things here and there, Keynesian style.

Cut taxes for the Middle class, in the hope of broad consumption stimulus. Temporarily. The Thai sponsored idea of 'spending credits' rather than cash is interesting.

Concentrate government aid on the retail (not Investment) banking sector- but with proviso's that the capital injections are to be used for business, not defensive capital shoring. I quite like the UK government model of taking equity in banks in these troubled times, but the proviso still applies.

Ramp up some infrastructural projects. The US in particular needs some of these, regardless of the crisis. Bring them forward.

Every corporate recipient of government aid to freeze executive bonuses. Loan moratoriums can apply to those that require it- the great unwashed need to know that the pain is mutual.

**daveboy** · 18-02-2009, 12:21 AM

I would stop spending billions on pointless wars and use it to build new schools and hospitals.

**Muadib** · 18-02-2009, 12:34 AM

First thing would be to cut ALL governmental spending UNTIL not only the budget was balanced, but a surplus was evident... The first to go would be ANY spending outside the continental US... All foreign aid (which we give and people piss in our hands), all military spending abroad, all PORK...

Cut personal income taxes on the middle class to stimulate spending...

Raise personal income tax on the upper income tax brackets...

Cut corporate taxes on small businesses, i.e.; under $20M gross annual revenues...

Give the stimulus money from cutting PORK to every man, woman & child in America...

**Jet Gorgon** · 18-02-2009, 05:22 AM

^ Interesting. But, I read in The Economist that the top 20% of wage earners pays 69% of all taxes in the US.

Originally Posted by sabang

The Thai sponsored idea of 'spending credits' rather than cash is interesting.

Can you elucidate on that, SB?

I just hate to think of governent being the "employer" instead of the governing body.

**helge** · 18-02-2009, 06:24 AM

1, Don't bail out banks and other finansiel institutions.
They took risks, they failed, let them fall.
The stronger banks will survive, and new ones will appear.
Garanties for minor deposits.
2.
Don't cut taxes. The goverment will need it, to increase
spending in infrastructure, schools etc, and they won't
spend it on chinese plastic junk, like you and I will.
Tax the rich. They don't need insentive.
3.
Housing, let the marked crash. Yes, people will get hurt.
They bought more than they could pay for.
And again here, let the banks bleed, and don't bail them
out. They took risks. Thats one of the reasons for their
high interestrates.
Houseprizes goes down,and that good for the next in line.
4
Raise taxes on gasoline. That'll give someone a kick in the
ass insentive to produce cars with better mileage and
that will scare the shit out of Exxon and the arabs.
Will promote public traffic and might be good for our
climate.
Furthermore this gives the government room, for letting
out the steam of future high oilprizes, by lowering taxes.
5
Stop panic. And if you want marketrules; don't call your
mama.

**Loy Toy** · 18-02-2009, 06:48 AM

1. Let every business organization that deserves to fail.............. fail.
Nobody likes to do spring cleaning but its gotta be done!

2. Raise taxes on anything that is not absolutley necessary by double the going rate today and distribute those funds back to where it is really needed (middle class and the poor).

Nothing more to add apart from my overall opinion that this mess we find ourselves in now is just another economic mechanism adjustment that is needed and to sort the good boys out from the bad.

Let the bad boys drown in the mire of shit that they have themselves created!

**Jet Gorgon** · 18-02-2009, 07:07 AM

^ & ^^. Interesting views. I agree with letting losers fail -- how bout the car cos? It's tough to let several banks fail, coz it would cause panic among depositers (run on the banks) and then even less credit lines (not that these feks are lending right now).
Higher taxes tho? OK, on luxury items mebbe? But isn't a swish car a luxury item?

**Panda** · 18-02-2009, 08:13 AM

Hey, this is not just a US crisis. The whole worlds monetary system is failing.
And its all because the worlds money-go-round is based not on a productive nations currency but a debt based $US.

The sooner Obama spends everything in reserve and runs out of loans from the rest of the world, the sooner the $US will take on a more realistic trading value based on its productivity rather than eternal debt and the sooner the whole world can get back on with business in a more rational manner.

These bail-out/stimulus plans are just delaying the inevitable. But the governments have got to do it I guess because if they did nothing they would be blamed for eternity for something that has been building for decades but just exploded on their watch. A bit like giving a dying cow a shot of adrenalin, -- doesn't change the outcome, just prolongs the pain.

**Jet Gorgon** · 18-02-2009, 08:25 AM

^ He's da big man, and I agree, BO looks like he's going to loot everything. I would beg to differ in that I think the lenders will pull out when the whole US economic engine is busted and nobody can buy Chinese or Japanese goods. But...maybe they'll stay in so they can dictate all policy.

**Panda** · 18-02-2009, 08:54 AM

^ The Chinese and Japanese have been the biggest lenders, -- to the US government anyway. They loaned the US $billions to buy their own goods with. Which is pretty dumb economics when its obvious they can never pay it back at current exchange rates. Perhaps they will buy up all the viable US industry with their $USs when the US currency crashes? You may be right.

In the shorter term, all the private investors in $USs are trying to do is to protect their wealth. When the US government runs out of loans and cash they will just print more paper money which in turn will devalue the $US and cause a flight to more secure investments like gold. Its something thats just got to happen and we are going down that path now. The bail-outs are just maintaining the unsustainable status quo a little longer is all.

**Jet Gorgon** · 18-02-2009, 09:05 AM

^ I agree. Gold has gone up as expected.

**Rural Surin** · 18-02-2009, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Panda

Hey, this is not just a US crisis. The whole worlds monetary system is failing.
And its all because the worlds money-go-round is based not on a productive nations currency but a debt based $US.

The sooner Obama spends everything in reserve and runs out of loans from the rest of the world, the sooner the $US will take on a more realistic trading value based on its productivity rather than eternal debt and the sooner the whole world can get back on with business in a more rational manner.

These bail-out/stimulus plans are just delaying the inevitable. But the governments have got to do it I guess because if they did nothing they would be blamed for eternity for something that has been building for decades but just exploded on their watch. A bit like giving a dying cow a shot of adrenalin, -- doesn't change the outcome, just prolongs the pain.

Indeed. Nothing is going to change until the Americans cease living in their imaginary existence. Remaining will be the same old livestyles and thought process. Throwing imaginary wealth on an already imaginary system and culture spells dome.

**Bugs** · 18-02-2009, 10:52 AM

My stimulus plan - nothing.

My plan to fix the current situation (from my post in another thread):

The hart of the problems IMHO are the availability of credit (because of the stability of banks), and the housing mortgage situation.

I think the solution to the banking issue is to get the hell out of the way, allow the market to function, allow many of those banks to fail. The market needs it’s pound of flesh and it will get it – now or later. I say better now so that we can focus on getting things turned around and have a better later.

I feel the solution to the mortgage situation is for the government to step up to the plate and guarantee one (home) mortgage per household. Take those bad mortgages off the books of the banks – and thus less of them will fail. Keep hard working people in their homes and keep neighborhoods intact.

IMHO if the bad banks are allowed to fail, the marginal banks are stabilized by clearing out much of their risky mortgage loan issues, and the good/stable banks are allowed to soar – then credit will free up. Once credit is freed up people/businesses (small-medium-and large) will once again start to invest, the economy will make the turn, and jobs will start to be created (by market forces) once again.

Now if given the chance to do a agenda type thing or two like Obama and the blue team did with the porkulus package I would completely revise the tax code.

Personal Federal Income Tax:

The bottom 50% (dollar value to be adjusted annually based upon previous year numbers), would pay zero percent. But at the same time I would eliminate all tax credits (earned income credits and the like).

I would eliminate all deductions, exemptions, and credits for everyone (except those living abroad).

First $350K for anyone living abroad is tax free – all income over $350k is taxed at the same rate as the below indicated top tier.

Everyone files a separate return – no more joint returns.

Two tiered tax for the rest – top tier paying more than the bottom tier:
Bottom tier: Income above the bottom 50% but less than $350k
Top tier: Income over $350K (basically the top 1%)

Interest and investment income to be taxed at the same rate as the greater than 50% but less than $350k group.

**attaboy** · 18-02-2009, 11:03 AM

Do away with income tax and institute a national sales tax. People say a sales tax isn't practical, it would be too great of an increase on each item so distribute it over everything including food. Raise the amount of the dole to the poor and working poor to cover the increase in the cost of food and goods.

**sabang** · 18-02-2009, 11:21 AM

There is another, more traditional Capitalist model to keep the important Banks operating. That is, quite simply, to let them fail as private corporations- and then the government nationalises them and keeps them running as a going concern. Shareholders and unsecured bondholders lose their investment, the state takes them over as a loss making entity for no consideration. Thems the breaks. Basically, the bailout packages as they stand are bailing out the 'Risk Capitalists' unnecessarily- in the real investment world, if what you invest in fails you lose your money. At least, that used to be the way before we became corporate welfare states.

Problem is, once billions were spent bailing out and propping up Investment Banks, there would have been much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Rich and Institutional investors in the considerably more important Commercial/Retail banks if they were hung out to dry. A precedent was set.

Originally Posted by sabang

The Thai sponsored idea of 'spending credits' rather than cash is interesting.

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...-000-asap.html (Workers urged to spend B2,000 asap)

The idea being that the money doled out has to be spent, not banked or even used to pay off debt. Consumption only money.

**Panda** · 18-02-2009, 11:36 AM

The only sure way to get people spending more money is to reduce the tax on spending. Call it VAT, GST or what ever names it goes under in various countries.
Not that its going to make any difference in the long run.

Taxing the sales of goods and services while trying to get people spending on goods and services is typical of the mentality of our so called economic experts that got us into this mess.

**larvidchr** · 18-02-2009, 11:45 AM

In Denmark ? Send 100.000 (presently about 1000, DK is a very small country

) Soldiers to Irak and Afganistan (nothing like war financed by somebody else to boost an economy), quadriple the size of the in Country military hardware and software producers.

Then ask the US to help finance our effort which they would be more than happy to do, finally they would have a no holds barred full fleged ally the propoganda value would easy better the money they would have to send us.

Last but not least, go back to the old ways, what is conqured is ours so the Danish supertankers and container ships would be really busy getting all the loot in circulation.

Easy peasy ;-) and besides Tex is not here to post

!

**Jet Gorgon** · 18-02-2009, 11:59 AM

^ OK. Time for a world war then? That usually gets economies going and sorts out the over-population problem at the same time. (oops...*duck, Jettie, incoming*)

**Panda** · 18-02-2009, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ OK. Time for a world war then? That usually gets economies going and sorts out the over-population problem at the same time. (oops...*duck, Jettie, incoming*)

USA did very well out of the world wars when their currency was tied to gold and valued properly. They were also in the prosperous position of being a nett exporter back then.
But the Vietnam war sent USA broke and thats when they (and the world) abandoned the gold standard completely in favour of the $US hegemony.
Now that USA has over-spent, over borrowed and lost its position as a nett exporter, war is not such a good idea for the Yanks as it would have to be financed on credit from other countries which they have no way of paying back at the present currency valuation.

But of course, thats not likely to stop them.

**GooMaiRoo** · 18-02-2009, 01:12 PM

Cheney Dunk Tank Raises $800 Billion For Nation

WASHINGTON—Organizers reported Sunday that the 44th White House Carnival was a rousing success, raising a record $800,000,066,845 for the federal government—$800 billion of which came from a dunk tank featuring former vice president Dick Cheney.

Cheney tells more than 200 million Americans to "throw or get the hell out of [his] sight."

According to Secretary of the Treasury and carnival volunteer Timothy Geithner, the 5-foot-deep tank has provided a much-needed boost to the nation's flagging economy.

"We expected a big turn out, but this is unbelievable," said Geithner, adding that it's tradition for the outgoing vice president to work the dunk tank. "More than half the country has already gone, and there's still about 20 million people stretching all the way to Maryland waiting for their chance to sink Cheney. We'll be leaving this booth open for as long as it takes for everyone to get a turn."

According to carnival sources, a visibly irritated Cheney, clad in sandals and a white cotton robe, arrived at the one-day event shortly before 10 a.m. After removing his robe to reveal a black, 1940s-style bathing suit, the vice president reportedly touched his hand to the water, muttered something to himself, and was then helped up the tank's ladder by several members of his Secret Service detail.

"All right, you candy arms, let's go," Cheney shouted at the line of people, which consisted of Americans, non-Americans, out-of-work autoworkers, teachers, luminaries from the science community, gays, lesbians, military personnel, members of Congress, children, and the entire Arab-American population. "Hey [former British prime minister Tony] Blair. I see you back there. Think you'll be able to stop crying long enough to throw the ball?"

Cheney Dunk Tank Raises $800 Billion For Nation | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Dan · 18-02-2009, 01:14 PM

Massive investment in the transition to a localised low-/zero-carbon economy. We're all going there whether we like it or not so it seems only sensible to make the transition as smooth and as beneficial as possible. Of course, whether any country will be willing or able to make the transition before it's forced upon them is highly doubtful.

**GooMaiRoo** · 19-02-2009, 11:25 AM

We're probably screwed for the next decade. Hopefully, we can prevent blood in the streets and ensure that future generations are smarter and more creative than we are.

1.) Abolish all federal income taxes and institute a 10% federal sales tax on everything but food and housing. The federal treasury would capture billions in extra income from the underground economy.
2.) Stop using Social Security as a quasi-welfare system so that an unemployed moron with octuplets can put as many of her kids on Social Security Disability Insurance as possible. Have the 15% payroll tax go into each worker's private account, invested in treasury bills, not the stock market. Make it inheritable.
3.) As unpalatable as it seems, continue Obama's current public works initiative to employ 4-5 million and prevent social unrest.
4.) Don't bail out Wall Street criminals, regardless of their scare tactics.
5.) Pump billions into loans to new companies that produce quality products and quality jobs that are export-intensive (electric cars, solar panels, etc..). America needs dozens of Airbus-type government initiatives.
6.) Stop pouring money into pointless military adventures in faraway places that are bleeding the country dry.
7.) Increase the velocity of money by legalizing prostitution.
8.) Turn around a young generation with the attention spans of ferrets whose only skills seem to be video games and skateboarding. For a mere $1 billion, an average grant of $20,000 a year could be given to 50,000 young chess players based on their FIDE chess rating. Do the same with 50,000 aspiring musicians and 50,000 movie-makers to help pay for their living and artistic production expenses if they can produce business plans and coherent works of art. The rewards from this would be multifold.
9.) Create a federal home foreclosure prevention agency whereby foreclosures of owner-occupied homes are put into government receivership. If the occupant agrees, the homes are bought by the federal government at current market (low) prices and refinanced to the occupants at favorable terms.
10.) If there's any money left after the crisis is over, go back on the gold or silver standard and abolish the Federal Reserve.

**blackgang** · 21-02-2009, 09:30 AM

Hows that

**raycarey** · 21-02-2009, 09:34 AM

santelli's a pretty smart guy, but he went over the top and got slapped down by WH press secretary gibbs yesterday.

"I'm not entirely sure where Mr. Santelli lives or in what house he lives," Gibbs said during the daily briefing. "But the American people are struggling every day to meet their mortgage, stay in their jobs, pay their bills to send their kids to school, and to hope that they don't get sick or somebody they care for gets sick that sends them into bankruptcy. I think we left a few months ago the adage that if it was good for a derivatives trader, that it was good for main street. I think the verdict is in on that."

Gibbs picked up a hard copy of the housing plan from the briefing room lectern and implored Santelli to "download it, hit print and begin to read it." Gibbs added: "I would be more than happy to have him come here and read it. I'd be happy to buy him a cup of coffee, decaf."

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