Some things never change...

**Robski** · 19-09-2007, 12:25 AM

I was searching for that thread about 'who is your favorite American?' or something like that, but couldn't find it although I did come across a few interesting and many bizarre posts along the way.
Anyway I'll post this here, Emma Goldman is someone I've only just beacome 'aquainted' with and apart from Benjamin Franklin must be the most influential American ever, this is something I read by her and it still rings true nearly a hundred years later. I know, I know.... she's a woman, a Yank and she's been dead for ages, where's the interesting bit? Just read it and see what you think. Like I say, some things never change.

An extract from;
A New Declaration of Independence
by Emma Goldman

[Published in

Mother Earth, Vol. IV, no. 5, July 1909.]

When, in the course of human development, existing institutions prove inadequate to the needs of

man, when they serve merely to enslave, rob, and oppress mankind, the people have the eternal
right to rebel against, and overthrow, these institutions.
The mere fact that these forces--inimical to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--are legalized
by statute laws, sanctified by divine rights, and enforced by political power, in no way justifies their
continued existence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all human beings, irrespective of race, color, or sex, are
born with the equal right to share at the table of life; that to secure this right, there must be
established among men economic, social, and political freedom; we hold further that government
exists but to maintain special privilege and property rights; that it coerces man into submission and
therefore robs him of dignity, self-respect, and life.

The history of the American kings of capital and authority is the history of repeated crimes,
injustice, oppression, outrage, and abuse, all aiming at the suppression of individual liberties and
the exploitation of the people. A vast country, rich enough to supply all her children with all
possible comforts, and insure well-being to all, is in the hands of a few, while the nameless millions
are at the mercy of ruthless wealth gatherers, unscrupulous lawmakers, and corrupt politicians.

Sturdy sons of America are forced to tramp the country in a fruitless search for bread, and many of
her daughters are driven into the street, while thousands of tender children are daily sacrificed on
the altar of Mammon. The reign of these kings is holding mankind in slavery, perpetuating poverty
and disease, maintaining crime and corruption; it is fettering the spirit of liberty, throttling the voice
of justice, and degrading and oppressing humanity. It is engaged in continual war and slaughter,
devastating the country and destroying the best and finest qualities of man; it nurtures superstition
and ignorance, sows prejudice and strife, and turns the human family into a camp of Ishmaelites.

**Texpat** · 19-09-2007, 11:42 PM

Yeah, she's right. We should all be equally wealthy/poor. There's enough to go around, so everybody gets some.

It's the smart, saavy, risk-takers that are hoarding it all from the rest of us. It's just not fair!!!

The world needs ditch-diggers too.

**raycarey** · 19-09-2007, 11:45 PM

it's well past time for a redistribution of wealth.

**stroller** · 19-09-2007, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

It's the smart, saavy, risk-takers that are hoarding it all from the rest of us.

Risk-takers???
The lay-off packages of some CEOs when they screw up are more money than the populations of entire cities could earn in a lifetime in some regions of the world.

**Richard Littlejohn** · 19-09-2007, 11:58 PM

High time for a revolution.

**sabang** · 20-09-2007, 12:11 AM

I definitely think the rampant greed, excessive consumerism and obscene income disparities in Western societies are not sustainable, and need to be addressed.

What harm would it do someone earning $5mm + per year to pay 10% more tax, or 15%?
What harm would it do if the bloated Pentagon cut 15% from it's budget, and the money was invested in Education, or healthcare?

I think our societies are losing the plot, and the symptoms are manifest in many ways- from the Top to the Bottom.

**raycarey** · 20-09-2007, 08:58 AM

what percentage of the world earns $1 a day....are those the 'ditch diggers' texpat is talking about?

**barbaro** · 20-09-2007, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by raycarey

what percentage of the world earns $1 a day....are those the 'ditch diggers' texpat is talking about?

I think the U.S. should focus on the U.S., not foreigner who make $1 per day.

The U.S. can donate knowledge and training, sure. But should focusing on the middle class stiff that slip down everyear, and provide more assistance to lower and poor families that want training or other opportunities.

**Lily** · 20-09-2007, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Milkman

The U.S. can donate knowledge and training, sure. But should focusing on the middle class stiff that slip down everyear, and provide more assistance to lower and poor families that want training or other opportunities.

I don't think that you will get any argument here about this. Most people think the US should look after its old, poor and vulnerable section of society instead of trying to run the world.

In short, clean up your own backyard.

The poverty and neglect that Hurrican Katrina uncovered, shocked most of the western world and probably some of the developing world.

**Marmite the Dog** · 20-09-2007, 10:39 AM

The quote in the OP is a nice idea, but complete fantasy.

It goes against the laws of nature. Those who are privileged, hard-working, lucky, intelligent, risk-taking etc., will always be at the top of the pile with the rest of us scrambling around underneath.

**Texpat** · 20-09-2007, 11:21 AM

^zactly

**Texpat** · 20-09-2007, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

Risk-takers???
The lay-off packages of some CEOs when they screw up are more money than the populations of entire cities could earn in a lifetime in some regions of the world.

Seems to me I should spend less time on this forum and go out and get an MBA if I don't want to dig ditches.

Some play by the rules and, win or lose, accept the outcome.
Some continually try to change the rules and will never be happy with the outcome.

**stroller** · 20-09-2007, 11:34 AM

Which rules?

**raycarey** · 20-09-2007, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Milkman

I think the U.S. should focus on the U.S., not foreigner who make $1 per day.

is this topic only about the US? since it is in 'issues' i thought it was a relevant point.

Originally Posted by Texpat

go out and get an MBA if I don't want to dig ditches.

more tired banalities from someone born on second base and thinks he hit a double.

**Robski** · 20-09-2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

The quote in the OP is a nice idea, but complete fantasy.

It goes against the laws of nature. Those who are privileged, hard-working, lucky, intelligent, risk-taking etc., will always be at the top of the pile with the rest of us scrambling around underneath.

It's not nature that makes the law Marmite, it is men and women.
If it wasn't for people like Goldman, 'scrambling around underneath' may be considered a luxury. As it is she was a pioneer for many freedoms that we, you included, take for granted and that many now would like to take away by claiming that they are not inalienable rights but go against 'the laws of nature'.

**Lily** · 20-09-2007, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Robski

As it is she was a pioneer for many freedoms that we, you included, take for granted and that many now would like to take away by claiming that they are not inalienable rights

But we are not all Americans.

Most civilised countries do look after their poor and old better than the US does.

**ADare** · 20-09-2007, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Which rules?

Who's rules?

**blackgang** · 20-09-2007, 07:06 PM

Carey said

it's well past time for a redistribution of wealth.

does that sound a little PINK or real RED.

Originally Posted by Lily

But we are not all Americans. Most civilised countries do look after their poor and old better than the US does.

Well they treat their old people a hell of a lot better than a lot of countrys do,, just look, they worked so do get medi-care and some money, upwards of $1200 a month if they worked very many years, and just look at how many young people want to take away their SSA income.
But the govt could do a lot more about the price of the prescription drugs that they have to take to stay alive.

I never got much education in a school house, but from the time I was 18 I always made more than twice the average wages of working folks, granted I worked a lot of hours and worked hard, so I deserved more that the folks setting on their educated ass' and crying for more.
Fuck this redistribution of wealth, if you are not happy with what you got, the get a move on and go make the kind of money that you are worth, cause what you are getting now doing the things that you are doing is all that you are worth.

**raycarey** · 20-09-2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

I never got much education in a school house,

no, really?

and secondly, "school house"? good god man, how old are you?

**Lady Hawk** · 20-09-2007, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Lily

But we are not all Americans. Most civilised countries do look after their poor and old better than the US does.

Although i agree with you lily the UK is actually no better i have worked with the old and inferm and am ashamed by the way they are treated.
The uk are not reqiured to salute the indoctrination of the flag every day although that is still no excuse to treat people the way they do or is it in my mind accetable to treat the x service as they do

**Boon Mee** · 20-09-2007, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

it's well past time for a redistribution of wealth.

Heh...been reading your Marx have you?
...'redistribution of wealth' - that's heavy trolling there ray...

More informative reading would be some Gordon Gekko quotes here

**blackgang** · 20-09-2007, 07:35 PM

Always have thought he was a shade PINK, maybe a poofie too.
He minds me of the media, hears about something and as long as it is bad about somebody, US preferred, then he starts making accusations and throwing stones, never has confirmation as to what really happened, just likes to stir shit and promote dissension.
Thinks it makes him look smart..
see that he made a post after my last, can't read it tho

**sabang** · 20-09-2007, 09:36 PM

I have referred to what I perceive as a malaise, a loss of energy and purpose in our society in my post somewhere above.

I have also put referred to greed, consumerism and unwarranted income disparity as being a part of the reason for this. I am not a Socialist btw.

What are your views on my viewpoint- be you left or right, merkin or euro?

**blackgang** · 20-09-2007, 09:55 PM

^ I can't see anything wrong with your ideas, the very rich should pay some extra tax, but I do not think that that tax should be dumped on the blue collar working stiff that busts his ass at hard labor for 16 or more hours each day so he can pocket some money.
Maybe should be on capitol gains, that is unworked for money but still takes some guts to invest to make it.
But it should not be given to some asshole who will not work and pays no tax and just sets on his ass all day and crys about how broke he is either.

**Robski** · 20-09-2007, 10:59 PM

The redistribution should come from those that are truly wealthy, after all they get rich from tax dollars and subsidies.
It's not about left or right, red or blue, freedom is no more a requisite of socialism than it is of capitalism, and whoever the ruling party is it will always have the interests of the wealthy at heart.
Look at Gordon Brown (the new British PM)(left wing socialist) welcoming Margaret Thatcher (right wing conservative) to 10 Downing Street, there is only one party now and that is a party for the rich, they are so far beyond our reach that they don't even have to pretend that they care for anyones interests but their own.
Just as with the US administration apart from some social policy differences the maintainence of the status quo remains the priority.

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