New crisis in Europes

**pseudolus** · 21-08-2015, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by billy the kid

How many are going to Russia.
Have they offered to take any ?

90% of all Ukranians fleeing the US induced civil war there are going to Russia.

**bsnub** · 21-08-2015, 04:10 PM

^ Moron.

**HermantheGerman** · 21-08-2015, 04:14 PM

^ agree

**CaptainNemo** · 22-08-2015, 04:16 AM

^
^^
I believe pseudolus might be referring to this:
Thousands of Ukrainian Refugees Flee to Russia for an Uncertain Future - WSJ

**CaptainNemo** · 22-08-2015, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

The answer is neo-colonialism - fix the source countries; make them better.

Who pays?

Most of these immigrants are economic migrants.

If they are economic migrants, then help them build an economy... and take a percentage... they pay. That's what the Americans did to western Europe since WW2.

What's the alternative... China creeps in to seize all the resources and prop up shitty regimes, and keeps the arms trade going; and Europe gets mass exodus of people from around the world, with men, women, and children drowing unnecessarily in the seas around, all for want of a pair of balls to stride into the cesspits of the world, fix them up and bring them in.

This is not about arrogance, but about vision. None of our leaders have balls or vision. "Oh it's not that simple!" they bemoan - make it simple, I say.

**Takeovers** · 22-08-2015, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

If they are economic migrants, then help them build an economy... and take a percentage... they pay. That's what the Americans did to western Europe since WW2.

There is a problem with that. The people in control in all of these countries are profiting from chaos and poverty. They don't want to build a better life for their people. The time where we could get in and change that are past.

Those people may be economic migrants. But they are desperate enough to chose a journey that they know they may not survive. Pregnant women go to give a better life for their child or die trying. The only way to stop this flood would be to throw them into the sea and let everybody know about it. We really don't have the stomach to do that.

**KEVIN2008** · 22-08-2015, 05:08 AM

When France and Britain air striked Libya with the US “leading from behind” they were indirectly responsible for opening the floodgates of migrants to Europe

When David Cameron recently said that they needed to address the issue “across the board” I didn’t hear him go on to say “let’s admit our interference has been central towards causing this very problem”...

Africa is an entire continent where corruption and bribery has been rampant and encouraged by states outside of Africa which have benefited from the pillaging of natural resources. So much available and none of it gets to the people who are starving, living squalid lives right next to oil refineries.... Is it any wonder there is such a migration problem?...

Unfortunately, maybe the result to vast inflows like we are seeing in Europe will be a dismantling of the Social Welfare state in each country..

**CaptainNemo** · 22-08-2015, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

If they are economic migrants, then help them build an economy... and take a percentage... they pay. That's what the Americans did to western Europe since WW2.

There is a problem with that. The people in control in all of these countries are profiting from chaos and poverty. They don't want to build a better life for their people. The time where we could get in and change that are past.

Those people may be economic migrants. But they are desperate enough to chose a journey that they know they may not survive. Pregnant women go to give a better life for their child or die trying. The only way to stop this flood would be to throw them into the sea and let everybody know about it. We really don't have the stomach to do that.

"We"?

It's not just the gangsters in control of these gangster states, but the arms industries and the governments of fascist states like China, who are happy to prop up nasty regimes to get resources to build factories that make socks that you buy at ASDA. Yes... we as consumers are responsible... you can't wriggle out of the global economic system and keep your hands clean saying "nowt to do wi me", and then decry hawkish solutions as somehow impractical or immoral.

The only way to stop the flood is to go to the source and take over those countries and fix them. That much is obvious.
I've met, and even worked with, migrants who've sneaked in, and heard their stories. They come from disgusting shitholes, yes; they come for prosperity, yes; but every time you buy the story each one sells, you are undermining the hope for their fellows in the future: their chances of making it to shangrila, and the quality of that shangrila when they get here - all due to mounting resentment and opposition in the host population. Aristotle had something to say about this, so it's not a new thing.

The idea that the only option is to throw people into the sea is twaddle. You're suggesting we throw our hands up and say, OK, all 9,000,000,000 of you can come in. You can't say yes to one, and no to another.
If you throw away the rulebook, you are undermining the very thing people flee to - a reliable system of rules; and you undermine the very definition of a country.

Rules need to be brought to the rest of the world - it's a moral duty, like healthcare and literacy and liberty.

Originally Posted by KEVIN2008

When France and Britain air striked Libya with the US “leading from behind” they were indirectly responsible for opening the floodgates of migrants to Europe

When David Cameron recently said that they needed to address the issue “across the board” I didn’t hear him go on to say “let’s admit our interference has been central towards causing this very problem”...

Africa is an entire continent where corruption and bribery has been rampant and encouraged by states outside of Africa which have benefited from the pillaging of natural resources. So much available and none of it gets to the people who are starving, living squalid lives right next to oil refineries.... Is it any wonder there is such a migration problem?...

Unfortunately, maybe the result to vast inflows like we are seeing in Europe will be a dismantling of the Social Welfare state in each country..

You're right in as much as they didn't finish the job.
Finishing the job means taking over the country, and rebuilding it, and integrating it into the world economy.
I was depressed when they just effectively did a fire and forget project on Libya.
Utterly unimpressed by the lack of grip, clue, balls, and vision from the likes of Cameron and Obama.

It is not the interference that is the problem - it's the lack of interference - if you're going to interfere, do it properly - take over the whole damn show, and enforce the law. Do not go in half-hearted... that's where the problems all stemmed from... not finishing the job in all these countries.
They chicken out because of security council veto threats, but really, we live in a unipolar world, and allowing fascist states to call the shots and maintain the arms industry is a cont's trick.

**Bettyboo** · 22-08-2015, 10:38 AM

^ this does rather read like satire, CN (when contextualized within what we have done and continue to do).

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

the governments of fascist states like China, who are happy to prop up nasty regimes

I can't see how China cause a fraction of the problems (say over the last 500 years) that the UK and US have.

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

The only way to stop the flood is to go to the source and take over those countries and fix them.

That's what we have been doing for hundreds of years. Great Britain have invaded 80% of the countries in the world (even the Yermins would be proud of that feat) and it hasn't worked out too well...

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

Rules need to be brought to the rest of the world - it's a moral duty

Let's have a look at how are leaders and our institutions (and we) have behaved over recent decades (or hundreds of years; either timeframe paints a shameful picture), and see what our 'morals' have lead to. For example, the 'moral' stance taken by our great leader Blair, how well has that worked out for us? WE know, financially, it has worked out very very well for him. &, our great legal institutions and their 'moral' foundation seems to have rather swallowed up legal attempts to adhere to British, European and International law... How are we getting on with bringing the Israelis to adhering to international law? Never mind, let's bomb the Syrians, errm, Iranians, errm, Iraqis, errm, Libyans, errm anybody that our Saudi and Israeli friends pay enough money for our great moral leaders to bomb. Not relevant, some might suggest, well where are these refugees coming from and how do they get here? How much money have we spent on these bombs to cause this when 10% of that money would have solved so many of the poverty problems at source???

The reality is, the problem is, our totally corrupt leaders: the bankers in London, the oil barons over in the US and the federlaistas in the Motherland, among others.

**klong toey** · 23-08-2015, 02:18 PM

Get in any old boat 50 yards off shore make a phone call.
Italian Navy In Mass Migrant Rescue Off Libya.

The alarm was raised after the navy apparently received distress calls from 18 crowded vessels carrying up to 3,000 migrants.

The Italian navy has said it is co-ordinating the rescue of up to 3,000 migrants in waters off the Libyan coast.

The alarm was raised after it apparently received distress calls from 18 crowded vessels.

More than 430 people have been rescued so far, according to Italian media reports.

Between 2,000 and 3,000 migrants were estimated to have been on 14 rubber dinghies and four other vessels.

The rescue operation involves at least seven boats - six Italian and one from Norway.

Italian Navy In Mass Migrant Rescue Off Libya

**klong toey** · 23-08-2015, 02:22 PM

Been a busy weekend.
Thousands Of Migrants Storm Past Police Lines.

Several thousand people - many fleeing wars in Syria and Iraq - storm past barbed wire fences and into the Balkan country.

Thousands of migrants and refugees have broken through police lines on Macedonia's southern border.

Officers threw stun grenades at the crowd, but were unable to contain them.

Several thousand people - many fleeing war-torn countries such as Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan - ran past barbed wire fences and into fields in the Balkan country.

The chaos started when police allowed a small group of migrants with young children to cross the border from Greece.

Crowds at the back pushed forward in an attempt to get through. Several people were injured in the crush.
Thousands Of Migrants Storm Past Police Lines

**HermantheGerman** · 23-08-2015, 02:33 PM

German/Europe politicians clueless, a ticking time bomb

Italy coastguard: 3,000 migrants rescued in one day in Mediterranean

Huge group of migrants crosses border into Macedonia

More than 1,500 migrants who had been trapped at the Macedonian border for three days have managed to enter the country from Greece. Police ended up letting all of the migrants in after initial attempts to stop them.

Germany condemns violent anti-refugee protest in Heidenau

The German government has condemned the violence that broke out ahead of the arrival of asylum seekers at a temporary shelter in the east of the country. Several people were injured in scuffles with police.

**CaptainNemo** · 23-08-2015, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^ this does rather read like satire, CN (when contextualized within what we have done and continue to do).

Only if you have tunnel vision; or a lack of vision.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

the governments of fascist states like China, who are happy to prop up nasty regimes

I can't see how China cause a fraction of the problems (say over the last 500 years) that the UK and US have.

I'm not talking about the last 500 years; I'm talking about now.
Pax Britannica has matured to the point where it would be superior to the suzereinty of most other nations, and certainly superior to most local gangster governments in the developing world. People given a choice, choose it.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

The only way to stop the flood is to go to the source and take over those countries and fix them.

That's what we have been doing for hundreds of years. Great Britain have invaded 80% of the countries in the world (even the Yermins would be proud of that feat) and it hasn't worked out too well...

It's decolonisation that hasn't worked too well. Most of the worst conflicts have happened post Empire, and are fought over ideology not economics.
We ran the biggest and most successful organised crime network ever, but it was primarily an economic endeavour, which it never really was for rivals. The fact that most migrants make a beeline for Britain, the Low Countries, Germany, and Scandinavia tells you enough - that they want the system and culture that comes from there, and it makes sense to offer it. You can't offer it to a group of gangsters running a country, so "invasion" of one kind or another makes sense; otherwise we will be invaded by those trying to flee.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Originally Posted by CaptainNemo

Rules need to be brought to the rest of the world - it's a moral duty

Let's have a look at how are leaders and our institutions (and we) have behaved over recent decades (or hundreds of years; either timeframe paints a shameful picture), and see what our 'morals' have lead to. For example, the 'moral' stance taken by our great leader Blair, how well has that worked out for us? WE know, financially, it has worked out very very well for him. &, our great legal institutions and their 'moral' foundation seems to have rather swallowed up legal attempts to adhere to British, European and International law... How are we getting on with bringing the Israelis to adhering to international law? Never mind, let's bomb the Syrians, errm, Iranians, errm, Iraqis, errm, Libyans, errm anybody that our Saudi and Israeli friends pay enough money for our great moral leaders to bomb. Not relevant, some might suggest, well where are these refugees coming from and how do they get here? How much money have we spent on these bombs to cause this when 10% of that money would have solved so many of the poverty problems at source???

The reality is, the problem is, our totally corrupt leaders: the bankers in London, the oil barons over in the US and the federlaistas in the Motherland, among others.

I don't accept your premisses of:
a. referring to centuries ago; or decades ago; I'm talking about now
b. conflating the USA with the UK; they are not the same; "we"?!

You know that the Cold War period is a distinct period of history, as are all those before it. You know that it makes absolutely no sense to make a broad brush sweeping argument that the Black Hole of Calcutta has anything to do with how we would operate now. You know that we do not "bomb <ethnicity>", we attempt to take out hostile forces. You make these lazy disingenuous inferences because you are closed to even discussing an alternative to the status quo.
Your starting point, I imagine, is that everything is the fault of elites, and we must abandon all border controls and take in the millions or billions of people who want a better life (and that somehow it won't destroy the very thing they flee to get - those streets paved with gold will be worn away to mud by all those huddled masses, if they don't dig up the streets and nick the cobbles first!).

You are Jeremy Corbyn, and I claim my £5. (satire, indeed... irony more like!).

The idea that we give up because previous people have failed for one reason or another is a pathetic, pessimistic, and pointless case to make.

We do at least agree that corruption is a major component of the problem; and that we must fix the current migration crisis at source.
I would do it by abandoning the UN, and overtly building an Empire of democracy, freedom, and prosperity, and of soft power. Encouraging the locals to revolt and join. The EU has attempted this in Ukraine, but the EU is corrupt and undemocratic, so it has failed. The EU offers not enough to not enough to win that coup. Europeans are crap at imperialism; but Britain is not European, we do Empire the best.

Though I concede, I don't think British democracy is the best - I prefer the Swiss system - and I hope we head towards that kind of model.

**Horatio Hornblower** · 23-08-2015, 03:28 PM

Pretty amazing this mass exodus,considering Gaddafi warned the west along time ago about this.

This problem hasn't even started yet, whilst having compassion for many of these people, I'm sure we all realise the imminent threat it could well escalate to something we ain't prepared for.

The European govts have made their own problems,now joe blow has to take the consequences.

**Boon Mee** · 23-08-2015, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

The only way this can be fixed is by forced repatriation. They must be sent back.

That's right and The Donald has the plan.

**HermantheGerman** · 23-08-2015, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by bsnub

The only way this can be fixed is by forced repatriation. They must be sent back.

That's right and The Donald has the plan.

You mean we have to rebuild the Berlin wall

**Boon Mee** · 23-08-2015, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by bsnub

The only way this can be fixed is by forced repatriation. They must be sent back.

That's right and The Donald has the plan.

You mean we have to rebuild the Berlin wall

Believe The Donald has something in mind like what Israel has built to keep out the terror-mongers. Only in this case, the wall to protect American jobs.

**klong toey** · 26-08-2015, 07:18 PM

Migrants crisis: Germany's Merkel booed at Heidenau centre.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been booed during a visit to a shelter for asylum seekers which was the focus of clashes at the weekend.
Far-right protesters shouted "traitor" as she arrived at the newly-opened centre in Heidenau.
Germany has seen a sharp rise in attacks on asylum centres, as it deals with record numbers of arrivals.
Earlier, police in Hungary used tear gas to disperse migrants protesting at a reception camp on the Serbian border.

Germany expects up to 800,000 asylum applications in 2015 - more than any other EU country.

Migrants crisis: Germany's Merkel booed at Heidenau centre - BBC News

**harrybarracuda** · 26-08-2015, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Only in this case, the wall to protect American jobs.

Like fruit picking, toilet cleaning......

**Exit Strategy** · 26-08-2015, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

fuk me, we should have let the French and Ruskies tear you arrogant fukers into shreds as they wanted too

Churchill was drinking too much - which is understandable - and Roosevelt had dementia. So europe was given away to foks like Russians and French.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

(I'm quite enjoying this anti-Germany stance I've found recently...

I prefer techno trance very loud but I get your point. Scooter!

**klong toey** · 27-08-2015, 06:06 PM

Up To 50 Refugees Found Dead In Lorry.

The bodies of up to 50 refugees have been found in the back of a lorry in Austria,

it has been reported.
More follows...
Up To 50 Refugees Found Dead In Lorry

The bodies of up to 50 refugees have been found in the back of a lorry in Austria, it has been reported.
The vehicle was discovered on the hard shoulder of the A4 highway, close to Parndorf, about 50 km (28 miles) southeast of the capital Vienna and about 25km (16 miles) from the Hungarian and Slovak borders, according to Krone newspaper.
It is understood they were trapped in the trailer and had suffocated after being unable to get out.
The van had been seen stationary by staff at a nearby service station and when it failed to move for some time, they called the police.
The driver is believed to have fled the scene and is currently being sought by police.
At a press conference in Eisenstadt, Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner said it demonstrated "the despicable methods used by Mafia traffickers in all their ugliness in Austria".
"Today is a dark day," she added and vowed there would be zero tolerance shown towards any that were caught.
"These people belong behind bars!" she said. "These Mafia traffickers must know that they cannot feel safe in Austria."
The interior ministry confirmed there had been between 20 and 50 deaths.
A picture of the lorry was shown on the website of the Krone. It appeared to have writing on the side in the Slovakian language.

http://news.sky.com/story/1542601/up...cated-in-lorry

**Exit Strategy** · 27-08-2015, 08:56 PM

Very sad. There isn't much of American Dream left in Europe. Austria being one of the good countries in euro. Now Skyfall

**HermantheGerman** · 10-09-2015, 06:43 PM

Dirty swines !

Saudi Arabia accepts no refugees from countries affected by civil war, and none at all from Syria. Instead, the Lebanese newspaper al Diyar reports that Saudi Arabia is offering to construct 200 mosques for the Muslim refugees being accepted in Germany.

**bsnub** · 10-09-2015, 07:10 PM

^ fuck that but the Germans will lay down and passively take it up the ass.

**chassamui** · 10-09-2015, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Neo

Human migration is as old as time, it is inexorable.

It is and not all in the same direction.
From 1815 to 1932, 60 million people left Europe. As a result, on the eve of World War One, 38% of the world’s total population was of European ancestry.

Over time, the movement of populations is perfectly normal and natural. When the nimby's understand that, it becomes easier to deal with it.

Mass rapid migrations are difficult for all concerned. Just try to understand the reasons behind it and make the experience a positive one, instead of imagining the worst possible scenario in every case.

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