Thread: Burma and the UN

as identified by yourself ,

China is the weakest link ...............

these atrocities must stop , it's the 21st century ffs ,

so pressure on China , note that Singapore has broken with China and stated that it is not an internal matter

NO More can we stand by and watch unarmed religious men SLAUGHTERED by their own soldiers .

enjoy the Olympics and remember where your electric comes from ..........

Originally Posted by Narachon

Natives got a hold of? Give me a break! It's their country, after all! So you mean to say that Africa was much better under European Colonialism? Why do you think Africa is in the state it's in now? Who do you think destabilized the continent in the first place?

By far, yes.

Originally Posted by Narachon

I would highly suggest that Marmite the Dog, and others who share and still believe in the anachronistic doctrine of "The White Man's Burden" ( in addition to those who do wish to really understand why Africa is in the sorry state it's in now ) to please read a very good book called " How Europe Underdeveloped Africa ", by the late Walter Rodeny.

I would suggest you read Empire by Niall Ferguson. It gives a very good account of how Britain gave everything the Africans needed to go on and make better countries for themselves (huge investment, industry, infrastructure, respectability in the world economy and education), but as anyone can plainly see, they have royally fucked it up.

Originally Posted by Narachon

But it as it stands now, the UN or any other outside organization or Nation State ( with the possible exception of China

And what about the UK, US, Australian and European companies that are firmly entrenched there?

The Burma Campaign UK: The Dirty List - Companies Supporting the Regime in Burma

China threatens the WORLD with the fate of the Burmese people

"If the situation in Myanmar takes a worse turn because of external intervention, it will be the people of the country who will bear the brunt,"
China's UN envoy Wang Guangya said.

The 'white mans burden' or 'colonial legacy' argument has some validity, but only up to a point. For a start, artificially imposed, shifting boundaries and territorial struggle are as much the historical landscape in Europe as the 'countries' they colonised.

For a second, why is it that some states have graduated from a colonial legacy and, relatively speaking, 'ran with the ball'- such as Malaysia, Brazil, Chile, Vietnam, Canada etc; while others have not- Zimbabwe, Burma, Nigeria etc.
Obviously painting with a very broad brush, but the answers do not lie with colonialisation alone. Country or regional specific factors need to be looked at too.

Back on topic to Burma, it is a fertile nation, rich in natural resources and strategically located as a bridge between two of the worlds major population and cultural regions- the Indian subcontinent and SE Asia. It even inherited some reasonable infrastructure from the colonial period- unlike, say, Congo. I can see no reason why it does not enjoy the same standard of living as Malaysia, or at least Thailand, other than bad government.

p.s- Good posts narachon.

Fair points made about Africa, despite my disagreeing with much of what you wrote. Take Zimbabwe for instance. They had absolutely everything in place there to show the world that a modern African country could be a success. Mugabe was educated, the country had modern institutions and a willingness on behalf of the white Zimbabweans to work with their black brothers to make a go of it. Then look at what happened.

You can say the same about Kenya.

But, as I have said in other threads here in more detail, there are a few options that the Africans have.

1. Continue the way they are. A few people in government will have millions of dollars stashed away and their people will have nothing. Get clothing and food from the west and provide no incentive for you people to learn any skills or produce anything for themselves.

2. Western (not US) governments form coalition governments with the African countries to provide the essentials. Concentrate on education, services, healthcare & attracting investors. If the African governments start taking the piss, these lose all aid and the personal bank accounts of the leaders get frozen. Yes, it's a form of colonisation, but seeing as the last high point in Africa's history was under British rule (the Germans, French and Belgians especially, were a disgrace imo), then it can only be a good thing.

3. The Africans stop pretending to be westernised and the world recognises that they are tribal people with no political boarders. Dissolve the African governments and let the continent return to its natural state. There would be traditional forms of governance and mineral exploitation would end. How you would interact with the rest of the world, I have no idea, but it should shut up those who keep on going on about the false borders in Africa (despite there being 'false' borders in nearly every country in the world).

Until people stop bloody apologising for these people, nothing will get done. Africa is a hugely rich continent, but their leaders are evil. the only people to blame for the mess in Africa are the Africans. They've had long enough to sort their shit out, but instead of things getting better there, it's getting worse.

Until there are stable governments there, there will be no significant investment, and they have proven that they are incapable of self governance. Sorry that it doesn't fit in with the PC blinkered world that many people have brainwashed themselves to believe in, but the truth isn't always nice and pretty.

Err, this thread probably needs splitting. Sorry.

^

I contend that the cut 'n pastes are directly related to the issue and relevant to discussion ,

or is conjecture more in keeping with issues ?

Originally Posted by Mid

the "hell" of the military regime's prisons:

I wonder how many citizens of Burma have been recently added to these prisons to spend the rest of their lives.

Originally Posted by Mid

The world was not watching in 1988 when thousands were killed by the guns of the regime. They are watching now. The people of Burma must not be let down."

Exactly right, while the UN is ponsing around writing reports and discussing how to word it in a PC way , so as not to upset China the Burmese people are suffering and dying right now and their can be no deneying this. This Junta government has been doing it freely for years and years and isn't going to stop over night because the UN visited for a few days and are requesting them to change their ways. Also the government meeting with "The Lady", in reality what's that going to achieve? Big deal UN it looks nice on the surface and yes the world may soon forget again unless the monks,Karen, Shan and others join forces to attack this current government. No outside help is coming.

Originally Posted by Mid

^

I contend that the cut 'n pastes are directly related to the issue and relevant to discussion ,

or is conjecture more in keeping with issues ?

Yes. Issues is for discussion of issues and expression of opinion on those issues. Cut and pastes are fine when they're part of the discussion but not when they're just dropped into the thread without comment. the news part of the forum is for that.

Forum Description

Issues There is much going on in the world and the opportunity to discuss these issues and how they affect your world is always relevant. Your opinion is important and though we might not solve the problems confronting society, we just might open someones eyes. What is your opinion?

into the thread without comment

ok see edits ....................

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Maybe rename the thread so it doesn't have the word Burma in it?

You cheeky fucker. You are hereby banned.

Originally Posted by Narachon

Sorry, I've been away from TD for the past two weeks due to the General Debate session here .... Thank god it's over ,at least for another year. ( The 62nd General Assembly is still on, until December though... )


But this thread did catch my eye though....For the obvious reasons..

Originally Posted by benbaaa

I've read a lot in the last two weeks from the UN about the need to engage in talks with the junta about the steps needed to bring democracy to the country.

Well, this is my suggestion:

Step 1: jail the generals and their lackeys and throw away the key.
.

Now, how will you go about doing that? You're joking, right? This is the real world, like it or not, and not some TV show. Remember, Burma is a sovereign country, like it or not. You can't send in an foreign law enforcement force in against the governments wishes. All the recent UN peacekeeping actions were done at the behest and invite of the requesting countries government, as in the case of Somolia, Bosnia, Hati, Indonesia, and now finally Dafur in Sudan.
Now many talk about the case of "Taking Out" the Junta, which is also a very bad idea, and which would set a very dangerous precentent in international relations. Believe it or not, the United Nations does not have a Tom Clancy type "Rainbow Six" covert strike force operation for situations such as this. The UN was set up originally to be a peacekeeping and diplomatic organization between countries, to provide a mechanism for international law, not a Global Law Enforcement / Strikeforce Organization. Now enforcement of those International Laws relies on the member nations themselves according to UN charter. A seemingly better venue to take the case of would be the new International Criminal Court , esablished in 2002, but just like in most UN resolutions in these situations, does not have any real effective enforcement powers. Some people say why don't we send in UN peacekeepers to fix the problem in Myamar? Well, for one, Peacekeepers are sent to regions where armed conflict has ,or have recently ceased (or paused, as in the case of DMZ in Korea) to enforce the terms of peace agreements and to discourage combatants from resuming hostilities. Members of the UN Security council would have to approve any UN Peacekeeping military action, especially in the case of a countries internal crisis. And , as I noted above, those Peacekeepers would have to be invited by the government of the country in question themselves.

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Step 2: appoint Aung San Suu Kyi as the democratically elected prime minister.
.

And who is doing the appointing? Remember, What you wish to do sends a dangerous continuing prececent by a country intalling another nations leader. Myamar ideally should be in a state where the Burmese people freely can and are able do the "appointing" with properly set up democratic elections themselves.

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Step 3: er, that's it.
.

Really? I thought you had more bright ideas.

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Please will TD pass this on to the UN for their consideration? Thank you.

Duly noted. I'll pass it to the SG when I see him.

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Nelson Mandela managed to not fuck up too badly.

Fucking hell. A political statement from the mouth of Marmers that I agree with...

SA is still going down the toilet, as with all other countries in Africa that the natives got hold of.

Is that better, Benny?

Natives got a hold of? Give me a break! It's their country, after all! So you mean to say that Africa was much better under European Colonialism? Why do you think Africa is in the state it's in now? Who do you think destabilized the continent n the first place?

I would highly suggest that Marmite the Dog, and others who share and still believe in the anachronistic doctrine of "The White Man's Burden" ( in addition to those who do wish to really understand why Africa is in the sorry state it's in now ) to please read a very good book called " How Europe Underdeveloped Africa ", by the late Walter Rodeny.
While I agree that many Africans and their leaders are still very much accountable for their role in the continuing underdevelopment of the continent , the fact of the matter is that the source of the whole problem were basically the results of the political and social legacy of European colonialism that was inflicted on Africans after nearly 100 years of economic exploitation and political repression ( they also had no say in the political dealings of their homelands, mind you), not to mention the arbitrary borders established by those colonial powers for their convience, with utter disregard for the indigenous people, their histories or past animosities. This isn't even including the huge impact of the large and involuntary mass migration of Sub Saharan Africans out of the continent during the Slave Trade in the 18th and 19th centuries, which greatly impacted the various regional populations of Africa at that point in time. After "Indepencence", the Europeans pretty much up and left the native Africans with little preparation or training for the maintainance of the local economic and political infrastructure. No wonder there is so much political unrest, economic uncertainty, wide spread poverty and disease in Africa. To people who are not knowedgable in World History, this may seem completely unrelated to the topic of Myamar, yet the after effects of European colonialism in creating the "Third World" applies as much to most of Southeast Asia as it does to Africa.

Originally Posted by Scooter

While you may think that in the end that the UN is a big Joke, ( and I am sure that you are not alone in that regard ), yes, it's quite obvious that the United Nations is not the best world organization that we could have now. Often times in the past , the UN ( and also the international community in general ) drew severe criticism for its in action during similar situations ( Rawanda, Bosnia/Kosovo, etc ). But until you can come up with a much better one, Scooter, it's the best that we have to use for this situation now.


Now It may seem on the surface that there is no real or little movement on the diplomatic front, there does seem to be some promise of positive engagement. Ibrahim Gambari, Special Adviser to the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon just returned from Myamar to report not only to the SG himself, but to the United Nations Security Council. Some of the members, most notably The United States, in addition to it's own present ongoing sanctions, wishes to enact tougher ones though the Security Council. But that of course will be blocked by Myamar's main patron, China, also a Member in the Security Council, who considers the crisis an internal one that the Myamar government should take care of themselves.



UN Photo of The Secretary-General's envoy for Myanmar, Ibrahim Gambari, meeting on 30 September with the jailed dissident leader, Aung San Suu Kyi.




One important outcome of Gambari's mission was the announcement by the Myamar Government of a possible meeting between Senior General Than Shwe and Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. In his briefing to the Security Council, he said that he had emphasized to Myanmar’s highest authorities the changing domestic, regional and international context within which his mission was taking place, and expressed the international community’s deep concern at recent events. He also said he had been able to deliver clear and strong messages on behalf of the Secretary-General to the authorities at the highest level. His first message had been to emphasize the changing domestic, regional and international context within which his mission was taking place, with the clear support of the Council and the ASEAN countries. Gambari had also expressed the Secretary-General’s and the international community’s deep concern at recent events and made specific recommendations.
While It's still to early to see if Ibrahim Gambari's visit was a success or failure, I do have high hopes regading the outcome of this terrible ongoing situation in Myamar. But It does remains to be seen whether or not the present leadership there will continue the process of sustained engagement by the United Nations, with the active support of the international community, in addition and especially the countries in the region ( ie. ASEAN ), in the democratization and respect for human rights in Myamar....

erm, i think you missed the obvious sarcasm in the OP.

Originally Posted by Lily

Originally Posted by sledge

Aung San Suu Kyi stance has been for absolutley no foreign help and that Burma can survive without this help.

Where has she stated this? And when?

a number of times dear.

edit : he's sort of messed up her quote a little.

she does not want foreign based help in dealing with Burma since the military junta receives political credibility and money for this, she does not want foreign interaction or aid with Burma since the junta just gets rich off of this. - she feels that the last 10-20 years of political pressure from the outside world has not worked to effect change and that complete isolation for the junta may allow the burmese people to do something instead....

^ Bit of a tough call that. The military has the guns and the money, and the ability to isolate the country from the outside world.
There is no powerful competing clique in Burma. I think the UN has to be quite proactive on this one, assuming it is indeed true that the military regime is deeply unpopular at grass roots level.
They have certainly done sweet Fa for anybody but themselves in Burma.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

erm, i think you missed the obvious sarcasm in the OP.

D'ya think?

UN poised to unite on Burma
Published: Thursday, October 11, 2007

Security Council expected to adopt declaration today 'deploring' violence


give 'em a couple more days and they will be condoning it ...................

Originally Posted by Narachon

[Now I've personally done a mission in the ECA and one for OCHA, so I've actually talked to and helped people over there in Africa. Yes, It's a nearly impossible and daunting task, but at least I've made an attempt to help out the suffering and hardships over there.
Unlike you.

Was this mission you did charity on your part? If so, good on you.

If it was your job and you got paid for it, leave out the "I'm a martyr, so, I'm morally better than you" bollux.

first up , let me put a couple of things on the table ,

my initial reaction was one of great hope when the Lady had the audience with the protesters , I had been following the story prior as one of many .

as the atrocities of the coming days unfolded , I began trying to collect them in a central source , an electronic scrap book if you will , with the immediate added bonus of global distribution .

then as the true magnitude of the authorities began to circulate on the net , I felt it was time to make some noise and try to attract attention , same as many others before me .


now to the present ,

neither the proposed Olympic Boycott nor the Arms Embargo have a snowflakes chance in hel_l of succeeding IMHO , sadly the Olympic Boycott call even wins the media exposure stakes .

the rules of this game have change Big Time however , there is now a huge body of evidence against the junta in the public domain , something that the previous uprisings lacked .

..........................


this from todays LA Times

Saving Burma the right way

Creating a viable democracy requires a long-term global commitment than doesn't include 'regime change.'

By Thant Myint-U
October 14, 2007

I was 8 when I experienced my first protests in Burma. It was 1974, and thousands of students and Buddhist monks had taken to the streets, angered by the military government's handling of burial arrangements for my grandfather, U Thant, the former United Nations secretary-general.
snip
This is not an easy sell. After the images televised over the last few weeks, it's easy to reach for more sanctions and look for any possible way to clobber the Burmese junta. But with a new realism on the part of the international community and fresh, results-oriented policies, Burma may still be saved from the nightmare to come.

Thant Myint-U is the author of "River of Lost Footsteps: Histories of Burma."
latimes.com

Burma's Mission Holds Closed Door Meeting on Nuclear Disarmament at UN
By Lalit K. Jha / United Nations
October 16, 2007


The Burmese mission at the United Nations convened a closed door meeting on the issue of nuclear disarmament on Monday.

The meeting, chaired by the Burmese Ambassador to European Union, Wunna Maung Lwin, was convened to discuss with member nations the resolution on nuclear disarmament tabled by the government of Myanmar in the UN General Assembly.

The resolution that calls for total elimination of nuclear weapons has been brought before the General Assembly by the Burmese mission every year since 1994. Last year the resolution was passed by 115 votes to 48, while 18 countries abstained from voting.

snip

irrawaddy.org



came across this to-day , not sure what to make of it , so though I'd put it up here for comment .

Red Herring comes to mind ................