Thread: When will Pakistan or Musharraf fall ?

Originally Posted by sabang

Our foreign policy is contributing to the problems, not solving them in any way.

US foreign policy is imperfect. But it is bringing the situation to head which had to happen sometime since there is little hope pandering and placating Islamic will ever bring about any lasting peace.
Iraq is causing Iran and Syria to show their hand in their hate mongering festival.
The problem will be solved. Unfortunately until we have the belly to confront Iran it wont be.
All we need to do is send the our apologies:


Take out the training camps for insurgents, bomb their one refinery, and move in a serious naval blockage of their ports.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Also someone who subsidized Palestinian suicide bombers deserved to be hung.

What about the ones who made Israel by snatching land form Palestinians??

and the ones who invaded Iraq on a pack of lies?

Originally Posted by machangezi

Well Iran and Syria are forced to. This should not be an issue because whenever American interests are in danger they do the same thing often worse like regime changes, assasinations, Invasion etc etc. Syria and Iran dont want Uncle Sam on their asses.

Then they should quit feeding the insurgency in Iraq.

Why Confront?? Why is confrontation on the table as a first option when American foreign policy makers respond to every problem in the international community which threatens American Interests??

The US retreated in Lebanon. This lead to 9/11/01

Why not get rid of the Gringo attitude??

Why don't muslims denounce Wahhabism?

It's too late to find a fully satisfying solution for Iraq. The Bush administration should have thinked twice before invading.

Hindsight is always 20/20!

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Also someone who subsidized Palestinian suicide bombers deserved to be hung.

What about the ones who made Israel by snatching land form Palestinians??

This begs the question: Prior to the creation of Israel did a nation of Palestine exist?
NO! and for that matter a nation of Palestine never existed. So who are these so called "Palestinians"? They were just a bunch of mud hut living squatters in a barren neglected corner of the Ottoman Empire before Zionist pioneers created an economy in the area.

Just a quick look at recent activities in the Gaza confirms the "Palestinians" incompetence to be self governing. Sharon made a huge mistake handing over the Gaza.

Yes Earl, a nation of Palestine existed, a nation state of Palestine did not.
Wiki- "The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity."

"Most theories see the nation-state as a 19th-century European phenomenon, facilitated by developments such as mass literacy and the early mass media.
In Europe, in the eighteenth century, the classic non-national states were the multi-ethnic empires, (the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire),"

Nation-state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can search a couple of Palestine threads in Issues to learn a little more about pre Zionist Palestine, including it's trade with Europe and the ethnicity of the Pali's. You can also search the Finkelstein thread to find the reason for many Americans belief that 'there was no Palestine'- it was from a book that was proven to be a fraud.

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

Then they should quit feeding the insurgency in Iraq.

and submit to almighty America's will?? Suppose and I strictly mean suppose Iran invades Canada. Would uncle Sam be happy about that??

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

The US retreated in Lebanon. This lead to 9/11/01

No No. America's policy of exploiting developing countries lead to 9/11. I think it's time for all of us to get on with 9/11.
How many died that day?? 3000, 4000 compared to the numbers killed by America before 9/11 and after 9/11 it has no significance for me.

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

Why don't muslims denounce Wahhabism?

Muslims denounce Terrorism, extremism and many other things that are against the law. Wahabism is denounced by both Shia's and Sunnis ( two of the biggest sects in Islam) but Uncle Sam is the biggest supporter of Wahabism in the world.

which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and which derives its legitimacy from that function

A nation-state does not exist because there is no Nation to support it's legitimacy.
Ergo there is no nation of Palestine, never has been, and the way they are going never will be.
Jewish settlement of the area harks back to the times of King David and his son Solomon. Centuries before Mohammed was even born.
I can find no historical precedent of a Palestinian nation. Yet there is loads of history involving the jews. WTF!
Wanna wipe out Israel?
Seems to me the land was re-conquered from the Muslim arabs fair and square.

So who's supporting Wahabism?

umm..does Saudi Arabia ring a bell? ummm..Seem like Pakistan has their fair share of muslim fanatics. Pardon me if I'm unable to distinguish one fanatical sect of Islam from another.
To me a murderous fanatic is a murderous fanatic regardless of the what sectarian hairs one might wish to split.

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

To me a murderous fanatic is a murderous fanatic regardless of the what sectarian hairs one might wish to split.

Regardless of what?

Did you post this (see below)?

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

Why don't muslims denounce Wahhabism?

Yes Saudi does ring a bell. Who's supporting Saudi eh? Pakistan? Anyone who has a lil knowledge would say the US of fucking America. That's why I don't pity when Americans get slaughtered. What you sow so shall you reap sort of shit bro.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and which derives its legitimacy from that function

A nation-state does not exist because there is no Nation to support it's legitimacy.
Ergo there is no nation of Palestine, never has been, and the way they are going never will be.
Jewish settlement of the area harks back to the times of King David and his son Solomon. Centuries before Mohammed was even born.
I can find no historical precedent of a Palestinian nation. Yet there is loads of history involving the jews. WTF!
Wanna wipe out Israel?
Seems to me the land was re-conquered from the Muslim arabs fair and square.

You have chosen to ignore facts as quoted and acknowledged in my Post above, and then come up with your own half arsed definition of what constitutes a nation.

You have chosen to ignore the fact that the Palestinian continous inhabitance of Palestine is one of the longest in human history, and give precedence to the expelled Jews- who were not the original inhabitants.

The original inhabitants were the Canaanites, from whom the Palestinians partially derive their ethnicity (and most likely the Joos too). However the Pali's, according to themselves, derive more of their ethicity from the Philistines/ Phoenicians.

Israelites, Samaritans and Philistines inhabited what is now Israel & Palestine during biblical times. Tha Assyrians came down and raped the women on a regular basis, as did the Babylonians and the Egyptians later.

The Jews were actually exiled from Judea (a part of Israel) three times, not one. By the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the Romans. The land of the Jews was only a part of what is now Israel. They were never promised the land of Samaria and what is now the northern part of Israel in the Bible anyway, if you choose to believe the 'Promised Land' stuff. The Zionist claim is based on exaggerated historical nonsense, combined with the basest misrepresentation of the Bible for self serving ends. Yet people are not in the main calling for a fourth expulsion of the Israelites- they are saying get the fuk out of Occupied Palestine.
So who is being unreasonable??

You choose to believe a book that has been proven to be an absolute fraud. Even informed Zionists no longer refer to it- it long ago was dropped as an embarassment. But it served it's devious propaganda purpose, at least in the US (remember you pay billions every year for this). Yet you can still buy the book widely in the USA, while the book that proved it a fraud is hard to come by.

And then you wonder why your version of 'Truth, freedom and Democracy' is losing the rest of the world at an alarming pace. The basic answers are above, if you care to reread. But you have already shown that you are not interested. You prefer to stick to the comfort zone of your own internalised Lies.

So read this, it will make you feel good, maybe even justified- Joan Peters- 'From Time Immemorial'. That states what you want to believe, and you will cling to it's lies as hysterically as a Mormon clings to his beliefs. Thats the way of the world. Kinda makes me understand why some people believe they'll get their 50 Virgins in Heaven for blowing themselves up- it is no more absurd than the lies you stubbornly cling to. Such is the Human Race.

Originally Posted by Sabang

Thats the way of the world. Kinda makes me understand why some people believe they'll get their 50 Virgins in Heaven for blowing themselves up- it is no more absurd than the lies you stubbornly cling to. Such is the Human Race.

Agreed. Anyway most of the fucks who blow themselves are brainwashed since their childhood, they are uneducated, they haven't seen the civilised world but one cant say the same about the westerners. They are almost all educated.

Wahahbism is a bit out there religiously speaking, and I don't blame them Merkins for that.
Saudi oil is the reason for the US/Saudi alliance, plain and simple. Aramco. The Saud's are sitting on a time bomb imo, but as long as the oil flows the US can live with it.
Historically speaking, us Christians have been far more violent than those fanatical ragheads. Like, far far more.

Originally Posted by sabang

You have chosen to ignore facts as quoted and acknowledged in my Post above, and then come up with your own half arsed definition of what constitutes a nation.

I only saw some half assed wiki reference to word definitions which didn't give diddly squat to your assessment that a nation of Palestine has ever existed. Palestinians have always been subjugated by someone.
Obscure Philistine ancestral references which are 4000 years old carry little precedent I think.

You seem to choose to ignore the obvious. Arab aggression is what created the Nation of Israel. Current borders of Israel are a direct result of war Egypt waged against Israel.
If the Arab Palestinian were smart they would accept Israel and settle their differences sportingly.
But they don't because this whole Palestinian cause appears to be just a pretense for the annihilation of all western infidels.
Sabang you need to wake up.

Originally Posted by sabang

Wahahbism is a bit out there religiously speaking, and I don't blame them Merkins for that.
Saudi oil is the reason for the US/Saudi alliance, plain and simple. Aramco. The Saud's are sitting on a time bomb imo, but as long as the oil flows the US can live with it.
Historically speaking, us Christians have been far more violent than those fanatical ragheads. Like, far far more.

I don't see the USA trying to annihilate Islam.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and the Islamists had intercontinental ballistic nukes would they hesitate to use them?

^ Na, you got me slightly wrong there.
The Time Bomb the Saud's (a family) are sitting on is the rising undercurrent of disgruntlement from their own people. They have not delivered, yet enriched themselves obscenely. At least Saddam enriched his people.
What will bring them down is likely revolution, not invasion. The US would only invade to preserve it's energy supplies.
Did I put it better this time?

The US is funding terrorism by supporting financially the SA family, one of the leading source of Islamic terrorism

[quote=Mr Earl;341499I don't see the USA trying to annihilate Islam.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and the Islamists had intercontinental ballistic nukes would they hesitate to use them?[/quote]
If the islamists had the nukes, tech and money, and the xtians had the oil, I daresay the status quo would not be so much different as it is now, except the xtians would be the 'terrorists', the threat to civilised values, and the islamists would be spreading godliness and freedom all around the globe with their cluster bombs, banks and multinational corporations, backed up with the threat of their nukes.
You cannot really make markets or money on nuclear wasteland.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I don't see the USA trying to annihilate Islam.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and the Islamists had intercontinental ballistic nukes would they hesitate to use them?

If the islamists had the nukes, tech and money, and the xtians had the oil, I daresay the status quo would not be so much different as it is now, except the xtians would be the 'terrorists', the threat to civilised values, and the islamists would be spreading godliness and freedom all around the globe with their cluster bombs, banks and multinational corporations, backed up with the threat of their nukes.
You cannot really make markets or money on nuclear wasteland.

I'm not so sure. I think xtian tradition is bit more forgiving.
The only exception which comes to mind would be Ireland. But even the Irish weren't suicidally driven.
Murderous violence seems to be the tradition of Islam. (note the prevalence of the sword in their symbology)(the AK47 seems to have replaced the sword as symbol of power lately)
It is marked difference from the symbol of Jesus nailed to the cross.
If Islam wants to show that they are religion of peace they have a lot of explaining to do!

You certainly don't see orthodox xtians carrying out murderous rampages.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

To me a murderous fanatic is a murderous fanatic regardless of the what sectarian hairs one might wish to split.

Regardless of what?

Did you post this (see below)?

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

Why don't muslims denounce Wahhabism?

Yes Saudi does ring a bell. Who's supporting Saudi eh? Pakistan? Anyone who has a lil knowledge would say the US of fucking America. That's why I don't pity when Americans get slaughtered. What you sow so shall you reap sort of shit bro.

So let me get this straight.
1. US companies help develop and support Saudi oil wealth.
2. Saudi Arabia reaps the benefits of selling oil to the USA.
3. Saudi Arabia breeds and finances Islamist fanatics.
4. It is all the US of fucking Americas fault.
Did I get that right?
Could you explain to me how in the fuck the USA is responsible for Islamicists?

Is because we insist on living a life which differs from fundamentalist Islam.

Is is because we are simple minded infidels who refuse to die?
How is the US responsible for a religion which has professed violence and conquest for 12 centuries or so. The USA is only 200+ years old last time I checked.

The US is responsible cos:

1. They ain't saying nothing to the Saudis. We hear people being beheaded in public almost every month. Why the US ain't doing anything? The US is very much concerened about world democracy. Is there any democracy in S. Arabia?

2. The US is travelling thousands of miles to hunt terrorists/extremists. Iraq and Afghanistan are examples. Why not go to the grossroot level and solve it once and for all? Saudi has been funding extremist organisations in Pakistan! Lashker e Jahngvi, Sipah e Sahaba, Jais e Islam are a few examples. They are all Wahabis.

3. Wahabism is resopnsible for all the fuck ups that's happening in the world today. Saudi is the only Wahabi state in the face of earth. Why is the US of fucking American doing nothing about it?

The list goes on but I think this is enough for now.

Answer to your second question:

Islam cleary states that everyone has freedom to choose. Here's a quot from the Quran "let there be no compulsion in religion".

Simple minded infidels who refuse to die?

In my whole live I have never come across any teaching of Islam that says go and die. Dying for a great cause such as defending your motherland is justified. I think the Merikans are doing the same. NO?

The US is responsible in way that its foreign policy is entirely fucked up. They only consider their own interest. They want to achieve their goals by any means without any concern about others.

Now somebody tell Butcher that Saudi ain't a real democracy. Pakland ain't a democracy at all. Invade the buggers.

Do you think the US will do that?

One should no more confuse the teachings of Islam with the behaviour of some of it's radicals than one should Judaism and Christianity.

Originally Posted by machangezi

So let me get this straight.The US is responsible cos:

1. They ain't saying nothing to the Saudis. We hear people being beheaded in public almost every month. Why the US ain't doing anything? The US is very much concerened about world democracy. Is there any democracy in S. Arabia?

2. The US is travelling thousands of miles to hunt terrorists/extremists. Iraq and Afghanistan are examples. Why not go to the grossroot level and solve it once and for all? Saudi has been funding extremist organisations in Pakistan! Lashker e Jahngvi, Sipah e Sahaba, Jais e Islam are a few examples. They are all Wahabis.

3. Wahabism is resopnsible for all the fuck ups that's happening in the world today. Saudi is the only Wahabi state in the face of earth. Why is the US of fucking American doing nothing about it?

The list goes on but I think this is enough for now.

Answer to your second question:

Islam cleary states that everyone has freedom to choose. Here's a quot from the Quran "let there be no compulsion in religion".

Simple minded infidels who refuse to die?

In my whole live I have never come across any teaching of Islam that says go and die. Dying for a great cause such as defending your motherland is justified. I think the Merikans are doing the same. NO?

The US is responsible in way that its foreign policy is entirely fucked up. They only consider their own interest. They want to achieve their goals by any means without any concern about others.

Now somebody tell Butcher that Saudi ain't a real democracy. Pakland ain't a democracy at all. Invade the buggers.

Do you think the US will do that?

You make some good points.

I think the first thing after 9/11 the US should have stopped importing Saudi oil, frozen all Saudi assets, activated an air and naval blockade, followed by Nuking mecca and all the oil fields. Essentially we should have simply annihilated them.