Thread: Should a Palestinian state exist?

Originally Posted by blackgang

OK, then I will expect you to be the last to belly ache when the Hamas or Hezbollah starts with the rockets again from inside a residential area and Israel answers in kind with rockets, albeit launched from jet fighter planes so that the accuracy is more exact instead of just lobbing cannon fire into the homes surrounding the launch pads.

But I doubt that is possible because you are still bitching about them going into Lebanon after hezbollah, blowing up some buildings, using aircraft and bombs to go into the areas where they were taking fire from and only answered an attack in their territory. Remember, they were attacked and some people killed and taken captive.

Do you expect them to be attacked and do nothing??
Hamas is already sending rockets into Israel and so far they are unanswered, but for how long do you think they should take it??

How about the rockets in the last couple of days from Lebanon??

do not tell me that you are stupid enough to think anyone should stand and be attacked, their people killed and do nothing to retaliate??
I think that you are smarter than that,,anti Semitic maybe, but not stupid.

Israel will not stand and watch, and I hate to think what would happen if it really comes to a stand off.. The Jews were fucked over for a very long time, I do not see them standing and waiting to see just how bad it will get before something is done.

I do not really know if the comments were for me BG, but I'll answer them just the same, some anyway.
Anti-semitic, no not me. I suppose we can read too much into the fact that I am ethnically one quarter Jewish, because I was never brought up either Jewish or observant. But both of my parents were and are very much into the Leon Uris 'Exodus' romanticisation of the whole formation of the Israeli state. My premise is very simply to seek to provide peace and security for Israel, justice and sovereignty for Palestine.

If my memory serves me correctly, two Israeli citizens have been killed in the past six months or so by those primitive Katyusha rockets fired from Gaza. That is tragic, and unwarranted. More important, from the point of view of those 'enemies of Israel' is the economic and psychological disruption they cause in the border areas. Call it Psy Ops- you know they are there, constantly, and ain't going anywhere. And you don't know when you will need to run for shelter next, or for how much longer. Not very good I know, but just imagine life in Gaza. I can't be bothered looking up how many deaths, injuries, buildings destroyed in Gaza during the same period- the comparison would be facile. I think you get the picture. Six people were killed by shelling on Gaza Beach alone one sunny afternoon, a family celebrating their daughters graduation.

Do I expect them to be attacked and do nothing? Good question. Who do you mean by them? Like, who is doing over 90% of the killing? Who is occupying who's country? Who are the main victims, the oppressed? Who has the gunships, the Abrams, the F14's, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, depleted uranium and nukes? But who can't they shut up, finish off, make the world forget, eliminate, destroy? They with no advanced weaponry besides Katyusha's and suicide bombers? Where would you rather live?

It's about time to sit back and think. Do you think you can make this go away? These people have nowhere else to go, and they are sitting in what is left of one of the longest continous habitations of a land in history. So bomb more, and more. Do you think that will make the problem go away? So launch another land incursion, another massacre. Do you think that will make the problem go away? Apparently not.

Meanwhile, Israel bleeds economically and spiritually. Propped up by American and Jewish money, and American high tech weaponry. Where has it got them? They have exposed their weakness with the recent abortive invasion of Hezbollaland. The sacking of the defence Minister, Army chief of staff and PM changes nothing. Your enemies have generations, they have been waiting for generations already.

Time to sit back and think? Am I the only ex-military officer on this board, and even if I am, am I the only one able to think strategically? And morally?

Originally Posted by blackgang

Remember, they were attacked and some people killed and taken captive

taken captive?

good god man, those israeli soldiers were kidnapped!

Oh and one point, repeated ad infinitum. Hamas is willing to recognise the state of Israel, once a commitment and timetable is put in place for withdrawal from Palestine. It is Israel that is recalcitrant for the very obvious reason that, even though most of their population is willing to exchange land for peace, their government and armed forces are not.

Your media and politicians are pulling the wool over your eyes- this has been the case since a long time before Hamas.

Not on your life,, The plan in 1948 was for the Palestines/Arabs to drive the few jews into the sea, if that had been allowed to happen, then would the Arabs have fell back and allowed the jews to occupy their partitioned lands that were given them and then taken away by the arabs?? not on your life they wouldn't.

Do you actually think that it is doing any good for the palestines to use suicide bombers, shoot rockets and in general stir shit with Israel?
Seems to me that it only makes things worse and proves Israels point that there will never be peace as long as the palestines are allowed to live.

Do I expect them to be attacked and do nothing? Good question. Who do you mean by them? Like, who is doing over 90% of the killing?

You are right, but only because their rockets that are supplied by Iran and Syria are cheap primative fireworks and if they were of a better quality, then the killing would be done by the other side, it is not by palestines choice that the jews are killing more people, damn, everyone knows that they are trying.

Well I do hope that you can see from your high generals standing that when push comes to shove and the jews say no more and hit the switch that the palestines, Hamas and Hezbollah will finally have gotten what they are looking for,, That mushroom cloud that they so richly deserve.

Originally Posted by sabang

...the Egyptian surprise attack in '67...

You deserve a bombardment of greens for that one.

Originally Posted by sabang

...Do I expect them to be attacked and do nothing? Good question. Who do you mean by them? Like, who is doing over 90% of the killing? Who is occupying who's country? Who are the main victims, the oppressed? Who has the gunships, the Abrams, the F14's, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, depleted uranium and nukes? But who can't they shut up, finish off, make the world forget, eliminate, destroy? They with no advanced weaponry besides Katyusha's and suicide bombers? Where would you rather live?

Scuse me? The joos have the means to finish off Hezbollah, Hamas and delete Hezbollastan and Hamastan in days if not hours, but it is not in their makeup to do so. It seems they tried and failed, which means yes the joos are imperfect and rarely do we hear so many whoops.

Otoh, switch sides in your own scenario, give them stones and a few rockets and give the Pals heavy duty hi-tech weaponry...now how long do you think it would take for the last joo to be dead? I imagine some of the usual suspects would just love to find out.

It's about time to sit back and think. Do you think you can make this go away? These people have nowhere else to go, and they are sitting in what is left of one of the longest continous habitations of a land in history. So bomb more, and more. Do you think that will make the problem go away? So launch another land incursion, another massacre. Do you think that will make the problem go away? Apparently not.

Certainly not, though those comment do seem to confirm your membership to the bhb. Might be a fine chance to take stock and answer your own unasked questions, as in why then do they not take their several opportunities for peace and the end of deaths of their own citizens by retaliation for acts of terrorism by their leaders.

Meanwhile, Israel bleeds economically and spiritually. Propped up by American and Jewish money, and American high tech weaponry. Where has it got them? They have exposed their weakness with the recent abortive invasion of Hezbollaland. The sacking of the defence Minister, Army chief of staff and PM changes nothing. Your enemies have generations, they have been waiting for generations already.

Correction, they have exposed not just their weakness with the recent 'abortive invasion' of Hezbollastan, but again the weakness of the West, which a certain unidentified mod cannot seem to grasp, to get in there and do the job. Do not assume for one moment that the terrorists stand alone in fields, they need to be rooted out one by one from behind women and children, couldn't care less how many of their shields are expended since this is a perfect formula for sustaining hatred and creating more terrorists, and when they are killed they're invariably classed as civilians, which further assists the Islamic/Palestinian cause, though we should now expect to be reminded by the same oneliner that not all Palestinians are terrorists or indeed Muslim.

...Am I the only ex-military officer on this board, and even if I am, am I the only one able to think strategically?

Could be, in which case it's just as well they put you out to stud.

And morally?

Bankrupt!

Originally Posted by sabang

Oh and one point, repeated ad infinitum. Hamas is willing to recognise the state of Israel, once a commitment and timetable is put in place for withdrawal from Palestine. It is Israel that is recalcitrant for the very obvious reason that, even though most of their population is willing to exchange land for peace, their government and armed forces are not.

Your media and politicians are pulling the wool over your eyes- this has been the case since a long time before Hamas.

As a fair and reasonable person, how would you define 'withdrawal from Palestine', and do you believe the same definition is assumed when applied by relevant Arab/Muslim leaders?

Also, it seems from your closing remark that only some quarters of the media and political world have been pulling wool over some of our eyes but not others. The answer is so obvious, I'm sure, but please let us know which media and politicians these are? I'm guessing you mean the rightwing fascists, rather than the lib/left/loonies.

Originally Posted by keda

Originally Posted by sabang

...the Egyptian surprise attack in '67...

You deserve a bombardment of greens for that one.

Yeh, you ain't greened me for a while Keda!
Of course I meant the 1973 Yom Kippur surprise attack.
1967 was a surprise attack by the joos.

Mushroom cloud- you know better than that,

No I do not know better than that, if it got thick and Israel seen that there was no way that they were coming out of it I am sure as fanatical as they are that they would punch the RED button.
And I damn sure would not bet money that they wouldn't, would you??

Fatah controlling the West Bank now stands to get a massive money injection from the West and peace talks with Israel have a real chance since Hamas is no longer part of the coalition.

Meanwhile Hamas, committed to the establishment of a Palestinain theocracy, will remain stuck in Gaza and will continue to be funded by Syria and Iran. I think Hamas is holding a losing hand here, in the long run.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Mushroom cloud- you know better than that,

No I do not know better than that, if it got thick and Israel seen that there was no way that they were coming out of it I am sure as fanatical as they are that they would punch the RED button.
And I damn sure would not bet money that they wouldn't, would you??

I thought the implications were obvious. Start by looking at the map. The radioactive fallout will decimate Israel, and totally root it's lifeblood of water. The rest of the world will not stand by.
Perhaps that is what some of the more apocalyptic 'enemies of Israel' actually want.

That is the final threat all nuclear powers hold - blow themselves and anyone around them up in case of defeat.

If Israel wanted to wipe out the Pals in Gaza all they have to do is turn off the food, water and electricity. The use of of nuclear weapons against the Pals is hardly necessary.
The Pals are their own worst enemy.
The government in the West Bank is hardly stable either.
Hamas will be tossing people off rooftops there too.... very soon.

Unless by some miracle the Palestinians grow a collective brain there will never be a "Palestinian Nation".
Maybe that's why a "Palestinian Nation" never has existed. They are too stupid to exist.
Israel should just cut the power and water. If they want to live in the dark ages let them!

While I agree with most of the above, it is a sad reality that they will get their state despite the fact that they do not deserve it, have done nothing to earn it, and will respect neither their own sovereignity nor that the world's decisionmakers have bent over backwards to appease what must be the most intrinsically unproductive and disruptive elements in recent world history.

Also, though it seems some of our resident lib/left/loonies cannot get their heads around it, and without underrating the natural adverse influence of fundamental political correctness, the West is so weakened with its own high falutin rules and values and principles that the Islamic extremes can usually find a way to coax if not shame it into sucking its own cock on the global stage under some honourable pretext or other.

Yes, and Mr Earl, they are also eating US grub amoung other food donated by world countrys, started to deliver more sacks and boxes last night and it is all donated stuff so they can live to cause further world disorder without working for their substance.

Do you have any idea why food is donated?
Care to find out?

Probably for the same reason that money is donated, because aside from their leaders they aint got none.

That's how weakened the loonie left is, in their state of fundamentalist PC delusion they donate food and clothing to people who need it, darn what has this world come to, I thought it was only bible-huggers and little old ladies who did nonsense like that!

Try that again, slowly, because it seems you are suggesting either that only the loonie left fundamentalist PC delusionals donate to the needy, or that everybody else seek only extremely wealthy beneficiaries for their largesse. Which is it, if either? Or do you mean the Palestinian leaders care enough for their denizens not to steal their food?

The western world has to feed them because they too busy tossing each other off buildings and lobbing rockets into Israel.
All while they blame the western countries for their problems.
And in a way they are right.
If we quit feeding them maybe they'd take some time to figure out how to feed themselves.
That's what most sensible people do!

On the same subject, I saw the other day on the news where they had ran a bunch of Tamil Tigers off and their bunker was built with sacks of donated rice instead of sand bags,, must have a lot of free give away food dontaions over there.

Same the world over, I have seen lots of "Hands across the sea" stuff being sold in markets or donated diesel powered gen sets running the hotels and big shots private homes instead of small towns and villages as they were donated for.

Originally Posted by blackgang

On the same subject, I saw the other day on the news where they had ran a bunch of Tamil Tigers off and their bunker was built with sacks of donated rice instead of sand bags,, must have a lot of free give away food dontaions over there.

Same the world over, I have seen lots of "Hands across the sea" stuff being sold in markets or donated diesel powered gen sets running the hotels and big shots private homes instead of small towns and villages as they were donated for.

could't agree more.
governments and people that give to these causes know this but still they keep giving.

sometimes giving too much for nothing has an adverse effect.

By giving away free bags of rice, wheat etc. this keeps the price up back home so the farmers don't bitch.