The wall thread.

[Cujo]

This could be interesting to see how it develops over time. A common refrain from the trumpettes is that he should be taken seriously but not literraly, as in he's not literally going to build an actual wall. That's their out in the event he doesn't actually build the wall but everything I've heard from Trump is that he fully intends to build an actual wall. The best wall, the greatest wall you've ever seen, but it seems a spanner may have found it's way into the works already.
I don't think he quite planned on not being king or dictator and having to deal within an organisation with checks and balances.

Donald Trump's envoys head to Mexico as cracks emerge in border wall plan

Mexico will host its first high-profile Donald Trump envoys this week with at least one consolation: the proposed border wall is itself walled in, for now, by Washington bureaucracy.

Federal agencies are reportedly resisting the idea and Congress is hesitant to fund it, leaving the president fighting a lonely battle to keep his campaign promise.

Instead of a 2,000-mile “big, beautiful wall”, Trump may emerge from Washington’s policy labyrinth with a fence covering a few hundred miles.

“He hasn’t made any progress other than to say ‘we’re going to do it’,” said Seth Stodder, a former senior homeland security official who focused on border security under the Obama and Bush administrations. “They’re pretty far away. I don’t think they’ve made much progress.”

The apparent crack in the promise of a wall will be about the only bright spot, from Mexico’s viewpoint, when President Enrique Peña Nieto and other officials meet Rex Tillerson, the secretary of state, and John Kelly, the head of homeland security, for talks in Mexico City on Wednesday and Thursday.

They face a fraught, urgent agenda spanning border security, immigration and trade.

The Trump administration unveiled two memos on Tuesday that broadened the ways in which federal immigration laws should be enforced, laying the groundwork for potentially millions of deportations to Mexico.

As a result, federal authorities could more aggressively detain undocumented immigrants, expand the pool of immigrants prioritised for removal, restrict asylum claims and send non-Mexican border crossers back to Mexico, rather than their country of origin.

Compared with that, uncertainty about the wall will seem relatively benign.

Last month Trump signed an executive order directing its construction to block drugs, criminals and terrorists. “Beginning today, the United States of America gets back control of its borders,” he told employees at the Department of Homeland Security’s headquarters in Washington.

At a press conference he repeated the pledge that a concrete barrier will arise along the desert bordering Mexico. “It’s a wall,” he told a reporter who termed it a fence. “You just misreported it. We’re going to build a wall.” He insisted Mexico will eventually pay for it.

Kelly, the homeland security chief, told Fox News that construction could begin within months and be completed within two years. “The wall will be built where it’s needed first and then it will be filled in.” His department issued a memo on Monday vowing to “begin planning, design, construction and maintenance of a wall”.

Officials have sought waivers to address environmental restrictions on building in some areas and spoken to contractors about buying steel.


Such confidence, however, seems built on uncertain foundations. Bureaucratic, budgetary and logistical forces may turn the wall mainly into a fence and truncate its length.

The administration has yet to present a plan, let alone a blueprint, to Congress. One reason is that key government agencies deem a wall too pricey, difficult and of limited value.


A preliminary internal report by US Customs and Border Protection leaked to Reuters envisages various construction phases over three years of what it terms a “fence” and “wall/fence”.

The report said the first phase would focus along stretches of California and Texas totalling 26 miles. The second would cover 151 miles in Arizona and Texas. The third phase would cover an unspecified 1,080 miles, linking the barriers coast-to-coast.

CNN cited unnamed insiders and experts who deemed the third phase a “fantasy” and not under serious consideration. It also quoted Border Patrol agents who grumbled that a wall would obstruct views of the other side and that security depended on personnel, surveillance equipment and speedy interception.

A Border Patrol agent who gave the Guardian a tour of the Nogales in Arizona – part of the nearly 700 miles which are already fenced – sidestepped opining about a wall, saying: “We have layers of defence.” He also cited traffickers’ ability to tunnel.

The leaked report envisaged a cost of as much as $21.6bn (£17bn) – far more than the $12bn cited by the president. He responded via Twitter saying once he got involved in design and negotiations the price would come “WAY DOWN!”

The emphasis was telling because the wall’s fate hinges largely on the price tag. Mexico has vowed to not pay a cent and there are doubts about raising funds through taxing imports or remittances. The Republican-controlled Congress is filled with budget hawks who want to shrink, not swell, spending.

Bernstein Research, an investment research group that tracks material costs, said uncertainties around the project could raise costs up to $25bn.

“The administration has all the legal authority it needs to construct more wall. And Trump personally wants a concrete wall,” said Stodder. Capitol Hill, however, could demolish it. “I have no confidence Congress will authorise $20bn to build a wall across the US given the current budgetary environment.”

Despite his ardour for concrete, Trump’s executive order left room for retreat by defining the wall as a “contiguous, physical wall or other similarly secure, contiguous, and impassable physical barrier”.

There are other impediments. Environmentalists are gearing up to defend desert habitats, saying the wall could threaten 111 endangered animal species. Campaigners are lobbying authorities in San Francisco and New York to boycott any companies that work on the barriers.

In places the soil, topography and climate are extremely hostile to a fence, let alone a wall. “Earth doesn’t forgive sloppy,” tweeted geologist Mika McKinnon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rder-wall-plan

[harrybarracuda]

[thaimeme]

If ya don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding.

How can you have any pudding, if ya don't eat yer meat?

[Cold Pizza]

Dude,

Another TRUMP thread!



CAN WE PUT ALL FUCKING TRUMP THREADS IN ONE FUCKING THREAD!!!


Fuck, you're stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cujo]

Dude,

Another TRUMP thread!



CAN WE PUT ALL FUCKING TRUMP THREADS IN ONE FUCKING THREAD!!!


Fuck, you're stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with that is discussion of one Trump related issue gets lost in a jumble of unrelated posts.
SSo do you think the wall will get built?

[Cold Pizza]

Dude,

Another TRUMP thread!



CAN WE PUT ALL FUCKING TRUMP THREADS IN ONE FUCKING THREAD!!!


Fuck, you're stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with that is discussion of one Trump related issue gets lost in a jumble of unrelated posts.
SSo do you think the wall will get built?

Obama and Hillary voted to build a wall in 2006.

Where were you then?


The wall is not gong to get built (unfortunately).

It never was going to happened.


Wake up.


Merge thread!!!!

[UrbanMan]

^ They'll build some wall. In addition to the existing portions of wall .. it seems to have gotten glossed over that there is already a fair bit of wall. The entire border? No way.

[wasabi]

Don't build the wall Donald, please Don't build the wall.
Just lay land mines along the border. Mine the badlands.

[jimbobs]

If he gives me a m2 rate I will bring a couple of squads over next week
Be done in a few months

[CaptainNemo]

You don't need to be a Trumpet to draw attention to bullshit:






Call Trump what you want, but don't pretend that the others didn't say the same thing.

[Cujo]

Call Trump what you want, but don't pretend that the others didn't say the same thing.

No one's pretending anything of the sort. Where did you get that idea.
The thing is Trump made it a cornerstone of his election campaign.
Personally I think it's going to be entertaining watching the progress f it getting built/not built..
If you don't then DON'T OPEN THE THREAD!
As for cold pizza, why merge the thread? Is there another one about the wall?

[Cold Pizza]

Dude,

Another TRUMP thread!



CAN WE PUT ALL FUCKING TRUMP THREADS IN ONE FUCKING THREAD!!!


Fuck, you're stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with that is discussion of one Trump related issue gets lost in a jumble of unrelated posts.
SSo do you think the wall will get built?

Fair enough, Cujo.

I change my tack, then.

I think the wall will get started.

Finished / completed? No.

[CaptainNemo]

Call Trump what you want, but don't pretend that the others didn't say the same thing.

No one's pretending anything of the sort. Where did you get that idea.
The thing is Trump made it a cornerstone of his election campaign.
Personally I think it's going to be entertaining watching the progress f it getting built/not built..
If you don't then DON'T OPEN THE THREAD!
As for cold pizza, why merge the thread? Is there another one about the wall?

You're right, though, that I genuinely (like many people) couldn't give a fuck about The US-Mexican garden hedge dispute. I do, however, reserve my 0th amendment right to troll threads wherever I spot trollbait.
You should rename the thread to something wittier and more descriptive really... I'm with CP on merging the Trump-fetishism into a single receptacle.

[terry57]

^

I recon Trump will and should build the Wall but start the fookin thing around Dog Faces House in China.

[Cujo]

BUt... BUT....... THE MEXICANS ARE PAYING!

Only $20m in existing funds found to pay for Mexico wall, document says.
Donald Trump’s promise to use existing funds to begin immediate construction of a wall on the US-Mexico border has hit a financial roadblock, according to a document seen by reuters.
The rapid start of construction, promised throughout Trump’s campaign and in an executive order issued in January on border security, was to be financed, according to the White House, with “existing funds and resources” of the Department of Homeland Security.

But so far, the DHS has identified only $20m that can be redirected to the multibillion-dollar project, according to a document prepared by the agency and distributed to congressional budget staff last week.

The document said the funds would be enough to cover a handful of contracts for wall prototypes, but not enough to begin construction of an actual barrier. This means that for the wall to move forward, the White House will need to convince Congress to appropriate funds.

An internal report, previously reported by Reuters, estimated that fully walling off or fencing the entire southern border would cost $21.6bn – $9.3m per mile of fence and $17.8m per mile of wall.

DHS officials did not respond to a request for comment on this story.

Trump has said he will ask Congress to pay for what existing funds cannot cover and that Mexico will be pressured to pay back US taxpayers at a later date.

Republican House speaker Paul Ryan has said he will include funding for a border wall in the budget for the next fiscal year. He has estimated the cost to be between $12bn and $15bn.

Many Republican lawmakers have said they would vote against a plan that does not offset the cost of the wall with spending cuts.

In the document it submitted to Congress, the DHS said it would reallocate $5m from a fence project in Naco, Arizona, that came in under budget and $15m from a project to install cameras on top of trucks at the border.

The surveillance project was awarded to Virginia-based Tactical Micro but was held up due to protests from other contractors, according to the DHS document. Tactical Micro could not be reached for comment.

The DHS only searched for extra funds within its $376m budget for border security fencing, infrastructure and technology, so it would not have to ask for congressional approval to repurpose funding, according to the document.

Contractors cannot begin bidding to develop prototypes until 6 March but more than 265 businesses already have listed themselves as “interested parties” on a government web site.

Those interested range from small businesses to large government contractors such as Raytheon.

Oh dear.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...administration

[raycarey]

So do you think the wall will get built?

something will be put up on part of the border, but it won't be anything like what he sold the rubes....and the idea that mexico is going to pay for it is ridiculous.

[thaimeme]

Always in search of a boogieman/enemy.
One's existence needs such fodder to thrive.

[Cujo]

Ten percent of the companies interested in bidding for the first stage of the construction of Donald Trump’s border wall with Mexico are Hispanic-owned businesses, as construction firms wrestle with the morality of profiting from the controversial infrastructure project.

More than 600 businesses have formally registered interest since 24 February, when the Department of Homeland Security issued a presolicitation notice for contractors to perform the “design and build of several prototype wall structures” for the border.


Pope Francis appears to criticize Trump's Mexico border wall plan
Read more
A Guardian review of the companies reveals that 62 are “Hispanic American Owned” businesses.

“I think the wall is a waste of time and money,” said Patrick Balcazar, the owner of San Diego Project Management, PSC, a design-build construction firm in Puerto Rico that is listed as one of the Hispanic companies involved.

“For environmental reasons, it’s dumb. From an economic point of view, it’s dumb.” But, he added, “I defend your right to be stupid. If you want to put up a wall, I’m going to put up the best wall I can and I’m going to pay my people.”

The presolicitation notice, which provides few details beyond asking for 30ft tall “concrete wall structures”, is the first step toward fulfilling Trump’s campaign promise of building a “great, great wall on our southern border” to keep out Mexican immigrants, whom he has characterized as criminals and “rapists”.

During his first week in office, the president signed an executive order to move ahead with “existing funds and resources” to start construction, which he once promised would be paid for by the Mexican government. Only about $20m in funds currently exist, according to documents reviewed by Reuters. That amount would cover about one to two miles of the 1,000-mile, $21bn project.

President Trump announces ‘immediate’ construction of Mexico border wall
The wall has been consistently opposed by Mexico, Mexican Americans, and the majority of the American population.

That irony is not lost on Balcazar and some of the other Hispanic businesses bidding for the construction project. “The story isn’t, ‘Hey there’s a Latino guy building a wall to keep other Latino people out,” said Michael Evangelista-Ysasaga, CEO of the Penna Group in Fort Worth, Texas. “It’s that we need comprehensive immigration reform.”

Opponents of the wall contend that it is an ineffective way to police the border and object to the xenophobic and anti-Mexican tenor of Trump’s campaign. A February 2017 poll by Pew Research Center found that 62% of Americans opposed the project, with especially high opposition (83%) from Hispanics.

But where some see a racist and ineffective boondoggle, others see dollar signs. “We’re not into politics. We’re not left or right. We’re a construction company and that’s how we survive,” said Jorge Diaz, who manages De la Fuente Construction, Inc. “We don’t see it as politics. We just see it as work.”

De la Fuente’s Construction’s website makes note of Diaz’s cross-border experience, saying that he was born in San Diego but went to elementary and high school in Mexico before returning to the US for college, and that he has managed construction projects in both countries.

But Diaz was not interested in discussing the political or personal implications of constructing a giant symbol of division between the two countries. “I’m nobody to judge that,” he said.

Frank Meza, the general manager of Tabeza Holdings, which specializes in federal construction contracts, said that although he is an immigrant himself, he has no concerns about bidding for the wall.

“As a former veteran, I think it’s important to support our president, as long as it’s within the guidelines of the law,” he said. Meza said that he supports a “strong defense of our country”, though he was not persuaded that “it’s going to be as useful as many people think it’s going to be”.

The temptation of getting a piece of a $21bn project could end up dividing more than just the US and Mexico, but also Latino communities on the same side of the wall. The wall is vehemently opposed by most Latino and immigrant rights organizations. The United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and the Arizona Hispanic Chamber of Commerce opposed the wall during the campaign, arguing that it would disrupt important trade relations between the two countries unnecessarily.


“These Hispanic owners are established. They’re looking out for their interests,” said Margarito Blancos, an immigrant rights activist in Arizona. Getting involved in building the wall, he said, “deepens the divide between those that are already here and those that are looking for a better life”.

For Evangelista-Ysasaga, whose workers are about 80% Mexican American, deciding to bid for the wall required some “soul searching”.

“We wanted to make sure that a company that had compassion for immigrants was one of the companies putting in one of the designs,” he said, adding that he had heard other contractors discuss “nefarious, inhumane designs” for the wall, such as lethal electricity or landmines.

The CEO, who said that he was one of the earliest participants in Occupy Wall Street in New York City, hoped that the wall would “give the American people the appetite to have comprehensive immigration reform”, which is his main priority.

As for Balcazar, his interest in the wall is strictly tied to the struggles of Puerto Rico, where work is scarce amid an economic crisis. “It’s like this,” he said. “Lady Gaga, she wears some pretty wild stuff on stage … But when she goes to her tailor and asks for it, they’re not going to say, ‘That looks terrible.’”

Ultimately, Balcazar thinks both Mexico and the United States should focus more on economic development than policing the border. “My goal is to build a wall so I can make enough money so we can turn this thing around and tear down the wall again.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...tion-companies

[Maanaam]

You don't need to be a Trumpet to draw attention to bullshit:






Call Trump what you want, but don't pretend that the others didn't say the same thing.

Rubbish deflective spin.
Hilary said "physical barriers in some places", Bill didn't mention a wall at all, and Obama spoke of funding for better fences.
Trump however, promised a big, beautiful wall, made of concrete, along the entire border. One time he said the wall will be higher than the ceiling in an 80 foot ceilinged room .
Stupid fool had no idea of the budget, logistics, or other practicalities of such an immense project. It was an oft-repeated promise, and one that will be broken....because he is a populist fool with an over-sized ego.

[BaitongBoy]

China has a pretty solid wall...Hard to compete with that...No Mexican problem, there...Heh...

[brisie]

If Temp honestly believed that there's going to be a wall he would of already set up canned spray paint shops along the border. How much money would you make selling it and having another company cleaning it up?