Thread: US Comes In Last Place

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

As for the US. I don't give a damn.

Yes we know. You've subtlety hinted at this before.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Most Americans are not displeased with healthcare provided, Gallup polls continually show this.

Most recent polls? Link, please

Originally Posted by Texpat

Most Americans have decent health insurance that covers a large majority of their costs.

Define "most" and "large majority," in this context

Originally Posted by Texpat

If I was dying, or had to be sliced open, there's no operating room in the world I'd rather be in than a top regional medical center in the US.

Neither would anyone else!

Originally Posted by Texpat

You can't expect a behemoth like the US to operate with the same efficiency

Why not? It's the richest country in the world, it has the largest economy in the world, it uses far more than its share of the world's resources and it spends more on healthcare than any other nation on Earth!

Hootad, thank you for your kind words about my Sis.

I look at it all this way. I work to support myself and my future. I would rather pay lower taxes (compare, 5% in Hong Kong and, for me, 42% in Canada) and pay for my own health coverage. Then donate to charities that I can confirm don't take 90% for admin. Canadian hospitals and clinics and SPCA and "research whatever" are always asking for handouts. Fek, where are my tax dollars going? Who builds the hospitals? Why are these places always campaigning for feking funding?
I think you still believe that doctors, dentists, hospitals, and socialist-type governments are humanitarians looking out for the good of mankind. Fekin wake up. It's all about money.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

I would rather pay lower taxes (compare, 5% in Hong Kong and, for me, 42% in Canada) and pay for my own health coverage.

I'm sure most people think the same, but there are many people who can't afford comprehensive healthcare. What happens to them?

Does the state intervene and force the able members of society to look after those less able (a la France, Canada, UK) or does the state go with an 'every man, woman & child for themselves' policy (a la USA). I know which one I think is better.

Personally, I think an ideal situation is that the state looks after everyone, but those with more means pay for private healthcare too, to relieve the burden on the state run services, as long as the private healthcare is not performed using the same facilities as the state healthcare, which is my biggest bugbear with the UK system.

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

or does the state go with an 'every man, woman & child for themselves' policy (a la USA).

Ever heard of Medicaid or Medicare?

These are two very large programs that provide medical care to the destitute and elderly, respectively.

From Wiki Medicaid:

"The Medicaid program provided health care services to more than 46.0 million people in 2001.In 2002, Medicaid enrollees numbered 39.9 million Americans, the largest group being children (18.4 million or 46 percent). It is estimated that 42.9 million Americans will be enrolled in 2004 (19.7 million of them children) at a total cost of $295 billion. Medicaid payments assist nearly 60 percent of all nursing home residents and about 37 percent of all childbirths in the United States."

From Wiki Medicare:

"Medicare expenditures from the American government were $256.8 billion in fiscal year 2002. Beneficiary premiums are highly subsidized, and net outlays for the program, accounting for the premiums paid by subscribers, were $230.9 billion."

That's $526 billion in a single year -- certainly doesn't sound like every man and woman for themselves to me.

From Wiki NHS:

"The costs of running the NHS (est. £104 billion in 2007-8) are met directly from general taxation."

You can do the math.

^ But isn't the entire point that the US spends more on healthcare yet has less tangible results for it. It's clear that money isn't the whole issue here.

^ Simply refuting a claim that it's every man for himself in the US. More than half a trillion says it ain't. The US gives twice as much in handouts than the total budget of the NHS. But the US population is 5x.

No comment about whether the care is worth a shit or not. For that see the Gallup polls above.

Originally Posted by Texpat

The US gives twice as much in handouts than the total budget of the NHS. But the US population is 5x.

Surely they should be spending 5x the amount then?

Well the objective/salient facts as I understand them are:

1) that the US spends more on healthcare (of the developed nations) yet;

2) more people die of preventable/treatable diseases and;

3) one of the leading (if not the?) causes of bankruptcy in the US is healthcare expenses.

Therefore there's something seriously askew somewhere. Given those facts it also makes little sense to compare it to the systems of other nations (cost or otherwise) which are, objectivly, better.

On one hand it's pathetic.... I saw the headline but didn't read it through because I was in doubt of it's validity..

But after further thought I think it has it's upside..It makes it very hard to continue this obviously unfounded argument about all of the downsides to social health care like long waits etc.. Especially since there isn't anywhere left to go now, but....Up...

Originally Posted by Driventowin

But after further thought I think it has it's upside..It makes it very hard to continue this obviously unfounded argument about all of the downsides to social health care like long waits etc.. Especially since there isn't anywhere left to go now, but....Up...

Foe whatever reason there seems to be a hardcore of people who'll pretty much do absolutely anything but admit what's right in front of their face when it comes to this issue.

None so blind that will not see.

I wonder why nobody's interested in why France has the best health care of these 18~ countries. Forty posts full of negativity about US health care.

Not one about what France is doing so much better than everyone else. Does anybody know or perhaps it's just not as entertaining.

Consider a similar-sized, similar-geography, similar-populated country just miles from its border with full-on health services provided free, entered the poll in the second to last position.

I'll answer that for you ... without the data it doesn't mean much. The differences could be microns or miles.

None so blind that will not see.

I don't have a horse in this race. I've spent mere pennies on healthcare for my entire life, wif/ves and children included.

Originally Posted by Texpat

I wonder why nobody's interested in why France has the best health care of these 18~ countries. Forty posts full of negativity about US health care.

Why would they? France's system is clearly working. And to the best of my knowledge of all those listed the US is the only one without socialised healthcare.

Clearly the US system isn't working, and this from the wealthiest country on the list. Focusing on France or hypothetical other nations just distracts from that. It most certainly doesn't improve or aid it.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Clearly the US system isn't working, and this from the wealthiest country on the list. Focusing on France or hypothetical other nations just distracts from that. It most certainly doesn't improve or aid it.

Are you serious? You seem to have some sort of agenda here that I'm just not understanding.

Focusing on France just distracts from that

Well fuck me runnin', Gomer, who should we look to for improvement? Ethopia?

Why wouldn't any country in the bottom half of this numeric listing at least consider what those at the top of the list are doing right, and maybe glean some lessons learned? Perhaps compare and contrast styles rather than throw darts and point fingers.

Did you misunderstand what I said?

Sure the US doesn't have socialized healthcare.
The UK does and they landed in the next-to-last position. Not a shining endorsement if you ask me.

And why are you so concerned with US health care? Is it just argument for argument's sake?

Originally Posted by Texpat

You seem to have some sort of agenda here that I'm just not understanding

Agenda? Hardly, it's not like it effects me directly. I just find the whole situation to be interesting is all. Fascinating when some of the attitudes and opinions behind it all are dissected actually.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Did you misunderstans what I said?

Apparently so. Though to be fair your edit followed after my post.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Sure the US doesn't have socialized healthcare. The UK does and they landed in the next-to-last position. Not a shining endorsement if you ask me.

Well yeah. But it is above the US, as are all the other socialist systems.

Originally Posted by Texpat

And why are you so concerned with US health care? Is it just argument for argument's sake?

Another edit I missed...

For the reasons I already said. On top of which if the US is to hold itself out as the leader of the free world then a certain amount of scrutiny and criticism is to be expected, is it not. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Consider a similar-sized, similar-geography, similar-populated country just miles from its border with full-on health services provided free, entered the poll in the second to last position.

I thought I had pointed out that the UK NHS is not doing very well, and that it needs a major overhaul. Yes, the French are very lucky and the world should be envious of their health service.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

if the US is to hold itself out as the leader of the free world then a certain amount of scrutiny and criticism is to be expected, is it not. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Well, I've had enough healthcare chat for a lifetime. I'm off to find some economy banter, or maybe military musings.

See you there!

Crickey, some Americans sure do get a mite precious when faced with criticisms. Perhaps because to criticse is considered 'un-patriotic' in the US so nobody does it so they just steam ahead with a sinking healthcare system?

Originally Posted by Texpat

I don't have a horse in this race. I've spent mere pennies on healthcare for my entire life, wif/ves and children included.

Well, you're lucky then. A lot of American families, with insurance, get hit with a major illness and then find all out about all the things that aren't covered while their doctor spends hours on the phone with their insurance provider trying to get approval for treatments, instead of attending to their patients.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Ever heard of Medicaid or Medicare?

Yes, and they'll make a useful fable for my grandchildren, because they're going bankrupt and will be greatly reduced in the coming years, as they are unsustainable financially for the US economy. Same for Social Security and many pensions schemes.