It is still an internal sovereign dispute at that stage and none of Russia's business and certainly not grounds for an international land hi-jack.
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It is still an internal sovereign dispute at that stage and none of Russia's business and certainly not grounds for an international land hi-jack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Sevastapol is Russian and is one of their major national defense assets. Of course civil disruption in Crimea is their business.
They have led the issue to it's ultimate unavoidable destination peacefully.
Maybe we should ask the people :)-
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings
Overall disapproval of the job Obama is doing ticked up to 59 percent — a record high for his presidency — in the poll released Wednesday.
Now he's hit a new low on international relations — just 40 percent approval.
Poll: Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings - ABC News
the majority of people are retarded and have short memories, can't blame our leaders for taking advantage of such a flawQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Jones
but yes, the west is far worse than the CCCP ever was, maybe a sign of what's to come next
Right on bro. Bloody low information libtards the lot of you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
the CCCP wasn't that bad, small play in comparison to what the world has become
supervising mass murders - check
illegal invasion - check
creating economic collapse - check
press propaganda - check
grandiose leaders - check
organizing genocide - check
so I stand by my words, the "West" world has become far worse than the CCCP era
What Russia did was illegal. Comparing it to illegal incursions into sovereign states by othe powers such as the US and the "west" doesn't make it legal.
With full veto power in the UN and no fear sanctions would hurt much, Putin did what he knew he could get away with. Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation. Matters not 90% of the population agree. It's illegal.
Analogy is the south of Thailand. Territory ceded to Thailand way back when. Suppose Malaysia marched in, organized a referendum and when 90% voted yes Malaysian Parliament made them part of Malaysia. Illegal. Difference is Malaysia wouldn't get away with it because they are a small weak country. The entire world would be all over them. Including Russia.
The UN has some wonderful rules and treaties signed by just about all but when a powerful nation determines they can get away with an illegal act they will do it.
Doesn't make it legal though, does it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
You don't think Israel has a right to defend it's self?
Sevastopol was not recognised by the international commnity as Russian terrirtory. My understanding is that they lease the port facility. That does not entitle them to interfere in Ukraines national affairs. They are tenants not owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necron99
That is not surprising. Cowboy leaders often ride waves of national popularity. It does not make their actions right or defensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
In an act of brazen land theft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
But you fail to point out, the vote was not done until after Russian troops were in Crimea, and had surrounded most Ukrainian military installations.
You also fail to point out the shelling Israel was taking from the Gohlan heights before the 1967 take over of the Gohlan heights, and the continuing rocketing by the Pallestians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
Using your logic you seem to be saying that if the people living on a particular piece of land in whatever country they then have the right to pick any country they choose to join, I don,t think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterflyare you that gullible and ignorant ? this is not different from what we are advocating, the actions of GW Bush and Obama have destroyed what was left of the UN Charter core principles,Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Russia was simply taking back what was traditionally Russian,
Obama outraged play is nothing more than a plot to isolate Russia from its EU clients
quite cynical and dishonest, not fair game by either party, and perfectly legitimate for Putin to retaliate against what is a blatant manipulation by the West usual suspects, that is the US and their European black traitorous Puddle, the UK
You don' think America organizing sanctions on Russia has more to do with making Putin think twice before any more land grabs.
I also noticed someone asked what America selling gas to Europe had to do with this. America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe, as Putin relies heavily on income from it's sale of natural gas to Europe the competition will have quite an adverse effect on the Russian economy
It won't. Russian LNG arrives in Europe through pipelines. It's currently impossible for US ships to compete with that. Russia exports 500 Million Cubic Meters of gas a day to Europe, there is no way the US could match that at the same price. Even if they could it will be over a decade before the US can build enough refineries and terminals to match Russian supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
Russia could turn every Crimean Tartar into car seat-covers and souvenir ashtrays but as long as the gas keeps flowing and the price stays low the EU will turn a blind eye.
No, the difference is the south does not have 90% support for the separatists. I'm not sure the figures but I doubt it's even half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
^Exactly.
That's why Obama is getting into war mode. These puppet twats like obama that work for corporate paymasters have only one option when they are losing a battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
Land that was stolen from Russia and placed in a made-up entity, possession of which on what had been a reasonable agreement (very much so on Russia's) would not have come into question until western powers aligned with right-wing Ukrainian nationalists to overthrow an elected government through a violent coup on Russia's doorstep- in Russia's "borderland," which is what "Ukraina" means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
The new government in Ukraine has more to fear from the nationalist Banderistas of Svoboda/Right Sector than they do from the Russians. The Ukrainian nationalists- people such as Oleh Tyahnybok, chum of US Senator McCain- are the only serious impediment to a peaceful resolution to this conflict, and the government of Ukraine appears to be trying to rein them in. It's absurd to think Russia is going to stand for a government led by the likes of Tyahnybok and his fascist party, or even including anti-Russian fascists as part of a coalition, on their border.
BBC News - Ukraine leader Turchynov warns of far-right threat
Ukraine's interim President Olexander Turchynov has condemned the ultra-nationalist Right Sector, saying the group is bent on "destabilisation".
Right Sector activists blocked the parliament (Rada) building in Kiev on Thursday night and smashed windows.
They blamed the interior minister for the killing of a Right Sector leader.
---
It is pretty obvious what "destabilisation" means here.
You can speculate all you like about the underlying political forces that drove the coup. It was an internal political matter. The fact is that an international land grab is orders of magnitude more serious than political subterfuge. National boundaries are taboo. Putin has stepped over a geographical and a metaphorical line. The world cannot sit back and let this oafish hooligan get away with his antics. I am disappointed that Obama is saying 'if he does anything else then...'. He has already done it and the world should send a message.
Thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by robuzo
Pieces of a puzzle people.
The time for battle draws near.
US mouthpiece video'd saying that the US "invested $5B" in destabilising Ukraine. Hardly internal when it was promoted externally ... by the usual suspects...Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Nations interfering politically with other nations is not in the same league as grabbing chunks of land. It is geo-political buffoonery. For it to be seen to go unpunished is asking for much more trouble down the line. The worlds largest nations like Russia should be setting an example not playing cowboys and indians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9999
Disagree some provinces in the south would vote yes by a majority but debating the percent who would vote yes is not the point. Point, it would be considered illegal under UN law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
Putin is dangerous but no more so than any other head of state who has the power via force to annex parts of a sovereign nation. Preventing such an action is one of the fundamental reasons the UN exists.
Don't have to look very hard however to see the UN is a miserable failure in effectively preventing or punishing illegal acts.
But why? Could it be that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
...is not actually the reason why it exists at all, but rather something more sinister?Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
the track record of "UN Intervention" show clearly that as long as it favours a few key players, they will act. If it doesn't, they will not.
UN, IMF, World bank, WTO .... all part and parcel of the same thing, and none of them are what they pretend to be.
Agree. All more evidence UN is a miserable failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
It appears that Putin's Black Belt may just have turned a sickly shade of pink :)
Putin calls Obama to discuss Ukraine
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Russia's Vladimir Putin has telephoned President Barack Obama to discuss the US proposal for a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine.
Mr Obama suggested that Russia put a concrete response in writing, the White House said in a statement.
According to the Kremlin, Mr Putin suggested examining how the situation could be stabilised.
Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine has sparked international condemnation.
In the hour-long phone call, the US president urged Mr Putin to avoid the build-up of forces on the Russian border with Ukraine.
"President Obama underscored to President Putin that the United States continues to support a diplomatic path... with the aim of de-escalation of the crisis," the White House said in a statement.
"President Obama made clear that this remains possible only if Russia pulls back its troops and does not take any steps to further violate Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty."
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Mark Mardell reports: ''It does sound like the Russians are backing away from further conflict''
The two leaders agreed that their foreign ministers would meet soon to discuss the next steps.
The US proposal, developed in consultation with Ukraine and other European countries, includes the deployment of international monitors to protect the rights of Russian speakers in Crimea, and the return of Russian troops there to their bases.
Mr Obama received Mr Putin's call in Saudi Arabia - the latest leg of a trip which also took the US president to Europe where the Ukraine crisis dominated discussions.
The Kremlin said in a statement that the Russian president drew Mr Obama's attention to "the continued rampage of extremists" in Kiev and various regions of Ukraine.
It said these individuals were "committing acts of intimidation towards peaceful residents, government authorities and law enforcement agencies... with impunity".
Mr Putin suggested examining possible steps the global community could take to help stabilise the situation, the Kremlin statement said.
He also expressed concern at an "effective blockade" of Moldova's separatist region of Trans-Dniester, where Russia has troops.
Pro-Russian politicians there have sent a request asking to join the Russian Federation.
Nato fears Russia could use its forces in Trans-Dniester to invade the breakaway region.
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President Putin welcomed military leaders to the Kremlin on Friday
Meanwhile in New York, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he had been assured by President Putin that the Russian leader "had no intention to make any military move" into Ukraine.
Russia's reported troop movements near Ukraine's eastern border - described as a "huge military build-up" by Nato - has triggered fears that Mr Putin's interest in Ukraine is not limited to Crimea.
The BBC's North America Editor, Mark Mardell, said Friday night's phone call could indicate tentative progress towards a diplomatic solution - just when fears were growing in the West that Russia could be about to stage an invasion of eastern Ukraine.
The US and its allies have imposed sanctions on members of Mr Putin's inner circle, and threatened to take action to target the Russian economy, in response to Moscow's actions in Crimea.
Moscow formally annexed Crimea after the predominantly ethnic Russian region held a referendum which backed joining Russia.
Kiev and the West condemned the vote as "illegal".
The move followed months of street protests, which led to the overthrow of pro-Kremlin Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February.
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BBC News - Putin calls Obama to discuss Ukraine
Why would America ship gas to Europe from a Pacific Ocean port?Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
I do not believe any one man has any power including Putin, Obama or Hugh Hefner let alone being singularly dangerous.
I believe most significant global events are orchestrated by one committee that sits in the Hague and these single human beings (as above) are just mouth pieces for this highly protected, extremely powerful and potentially dangerous group of people.
Yeah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loy Toy
The crimea is gone. Russia will not give it back, the West is not starting WW3 to save territory for the Ukraine. When the Russians did this in Georgia no one flinched. Rusians noted this and have used the same strategy. The Baltic States must be Shitting themselves.
In the long term whilst fracking could kill the world, it does produce shitloads of gas and oil. Russia, meaning Puttin, is very aware that it is his time to strike now or never. Putin knows he has nothing to fear. He is the closest thing to Stalin since Stalin. No one can survive a political attack on him. He knows that and so do most Russians,
Will The Ukraine be attacked, not unless they attack the Crimea. which they will not. Russia sells gas because it needs hard cash. It is still a backwater, when it comes to industrial production and Putin knows that if it switches off the Gas supplies it will also destroy its ability to develop as an economic power. My opinion is that after much sabre rattling the new borders will become accepted and the status quo will continue.
I think Putin knows that any more expansion will lead to crippling sanctions, not short term but long term. Europe buys its gas from Russia because it is easy and cheap. There is lots of gas world wide. Europe is just know starting to realize how much is under their own feet. (fracking) Russsia in the middle and long term must keep its customers happy or else all the gas it has is not going to make it any money. It's customers will look to securing supplies from other means if it looks like it can be used a s a weapon against their survival.
100% true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loy Toy
hardly, he is simply being courteous and getting closer to Obama before he can go for the killQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr Lick
I suspect Ukraine will have an energy crisis that will force it to join Russia without a single fire shot
They already have one now - IMF demands gas prices up by 50% as one of the many conditions they put in place so that they can ensnare them with debt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
The obama PR release is very one sided and barely mentions Putins questions about the US backed nazi scum currently terrorising the country. :rolleyes:
The IMF is about to rape Ukraine.
it's actually going to be 74% up with more to come in the following months,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
this will without doubt violate their agreement with GazProm, above all when that hike is to finance direct payment to the IMF in exchange of a loan. I can't see Putin letting the Americans getting paid out of the cheap gas from Ukraine, that will be daylight robbery.
Obama is going to face a harsh reality when his foreigner policies house of cards is going to collapse.
The Merkins have a saying I like - putting lipstick on a pig. Or somesuch.
It all works the same way. Your local municipal laws, your state laws, your national laws, your international laws - whatever that may be.
The big boys make the laws and institutions so it plays according to what suits them. The game is grab for myself and keep competition out.
Basically, them 'laws', by and large, are no more than the lipstick on the pig.
It all works sort of ok as long as there is no other stronger player around to challenge these 'laws'. The little suckers generally stfu and plays by your rules, else you whack them.
The big boys who make the rules of course don't have to stick to them. That would be stupid. Defeat the object of the exercise.
Now someone comes along and kicks sand in the big boys eyes, and all the lil suckers go running around excitedly shouting 'You can't do that!!!'. Instead of taking a lesson from it that the world after all this time still doesn't work according to the rules they abide by. And never will.
Sheesh. What you gonna do? Cry to mommy? Go to war? You ain't got the guts. And Putin knows it. It shows for all to see.
Strength is still the only real deterrent in this world, not some fanciful rules. Those only work on the sheep. And the weenies are ruled by the meek and 'disadvantaged'. Societal suicide.
The US is a net importer of Gas. Any gas sent abroad will mean higher prices for US citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
A port may have been authorised but how many years will it take to be built, if in fact it is. I am assured the local to this seaport may drag out the "authorisation" procedure. Even if it is Russia will always be able to offer Europe cheaper gas that the US.
It is well that Putin puts his requests in writing and ensures that the US puts there reponses in writing. Some may remember the US verbal "promises" to Gorbachev regarding NATO encroachment on Russia, many will remember the denials that the "Missile defence" ring around Russia was to protect the US and Europe against Iranian missiles, Now it seems all of the new NATO countries are demanding similar "defences systems" to protect them from Russia.
That's without laughing my arse off at Looper's fiction or worse, belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel
Actually there are two ports, and both are ready for action, one in Oregon, the other in Louisiana. The Oregon port would mostly export to Asia as reportedly Gazprom is planning a pipe line to service Asia, the Louisiana port obviously to Europe.
^ Would the gas be sourced via fracking by people like the Koch brothers if the US became a major gas exporter?
Doesn't Barry read the papers? He's been withdrawing troops from the border- job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Lick
Maybe he just wants to offer Barry & State a face saving way out- they've only looked like fools so far.
One things for sure- Crimea isn't on the table, that's part of russki again. And sanctions will not just damage Russia- they will damage Europe, and the Nato alliance