The 2013 Thai Protest discussion thread

[chitown]

What a bunch of nutters in Thai town, I am not sure which one is crazier, the old Thai bobble headed woman with the Thai flag painted on her cheek or that crusty old Brit that wants things "sorted".

In a real country, these protesters would be arrested for obstructing traffic, trying to overthrow the government, inciting a riot, treason, etc Real police officers would round them up and lock them up - but the cops in Thailand don't even make up a pimple on a Sudanese cop's behind. But Thailand is some sort of Never Never Land with Captain Hook Sunthep and his band of idiot Somchais never growing up.

It is sad really as Thailand could be a total paradise if the 90% of these baby minded Thais all moved to another country.

[Bettyboo]

Real police officers would round them up and lock them up - but the cops in Thailand don't even make up a pimple on a Sudanese cop's behind.

In a real country, the police won't be attacked by the army for doing their job. In a real country, the army are under the control of the government...

[chitown]

In a real country, the police won't be attacked by the army for doing their job. In a real country, the army are under the control of the government...

and not.....oh never mind.

[S Landreth]

Thai PBS is reporting that the MRT, the BTS and Airport Link will be extending hours till 2am on January 13, 2014.

An article from the Bangkok Post that might help some BKK commuters on Jan 13, 2014.

A total of 36 spots will be set aside for the car parks, which should accommodate nearly 18,000 cars, permanent secretary for transport Somchai Siriwattanachok said after a meeting of transport agencies...

[Tom Sawyer]

Wouldn't it be great if the extra parking lots worked, taxis waited in queues at appointed MRT and BTS spots other other sides of the protest 'shut down' intersections, and life went on as normal except for a little extra commuting time? That would really fuk up Suthep and his elite backers wouldn't it? Then by day-3 the news media start dropping it down to the third or fourth story in the TV lineup and the newspapers move it to page 2 and 3? The Opinion writers start writing pieces like "The Shut Down is Shut Out", "Coup Fears Recede", etc?

[Rural Surin]

Real police officers would round them up and lock them up - but the cops in Thailand don't even make up a pimple on a Sudanese cop's behind.

In a real country, the police won't be attacked by the army for doing their job. In a real country, the army are under the control of the government...

Yes, of course.

A real country.

[Tom Sawyer]

This is a Bangkok Pundit blog and is quite interesting - the bottom line to his post is that these goofy 'courts' and other unelected bodies are right out of control.. (but we knew that - interesting reading though - had a good laugh)


Constitution Court Judge: High speed rail not necessary for Thailand

By Bangkok Pundit Jan 09, 2014



First, some background, before the Constitution Court is the 2 trillion baht (US$60.5bn) infrastructure project which will borrow money over several years to spend on various infrastructure projects. For example:

42.7% for High speed trains
24.9% for Bangkok metro/subway
15% for Road upgrades
14.4% for Train (non-highspeed) upgrades
1.6% for Sea ports
1.5% for Cargo stations and custom houses at borders
The Thai government has set a goal to reduce logistics costs per GDP by 2% (currently at 15.2%) and gradually shift the transport modal from road to rail.
The grand ambition of the highspeed train project is linking Southeast Asia to China – namely from Singapore to Kunming in China’s southwestern Yunnan province.

BP: Some of the details changed, but the overall rationale for the entire project is available in English from a presentation by the Transport Minister which can be found . The most controversial part ishigh speed rail.*
After it passed in the Senate, the Democrats filed a Constitutional Court challenge against the 2 trillion baht infrastructure spending – see here and here – and yesterday in testimony one of the Constitutional Court judges stated (video is here and is from around 1:54 onwards):

These things are things that need to be thought about in advance (สิ่งเหล่านี้เป็นสิ่งที่เราต้องคิดล่วงหน้า); not just for Thailand, but also on a regional level and international level to see if it is worthwhile (ไม่ใช่คิดเฉพาะประเทศไทย ต้องคิดถึงระดับภูมิภาค ระดับอนุภูมิภาค ระดับสากลด้วย มันถึงจะคุ้มนะครับ)
These things, I think that if we are do them, they cannot be done in one night. If talking about the 2 trillion in order to bring in the high speed [rail] system. If about dual tracks, I won’t say a single word about it and we don’t need to waste any time on this. Dual tracks are very important. No need to waste time on changing lines/tracks like with trams in the past (สิ่งเหล่านี้ ผมถึงว่า ถ้าเราจะทำเนี่ย มันไม่สามารถที่จะทำได้ในชั่วคืนเดียว แล้วก็มาพูด สองล้านล้านเพื่อจะเอาระบบความเร็วสูงมา ถ้าระบบรางคู่เนี่ย ผมจะไม่พูดซักคำเดียวนะครับ และก็ไม่ต้องเสียเวลามานั่งอยู่ตรงนี้ด้วย รางคู่เนี่ยจำเป็นมาก ไม่ต้องไปเสียเวลาไปสับหลีก เหมือนแบบระบบรถรางสมัยก่อน)
Highways are the same; ASEAN highway, ESCAP has studied this issue for 20-30 years and it has not been done because of internal problems (ไฮเวย์เหมือนกัน เอเชียนไฮเวย์ เอสแคปเค้าศึกษามาเป็นยี่สิบสามสิบปีเค้ายังทำไ ม่ได้ เพราะมีปัญหาติดขัดภายใน). Gravel roads should be gone from Thailand first. Make them asphalt or something like that first (ถนนลูกรังให้หมดไปจากประเทศไทยก่อน ทำแอสฟัลหรืออะไรต่างๆให้เสร็จก่อน) before thinking about high speed [rail]. For high speed [rail], my personal opinion is that is that it is not really necessary for Thailand (ก่อนที่จะไปคิดถึงเรื่องระบบความเร็วสูง ความเร็วสูงเนี่ย ผมโดยส่วนตัวนะ มันยังไม่ค่อยจำเป็นสำหรับประเทศไทยเลยนะ) and the 2 trillion Baht if [Transport Minister] Chadchart dies and is reborn then even for his children then the money will still not be paid [back] (และเงินกู้สองล้านล้านน่ะ คุณชัชชาติตายไปเกิดใหม่มารุ่นลูกรุ่นหลานก็ยังใช้เง ินไม่หมดเลย)

BP: Another judge raised the issue of sufficiency economy, but the above is enough to critique.
First, the Judge seems to be confused about his role. He is not the policy expert. He is not the opposition. He is trying to apply a value judgment and that we should wait until there are no gravel roads before even thinking about high speed rail. Should Thailand have mobile phones even though not everyone in the country has landlines? Should we have 3G even though not everywhere in the country has 2G? Sure, it is a political argument that could be made, but what on earth is a judge doing saying this in a court. It just goes to show how out of control the judiciary is. It is like nothing can be done anymore without the judiciary giving their approval. This is an unelected body who have veto power over everything.
Thailand's planned high speed rail routes. Pic: Thai-Japanese Association report.

Second, the judge states it is necessary to look at regional and international level. Has the judge done this? Thailand has been in talks with China for a while on this issue over successive governments.
The Nation in August 2012:

During the tenure of the previous Democrat government, China and Thailand reached a preliminary agreement to cooperate on the high-speed train project, as China aims to link its southern region with the mainland Asean countries.

DPA in March 2013:

A high-speed rail link between Bangkok and Nong Khai in north-eastern Thailand was a key campaign promise of the Democrat Party for the 2010 election

Reuters in August 2011:

Thailand’s new government unveiled a revised plan for the country’s high-speed train network on Tuesday, prioritising domestic rail expansion over an ambitious regional connectivity plan being spearheaded by China.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra announced during her inaugural policy speech to parliament that three routes would be constructed linking Bangkok with urban centres in the north, northeast and upper south.
The plan differs from that of the previous Democrat Party-led government, which wanted one high-speed line connecting Bangkok with Nong Khai province bordering Laos, some 615 km (382 miles) away, followed by a second line stretching 980 km south of the capital to Padang Basar at the Malaysian border.
…
The previous Thai government had agreed in principal to borrow $400 million from China, which would be spent on materials to construct the high-speed railways, with Chinese engineers providing expertise.

MCOT in April 2013:

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra gave reassurances that Thailand’s high-speed train will reach the northeastern province of Nong Khai to connect Thailand with the Lao PDR and China.
Meeting Lao Deputy Prime Minister/Foreign Minister Thongloun Sisoulith on Wednesday, the Thai premier said she looks forward to a tripartite cooperation to develop infrastructure for communication and transport among Thailand, the Lao PDR and China.

The Economist on September 2013:

So last week China and Laos reaffirmed their commitment to make the proposed 260-mile (418-kilometre) passenger and freight railway between Kunming and Vientiane a reality. The project’s price tag is to be nearly as big as Laos’s formal economy: $6.2 billion plus interest. It will take an estimated 50,000 Chinese workers five years to build it. An astonishing two-thirds of the route will run through tunnels and over bridges. Strung together, the 76 tunnels that the national assembly of Laos has agreed to let China dig would be 196km long.
…
The scale of the longer-term railway project can seem daunting. The Chinese are looking for reassurances from Thailand’s government that it will do its bit, so that China does not lay tracks to Vientiane in vain. Thailand’s government intends to spend about 2 trillion baht ($64 billion) to upgrade the country’s infrastructure, including its railways, by 2020. The Chinese probably needn’t worry about the spending priorities of the current government, which is headed by Yingluck Shinawatra.

The Economist in October 2013:

China has been looking for reassurances from Ms Yingluck’s government that Thailand’s future really can be expected to pull into the station by 2020. That is when China plans to connect Vientiane, the capital of Laos, to Thailand. In the meantime China plans to sink $6.2 billion into a passenger and freight railway that will run from Kunming to Vientiane, tunnelling through 196km of mountains to get there. A Swiss man based in Vientiane remarks that in his country a project on this scale would be called a Jahrhundertprojekt, “a project of the century”. China’s clock however, runs faster: they are giving it five years.
On October 12th Ms Yingluck and Li Keqiang (pictured facing one another, at the left), the prime minister of China, stood together at a press event, to gaze at a model train and then into the future of high-speed railway magic—on a large screen, in Bangkok.

BP: So has the Court considered this? This is why we leave these things to the government; otherwise we might as well have the Chinese negotiate directly with the Court.

[S Landreth]

From Huffingtonpost

The Western media's neglect of the ongoing political unrest in Thailand seems quite conspicuous considering it's a sordid gem of a story ready-made for sensational headlines, replete with murder, political intrigue, corruption and nepotism. Thai activist Jon-Amerin Vorabutra is frustrated by this lack of coverage because he wants the world to see how the puppet regime of Yingluck Shinawatra continues employing excessive force against peaceful protesters. During an exclusive interview with this writer on Friday, Mr. Vorabutra urged the global press to compensate for past dereliction by spotlighting a mass demonstration set for January 13 that could bring Bangkok to a standstill and, potentially, the regime to its knees.

The opposition's animosity towards the incumbent is certainly understandable given Yingluck's government is de facto ruled by her nefarious brother, the exiled former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a felon on the lam who is able to still run the country, according to The New York Times, due to the wonders of Skype. Veteran journalist Tony Cartalucci succinctly captures Thaksin's track record and operational reach: "There is no question that an accused mass murderer and convicted criminal hiding abroad from a 2-year jail sentence, multiple arrest warrants, and a long list of pending court cases, is illegally running Thailand by proxy."

Yingluck herself is the personification of power gone mad. According to Michael Peel of the Financial Times she has cynically pursued her family's agenda since taking the helm. Although freely elected in 2011 Yingluck made the tragic mistake of showing contempt for the governed one too many times when she decided to extend amnesty to her fugitive sibling, triggering this latest round of protests. One wonders if she would be facing the current dilemma if her highness could have found a scintilla of wisdom and/or humility to resist being tempted by such a monumentally stupid idea.

Seemingly in one fell swoop Yingluck squandered the public trust and unleashed the ire and energy of the most passive of resisters, evidenced by millions of mostly middle-class protesters taking to the streets demanding her ouster. Of course, those who lust for power are rarely ready to concede it, which is why the state has tried to crackdown on the movement with tear gas, water cannons, rubber bullets -- and more.

Vorabutra and members of the People and Students Network for the Reform of Thailand (KPT) have been circulating evidence indicating regime surrogates have used lethal force on several occasions, including on December 28 when a member of the KPT was killed by a gunmen wielding an M16. Government security forces first claimed ignorance then blamed the incident on an unnamed "third party."

Vorabutra has also been disgusted by the Western media grossly underestimating protest attendance figures despite several rallies attracting millions. Reuters reported that a November 24 protest attracted only about 100,000 anti-government protesters while The Nation, a major news site in Thailand, put the figure at over one million. Eventually learning their lesson, opposition organizers decided to capture helicopter footage of a rally that took place on December 22. Vorabutra said this near irrefutable evidence was handed over to experts who then pegged the size of the crowd at no less than 4.3 million. Yet Reuters and The New York Times reported the number of protesters at the very same rally to be in the "tens of thousands."

In light of the media's credo "if it bleeds, it leads," how does one account for the overall dearth of curiosity? Cartalucci suggests that members of the Western corporate media complex have squarely placed themselves on the side of Wall Street and London's "monied elite" as opposed to performing their role as impartial informer. Upon taking office in the late 1990s Thaksin promised to act as a "matchmaker" between Western commercial interests and Thai businesses. He has been represented by America's foremost public relations and lobbying firms and has been an adviser to the omniscient Carlyle Group.

The Shinawatras have also leveraged American research institutes, including the CIA-linked Asia Foundation, whose studies have consistently portrayed the struggle in Thailand as a class conflict with Thaksin and his ilk representing the downtrodden against an opposition led by aristocrats. One would think said charge would be instantly undermined by the nature of its source, a cabal of crony capitalists, yet it has become intertwined within the mainstream media's narrative. Meanwhile, the U.S. government continues to stand by its woman in Bangkok whom the State Department has referred to as "a long-time friend and ally."

This is not to suggest that exploitive elites are not capable of hijacking the revolution. Some have fairly accused certain anti-regime egoists of abusing the power of civil obedience for their own personal material gain. Thus, Thai protesters who genuinely care about their country should be suspicious of ideologues and utopians who promise nirvana. The legitimately civic-minded should also be on the lookout for reformers in-name-only who seek power for power's sake in addition to being wary of those merely interested in maintaining the status quo under a different name.

Vorabutra and his associates are well aware of these pitfalls -- they want nothing more than to break the cycle of corruption that has plagued Thai politics for decades. They also know Thailand will never recover by addressing only the symptoms of the disease, which is why they are focused on eliminating one of its major underlying causes.

Translation: The reason we vote for Pheuthai is because we want 'Thaksin' back". Signed (bottom right in white) Group of People Who Love Thaksin.

[Gerbil]

^ excellent article.

[PAG]

No. Totally pathetic and as much removed from reality as it's possible to be.

[Bettyboo]

From Huffingtonpost

Laughable piece, as you'd suspect from the poster... Pure one-sided propaganda full of half-truths as well as pure lies.

[Rural Surin]

From Huffingtonpost

Laughable piece, as you'd suspect from the poster... Pure one-sided propaganda full of half-truths as well as pure lies.

Indeed.
Become the protocol these day from particular Western POVs.
Their spin on Thai affairs is quite bizarre and terribly bias without true balance.

We can get that shit from the Thai establishment sources.

Fortunately, there is wealth of alternative spin out there.....that few are absorbing - Thai or foreign.

[Norton]

excellent article.

Deserves the Joseph Goebbels award for excellence in journalism.

[Troy]

It calls for a more sensible article.....

Why democracy struggles: Thailand’s elite coup culture
by NICHOLAS FARRELLY

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newman...s-Farrelly.pdf

Good background reading and puts the current situation into context.

Perhaps this time, it would be better if the West, and especially the US, did a little more than they did last time.

[robuzo]

excellent article.

Deserves the Joseph Goebbels award for excellence in journalism.

Indeed. That has the be the most egregious example of disinformation about the current state of Thai affairs that I've seen in the English-language media. It can't even be described as "slanted," but rather a passel of lies from start to finish- "The Western media's neglect of the ongoing political unrest in Thailand". What neglect? Laughably, the article then proceeds to contradict itself by citing Reuters and NYT coverage (vs. The Nation ). Then there is this- "extend amnesty to her fugitive sibling, triggering this latest round of protests" (underlining unattributed). The amnesty absolutely did not trigger the protests, and naturally the article contradicts itself by saying then saying that the proposed dismantling of democracy, such as it is, in Thailand is about corruption- "they want nothing more than to break the cycle of corruption" (the execrable Suthep being a really great choice for breaking a "cycle of corruption" btw ); quite so, I'm sure they are not terribly concerned about the blanket amnesty, which while constituting a disappointing realpolitik-style (pseudo-olive branch to the opposition) betrayal on the part of Yingluck that was designed to include the murderers from the Democrat Party who are the current puppetmasters (to use the melodramatic prose of the article) of the demonstrations. Of course, if the killers of 2010 manage a coup they'll skate anyway, so they don't need no stinkin' amnesty. In any case, while the amnesty is certainly a valid cause for red disgruntlement it is not even a tangential reason for the current desire on the part of the hyper-royalists to throw out the government and disenfranchise the Thai electorate. The root cause is something other altogether, which itself is only partly related to Thaksin.

The article goes to suggest obliquely that somehow the CIA and the Carlyle Group are supporting Thaksin and therefore are working against the interest of the anti-democracy forces. Unsubstantiated meat for the conspiracy theory-minded amongst us, I suppose. What a load of garbage.

Of course, if any non-Thai journalist were to write of the true reason behind the frantic efforts of Suthep, Abhisit, & Co. (in this case the firm's partners go unnamed) to end the Thai experiment in democracy he or she would find themselves deported or worse in short order.

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes. Stupid shit. BTW - is it just me, or does that photo look like it's been photoshopped to add the phrase on top of the flag?

[Tom Sawyer]

It calls for a more sensible article.....

Why democracy struggles: Thailand’s elite coup culture
by NICHOLAS FARRELLY

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newman...s-Farrelly.pdf

Good background reading and puts the current situation into context.

Perhaps this time, it would be better if the West, and especially the US, did a little more than they did last time.

I agree. But of course the West including USA won't as this report outlines (quite well). There is too much at stake for the USA in its "repositioning" to Asia-Pacific. It needs Thailand more than ever before. Which makes me wonder whether China is also playing a hand in this. Here is the my own dark worry - one I've tried to shut out - but am becoming increasingly concerned about. While I personally want Thailand to become a Western-oriented social democracy (ideally like a Sweden - I know fat chance), it would need a Che Gueverra type to step forward and lead the people to victory over these sakdina/amart cnuts. I don't see that happening, do you? My sense is that Thailand could be the battle ground of the 2015's - like the US-Soviet proxy wars of the 1970/80s. That's worth a real think IMO - and not one I like to consider, but a real reality in the immediate future.

[S Landreth]

BTW - is it just me, or does that photo look like it's been photoshopped to add the phrase on top of the flag?

If you would like to see the sign, it’s still up where the red dot is on the map below. I saw it there just a couple days ago while on a bike ride.

There’s also a 7/11 close by if you would like to purchase some Vaseline. Might help with that brown nose you seem to have developed.

[BaitongBoy]

^No felching?...Or brown-nosing?...

[robuzo]

PT voters tend to be pro-Thaksin. Shocking.

[Tom Sawyer]

Why can't we organize a REAL protest to get these people to fuck off out of our areas? Here is what I'd propose.

Let's pick Victory Monument just cause it's central and hardly all "yellow" as a good example. The date is chosen - say Tuesday - and all residents of the area who are well and truly pissed off at these assholes blocking our routes and livelihoods decide we will "MARCH" to the intersection and give the southern Mussies and their chinky grannies 10 minutes to fuck off. If they don't we will "MARCH" forward and retake the intersection and then direct traffic through it (non violent of course). We call on police and army to screen all of us as weapon free as we MARCH to the intersection.

Who could stop us? We would outnumber them 5 to 1 or more?

[Tom Sawyer]

Oh look, S_Landreth's Reputation is turned off. What a shame. Why is that?

[robuzo]

^^Who's "we"? Have a turd in your pocket? Just kidding. Why should the reds fight for Bangkok at all? Don't give the yellows what they want. Rather, give 'em enough rope.

As to S_Landreth's reputation, he might have you ignore.

[S Landreth]

Anyone got a list of the 7 major sites? I haven't seen one yet.

from the Nation dated Jan 12, 2014,.......

Oh look, S_Landreth's Reputation is turned off. What a shame. Why is that?

I don’t think I merit a position among posters on that first page of high reputation count. I was on the verge of entering that page.

Mind you,……I do enjoy receiving greens. It’s the only way I am able show support (giving greens) to the handful of wonderful posters here who add to this forum.

[S Landreth]

Few pictures from Ha Yaek Lat Phrao stage (five way intersection)