Thread: How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?

Originally Posted by OhOh

Number 1.
The POTUS calls his country and it's people "exceptional". Shades of another countries leader in the 1930/40's calling it's people "the master race". Different phrase but the same deluded arrogance.

What a desperate stretch to connect Obama with Hitler and the Master Race. Desperate, and playing the Hitler card is an automatic You Lose.

Originally Posted by OhOh

"Today, we pay tribute to all who served. They were patriots, like my grandfather who served in Patton’s Army—soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guard, merchant marines—and the women of the WACs and the WAVES and every branch. They risked their lives, and gave their lives so that we, the people the world over, could live free. They were women who stepped up in unprecedented numbers, manning the home front, and—like my grandmother—building bombers on assembly lines. This was the generation that literally saved the world—that ended the war and laid a foundation for peace."

Exeptionalism.Not one single mention of anybody but US people.

He was talking to an American audience about the American role is WWII. Gee, he blew a trumpet for America at an observance for the end of the war. What about the rest of Obama's speech, or are your cherry picking for your desperate anti-Obama trolls?

This thread should be renamed the OhDoh/RT propaganda thread.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Vladimir or Obama who is the more dangerous?

C'mon.... That's not a serious question, is it?

Depends on your perspective, doesn't it, like who is the danger is targeted at.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Vladimir or Obama who is the more dangerous?

Originally Posted by OhOh

This thread should be renamed the OhDoh/RT propaganda thread.

Do you have a post on the topic of this thread or is getting the hots by idolising me enough for you?

You'll note I didn't ask for an intelligent post, any will do.

Originally Posted by OhOh

You'll note I didn't ask for an intelligent post

Since you are not capable of posting one yourself. My response do your dribble;

Originally Posted by MrG

C'mon.... That's not a serious question, is it? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it, like who is the danger is targeted at.

It's an evolving thread. Is the word dangerous to strong. Here is a selection of alternatives:

• alarming
• bad
• critical
• deadly
• fatal
• nasty
• perilous
• precarious
• risky
• serious
• terrible
• threatening
• treacherous

• ugly
• unhealthy
• unsafe
  

Pick another if you wish.


My perspective is what danger Putin is or has shown to the world. Sure he has done some things but in relative terms vis country leader/country leader who has the "exceptional" kill rate during their terms of office? Who has caused more suffering? Who is dividing the world? Who will be remembered in history for achieving some form of advancement to civilisation.


The current POTUS has already won a "Peace Prize" so he is in the lead at the moment.

Wow a picture from your bedroom wall no doubt. Do you give him a kiss every night?

You've hurt my feelings here I was thinking we had something special.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG C'mon.... That's not a serious question, is it? Depends on your perspective, doesn't it, like who is the danger is targeted at. It's an evolving thread. Is the word dangerous to strong. Here is a selection of alternatives: alarming bad critical deadly fatal nasty perilous precarious risky serious terrible threatening treacherous ugly unhealthy unsafe Pick another if you wish.

You clearly missed the point of the question. Or just avoided it.

Originally Posted by Neo

Mr G... no offense here, bit of a tangent really.
Have you seen the documentary about the Russian cosmonauts?
In the 50's Russia beat the US into space on several counts, the US up to that point had portrayed Russia as a nation of potato eaters and the public was taken aback that Russia had succeeded ahead of the US. The US turned this into fear to control their population, that Russia could send missiles to America. It's true that the Russians built the first ICBM, they were always ahead in rocket technology; it was their success. The US's humiliation after all the rhetoric of victory led them to vilify Russia and control their own population. And they're still doing it. The US is a very bad loser.

I don't dispute any of your history about cosmonauts, the first ICBMs, who had the best rocket technology (probably by minds looted from Germany after WWII, like we did) etc. I just don't know.

I have clear memories of the 50s, the Cold War, Russian Bears, Atom Bombs, duck and cover, but no where do I recollect Russians being characterized as a bunch of dumb potato eaters. I do remember driving through America's Great Smokey Mountains when it was a two lane road and seeing shacks with porches and chickens running in and out.

Yes, I'm fully aware that the US is a bad loser. Who isn't? Hell, we only recently came out and said we lost the Vietnam War.
I am fully aware of the media propoganda machine that, while ostensibly independent and private, are more accurately described as being in symbiosis with the government and the corporate power structure by keeping everyone entertained, ignorant and, even more important, forgetful.
Yes, they bad-mouth each other. Been going on for years. Used to wave atom bombs at each other...pound shoes on the podium at the UN. It's not news.

http://rt.com/news/262141-mistral-ru...-compensation/

"Russia won’t try and get its ill-fated Mistral helicopter carriers from France, a Russian official has announced.

“Russia won’t be taking them [the Mistral vessels]. That’s a fact. There’s just a single discussion underway at the moment – on the amount of money that should be returned to Russia,” Oleg Bochkarev, a deputy chairman of the Russian governmental Military-Industrial Commission, is cited as saying by RBC.

The negotiations have been “transferred into the commercial field” and “major efforts are being made today” for Russia to receive damages, Bochkarev told RIA Novosti.

France reportedly offered €748 million as compensation, but Russia turned down the proposal, calling it "laughable.

Earlier this month, an article in the Le Point weekly magazine said the French government could end up having to pay “between €2 billion and €5 billion,” if it doesn’t fulfill its contractual obligations with Russia."

Originally Posted by OhOh

http://rt.com/news/262141-mistral-ru...-compensation/

"Russia won’t try and get its ill-fated Mistral helicopter carriers from France, a Russian official has announced.

“Russia won’t be taking them [the Mistral vessels]. That’s a fact. There’s just a single discussion underway at the moment – on the amount of money that should be returned to Russia,” Oleg Bochkarev, a deputy chairman of the Russian governmental Military-Industrial Commission, is cited as saying by RBC.

The negotiations have been “transferred into the commercial field” and “major efforts are being made today” for Russia to receive damages, Bochkarev told RIA Novosti.

France reportedly offered €748 million as compensation, but Russia turned down the proposal, calling it "laughable.

Earlier this month, an article in the Le Point weekly magazine said the French government could end up having to pay “between €2 billion and €5 billion,” if it doesn’t fulfill its contractual obligations with Russia."

as with everything in the world, there may be aulterior motive, as China comes sniffing as a white knight for the amphibious vessels (at a reduced price) and then sells to its 'ally' Russia (who has already pocketed the contract cancellation fees).

Historically, NATO — heavily backed by the United States — has sought to spread its influence further eastward, despite an agreement after the reunification of Germany, that it would not encroach on the former Warsaw Pact nations. At the time, former Russian President Mikhail Gorbachev was assured by (then) US Secretary of State James Baker there would be "no extension of NATO's jurisdiction one inch to the east."
Since then, the onward march of NATO eastward has continued unabashed with the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Albania, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia all joining the Washington-led military coalition.


NATO is set to break a 1979 treaty it signed with Russia by establishing permanent forces in Latvia, as it piles in more troops to the Baltic States

It's much more of a disagreement over the size of the force, I know, but it seems that that may be a loophole
From the above article:

However, the deployment of permanent forces flies in the face of the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation which was signed in Paris, France on 27 May 1997.

It declared that "NATO and Russia do not consider each other as adversaries" and that The Act states that NATO "will carry out its collective defense and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces."

Breedlove refused to confirm the number of troops that will be deployed in the region, but suggested a standard NATO brigade could consist of around 3,000 soldiers.

Could be a Spearhead Force is part of their Readiness Action Plan, and that includes NATO.

In February, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, in a meeting with the Latvian President, said: "The Alliance's responsibility is to protect and defend each and every Ally against any threat. And NATO's support for its eastern Allies, including Latvia, was confirmed at the recent NATO Defense Ministers' meeting in Brussels.

"Here, more progress was made in implementing our Readiness Action Plan, including establishing an enhanced NATO response force and a very high readiness Spearhead Force," Stoltenberg said.

On the other hand, from Putin's point of view I can see why it may worry him to watch wolves gathering on the border, no matter how domesticated they look.
.

Russia's army is massing troops and hundreds of pieces of weaponry including mobile rocket launchers, tanks and artillery at a makeshift base near the border with Ukraine, a Reuters reporter saw this week.
Many of the vehicles have number plates and identifying marks removed while many of the servicemen had taken insignia off their fatigues. As such, they match the appearance of some of the forces spotted in eastern Ukraine, which Kiev and its Western allies allege are covert Russian detachments.
The scene at the base on the Kuzminsky firing range, around 50 km (30 miles) from the border, offers some of the clearest evidence to date of what appeared to be a concerted Russian military build-up in the area.
Earlier this month, NATO military commander General Philip Breedlove said he believed the separatists were taking advantage of a ceasefire that came into force in February to re-arm and prepare for a new offensive. However, he gave no specifics.
Russia denies that its military is involved in the conflict in Ukraine's east, where Moscow-backed separatists have been fighting forces loyal to the pro-Western government in Kiev.
Russia's defense ministry said it had no immediate comment about the build-up. Several soldiers said they had been sent to the base for simple military exercises, suggesting their presence was unconnected to the situation in Ukraine.
Asked by Reuters if large numbers of unmarked weaponry and troops without insignia at the border indicated that Russia planned to invade Ukraine, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said during a conference call with reporters:
"I find the wording of this question, 'if an invasion is being prepared', inappropriate as such."
The weapons being delivered there included Uragan multiple rocket launchers, tanks and self-propelled howitzers -- all weapon types that have been used in the conflict in eastern Ukraine between Kiev's forces and separatists.
The amount of military hardware at the base was about three times greater than in March this year, when Reuters journalists were previously in the area. At that time, only a few dozen pieces of equipment were in view.
Over the course of fours days starting on Saturday, Reuters saw four goods trains with military vehicles and troops arriving at a rail station in the Rostov region of southern Russia, with at least two trainloads traveling on by road to the base.
A large section of dirt road leading across the steppe from the Kuzminsky range to the Ukrainian border had been freshly repaired, making it more passable for heavy vehicles.
The road leads to a quiet border crossing typically only used by local residents. On the other side is Ukraine's Luhansk region, which is controlled by separatists and has been the scene of intense fighting.


MARCHING ORDERS


Valentina Melnikova, a human rights campaigner who works closely with families of Russian servicemen, said she had information that Rostov region was being used as a staging post for troops on their way to Ukraine.
She said the information came from the mother of a serviceman stationed in the town of Totskoye, in the Orenburg region near Russia's border with Kazakhstan.
Melnikova said the serviceman heard from commanders that "they are going to be transferred to Rostov region after May 20 and then to Ukraine. They signed papers about non-disclosure of information and about acting voluntarily.
"Of course it was an order. How could it be voluntarily? They are servicemen," said Melnikova, who runs the Moscow-based Alliance of Soldiers' Mothers Committees.
Her account could not be independently verified by Reuters.
In some cases where Russian citizens have been captured in Ukraine by forces loyal to Kiev, Russian officials have said they were there of their own accord and were either on leave from the armed forces or had quit the military.
More military hardware trundles into the Matveev Kurgan railway station on goods trains every day.
A train that pulled in on Tuesday was carrying 16 T-72 tanks, and a number of military trucks.
A local woman who was at the station with a pre-school age girl looked at the tanks on flat-bed rail cars, sighed, and said: "Nothing surprises me any more."
Over the four days, trains arrived delivering a total of at least 26 tanks, about 30 Uragan launchers, dozens of trucks as well as several armored personnel carriers and self-propelled howitzers.
On two occasions, after the trains had been unloaded, reporters followed the column of vehicles to the firing range -- a location that has already been linked indirectly to the fighting in Ukraine.
Bellingcat, a British-based group of volunteers who use social media to investigate conflicts, analyzed postings by Russian soldiers on social network accounts, including geo-location tags on photos, and concluded that some of those in Ukraine had earlier been at the Kuzminsky range.
A former Russian soldier said last year, when he was on active military service, that he underwent training at the range and was later sent up to the Ukrainian border. Once at the border he was ordered to fire Grad rockets, although he said he could not be certain they were fired into Ukraine. He also said some members of his unit had crossed into Ukraine.
"That's a very big firing range. We studied for two weeks, we had a quick course. After that we got the order and went to the border," said the former soldier, who did not want to be identified because the operation has not been made public.


Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness | Reuters

Originally Posted by MrG

He was talking to an American audience about the American role is WWII

I reckon this speaks to a lot more than a Russian audience-


Stalin’s Soviet Union Defeated Germany — We Should Not Forget

It was churlish for western leaders to boycott this week’s Victory Parade in Moscow that commemorated the Soviet Union’s defeat of Nazi Germany 70 years ago.

Historic events are facts that should not be manipulated according to the latest political fashions.

... Let’s do the numbers. The Soviet armed forces destroyed 507 German division and 100 allied Axis divisions (according to Soviet figures). These latter included the pan-European Waffen SS whose largest numbers came from Belgium, Holland and Scandinavia, Italy, Romania, Hungary, Finland and a division from Spain. Soviet military historians claim their forces destroyed 77,000 enemy planes, 48,000 enemy tanks and armored vehicles. The Red Army accounted for 75-80% of Axis casualties in World war II.
In the process, 1,710 Russian cities, 70,000 towns and villages, 31,850 factories or and 1,974 collective farms were destroyed. Add 84,000 schools, 43,000 libraries and 65,000 km of railway.

The leading Russian military historian Dimitri Volkogonov revealed during the Gorbachev years that Russia’s total losses from 1941-1945 were 26.6 to 27 million dead. Ten million of them were Soviet soldiers dead or missing. Compare this to total US dead in the European theater of 139,000.

No one likes to admit it was Stalin who defeated Nazi Germany.

...By the time the Allies established themselves in France, they outnumbered degraded German forces by 2:1. At least 67,000 German soldiers died in the Normandy operation. In a heartbreaking but little-known statistic of war, 6.7 million German horses were killed on both fronts. Soviet Ukraine bore the brunt of the war, losing some 5 million soldiers and 6 million civilians – roughly half of total Soviet losses.

By April, 1944, Germany still maintained 214 divisions on the East Front facing the advancing Soviet and just 60 divisions (mostly understrength, many only brigades in reality) on the Western Front.


The 4th Media » Stalin?s Soviet Union Defeated Germany ? We Should Not Forget

Vladimir Putin has declared that all military deaths will be classified as state secrets not just in times of war but also in peace – a move that activists worry might further discourage the reporting of Russian soldiers’ deaths in Ukraine.
The Russian president has amended a decree to extend the list of state secrets to include information on casualties during special operations when war has not been declared, among other changes. Previously, the list had only forbidden (pdf) “revealing personnel losses in wartime”. He has repeatedly denied any involvement of Russian troops in a pro-Russian rebellion in Ukraine.
Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov told journalists that the changes were not connected to the conflict in Ukraine. Revealing state secrets is punishable by up to seven years in prison.
Rights advocate Valentina Melnikova, secretary of the Union of Soldiers’ Mothers Committees, said the decree simply legalised the common practice of withholding information on all military losses, which had been done since Soviet times.
“I don’t know what [the new decree] is connected with, but the bolsheviks and Russian authorities never revealed any casualty numbers, except after South Ossetia,” she said, referring to the 2008 conflict during which Russian troops established control of the Georgian breakaway region. “It was always considered a state secret. Now Putin has just made this official.”
Sergei Krivenko, a member of the presidential human rights council, said the decree “raises many questions” and could serve to intimidate activists, journalists or relatives who report the deaths of Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine.
“If we lived in a state governed by the rule of law, this decree would only affect officials. Those who have this information don’t have the right to publish it, that’s what this decree is about,” he said. “But in the situation we’re in now … almost any citizen can be punished for revealing information, so long as the authorities decide that this information hurts the country’s interests.”
Earlier this month, one of two Russian men who were captured by Ukrainian forces during a clash with pro-Russian rebels said on camera that he was a member of the Russian special forces. Coverage of Russian soldiers’ presence in Ukraine is virtually taboo on state-controlled television, which portrays Russians fighting there as volunteers.
At least 276 Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine, according to a list of names compiled by Open Russia, an organisation started by Kremlin critic and former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky.
Reuters witnessed Russian troops and hundreds of pieces of weaponry near the border with Ukraine this week, providing evidence of a large-scale military buildup.
Also this month, colleagues of opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, who was murdered near the Kremlin in February, presented a report with evidence of Russian military operations in eastern Ukraine.
Relatives of dead servicemen and returned soldiers have been reluctant to speak out about the conflict. Activist Ilya Yashin told the Guardian that while working on the Nemtsov report he had met relatives of 17 soldiers from Ivanovo who were killed in Ukraine, but they had signed a pledge of secrecy and were afraid to go on record.
This week, US congressman Mac Thornberry said the Russian armed forces were “trying to hide their casualties” by deploying mobile crematoria to eastern Ukraine. Putin’s spokesman called the statement untrustworthy, and the US State Department reportedly declined to confirm the report.


Vladimir Putin declares all Russian military deaths state secrets | World news | The Guardian

Originally Posted by bsnub

Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness | Reuters

Bsnub's "news" list:

"March 13 2014 Russia Masses Troops Near Ukraine

• April 10 2014 NATO Chief: 40,000 Russian Troops Amassed Near Ukraine's Border
• April 13 2014 Well-equipped Russian troops amass near Ukraine border -Britain
• May 28 2014 Russia May Have 40,000 Troops Near Ukraine's Border: US sources
• July 14 2014 NATO estimates Russia has 10,000-12,000 troops near Ukraine border
• July 25 2014 More than 15,000 Russian troops along Ukraine border -U.S. envoy
• July 30 2014 Russia increasing troops, moving towards Ukraine border
• August 6 2014 NATO says Russia could be poised to invade Ukraine
• August 11 2014 Ukraine says Russia has massed 45,000 troops on joint border
• November 4 2014 Russian troops moving closer to Ukraine border: NATO chief
• November 7 2014 NATO sees increase in Russian troops along Ukraine border
• March 28 2015 Russia May Have 40,000 Troops Near Ukraine's Border: US sources
• May 27 2015 Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness"

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by MrG

He was talking to an American audience about the American role is WWII

I reckon this speaks to a lot more than a Russian audience-


Stalin’s Soviet Union Defeated Germany — We Should Not Forget

It was churlish for western leaders to boycott this week’s Victory Parade in Moscow that commemorated the Soviet Union’s defeat of Nazi Germany 70 years ago.

Historic events are facts that should not be manipulated according to the latest political fashions.

... Let’s do the numbers. The Soviet armed forces destroyed 507 German division and 100 allied Axis divisions (according to Soviet figures). These latter included the pan-European Waffen SS whose largest numbers came from Belgium, Holland and Scandinavia, Italy, Romania, Hungary, Finland and a division from Spain. Soviet military historians claim their forces destroyed 77,000 enemy planes, 48,000 enemy tanks and armored vehicles. The Red Army accounted for 75-80% of Axis casualties in World war II.
In the process, 1,710 Russian cities, 70,000 towns and villages, 31,850 factories or and 1,974 collective farms were destroyed. Add 84,000 schools, 43,000 libraries and 65,000 km of railway.

The leading Russian military historian Dimitri Volkogonov revealed during the Gorbachev years that Russia’s total losses from 1941-1945 were 26.6 to 27 million dead. Ten million of them were Soviet soldiers dead or missing. Compare this to total US dead in the European theater of 139,000.

No one likes to admit it was Stalin who defeated Nazi Germany.

...By the time the Allies established themselves in France, they outnumbered degraded German forces by 2:1. At least 67,000 German soldiers died in the Normandy operation. In a heartbreaking but little-known statistic of war, 6.7 million German horses were killed on both fronts. Soviet Ukraine bore the brunt of the war, losing some 5 million soldiers and 6 million civilians – roughly half of total Soviet losses.

By April, 1944, Germany still maintained 214 divisions on the East Front facing the advancing Soviet and just 60 divisions (mostly understrength, many only brigades in reality) on the Western Front.
The 4th Media » Stalin?s Soviet Union Defeated Germany ? We Should Not Forget

And the above isn't a speech by Putin.
I don't quite get the point of the post. If it's to remind me that Americans and our Presidents slant history for state propoganda, that's pretty well known, as is the fact that Russia paid massivly and dearly in WWII.

Link was a questionable source. I can't figure out who publishes them, but the anti-semitic rags they advertise do not bode well.

Originally Posted by sabang

It was churlish for western leaders to boycott this week’s Victory Parade in Moscow that commemorated the Soviet Union’s defeat of Nazi Germany 70 years ago.

Hardly churlish. It is Russia's use of its military forces for selfish and illegal territorial acquisitions which is the main subject of the international dispute.

It would have been very odd for western leaders to attend the military parade on the 9th may. This was not a parade of old soldiers in wheelchairs like Remembrance parades in the west. This was a parade of all the latest Russian military tech and hardware and a celebration of Russia's current military capability. Remembrance of the human sacrifice of veterans is just an excuse for the anachronistic and vulgar display.

Originally Posted by Looper

This was a parade of all the latest Russian military tech and hardware and a celebration of Russia's current military capability

Event was designed as a sales and promotion show for "certain" countries who russians wish would jump the ship from West to Russia. Including some in europe.

Originally Posted by Looper

Remembrance of the human sacrifice of veterans is just an excuse for the anachronistic and vulgar display.

Sad.

Originally Posted by sabang

Stalin’s Soviet Union Defeated Germany — We Should Not Forget

US aid alone saved Russia, which was going at bad direction already. politically and internally. Worst case scenario is that US helped keeping Stalin in power and denied any legal goverment that could have ended the war.

And you have missed the point that besides fighting Germany Russians attacked their democratic neighbours.

Perhaps it would have been better for the world if Hitler had defeated Russia, exhausted his resources doing that, and then Allied forces would have finished Hitler and liberated all - including later-to-become-soviet-suffering-and-oppressed-satellite states- of Europe.