Thread: Should a Palestinian state exist?

PALESTINIANS FLEE TO ISRAEL: Because, you know, like...it's civilization.

Compared to their lot in refugee camps, the Gaza strip and these days even the West bank, many Palestinians would love to flee to Israel booner. Nothing new about that.
Like, what was your point?

Arafat won't miss it.
Anyway, a few dozen Palestinians want to flee to Israel after the Hamas takeover- we can assume they are not Hamas supporters then. Hardly surprising, but I can promise you that a few thousand would move or work in israel if they could, to feed their families.
Are you aware that the first thing that hamas did after their taking over Gaza was to declare an amnesty, and release all prisoners, except for a handful of presumably senior figures. Not too animal like.
Most of Gaza supports Hamas. But now we have a politically divided Palestine between the WB and Gaza.

I don't see how this affects the case for a Palestinian state- Hamas have been making overtures to the Israeli's for some time now that they are willing to renounce violence in return for statehood, and it has fallen on deaf ears as always.

^
They haven't been too willing to renounce violence the past few days, have they? The odds on a Vegas line on whether or not a Palistinian state will be formed alongside Israel in our lifetime are pretty steep.

Only when they publicly acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist will I get my hopes up.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear demands for two separate Palestinian states, despite fair debate on the ellusive merits of one. Oh yes, and it will be championed by the bhb and other haters of the societies that nourished them, till the masses awaken from their big sleep or we find a politician with something hanging between its legs.

^ bhb Keda?

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Only when they publicly acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist will I get my hopes up.

Yep, that's a prerequisite for anything else. Can't expect any favours from states you insist shouldn't exist.
Bit of Realpolitik required from the Pali side here.

May be a prerequisite in civilised quarters, but to some it's leverage for major concessions that'll leave them in a stronger position to resume their war of attrition at a later time.

I believe no matter how secure Israel's eventual concessionary right to exist (cor, can I exist, really?), it's only a matter of time before some cleric or leader raises the flag under a flimsy or manufactured grievance, and the ME will be no nearer to a true peace than it was at any other time. By that time it will be too late to dismantle the sovereign State that the weakened West created as an act of temporary appeasement born of utter desperation.

Best strategic move ever, imho, was for Egypt and Jordan to relinquish Gaza and the West Bank, and those so eager to scorn the joos for their deliberate and wholesale cold blooded murder of women and children might pause to consider that under former Arab rules the Palestinians were treated far worse than anything the nasty joos could come up with.

Originally Posted by keda

sovereign State that the weakened West created

Ehh???

^^Where on Earth did you get that from Keda? I'm willing to learn, but as far as I'm aware Palestine was treated pretty benignly under the Ottomans. Some sporadic conflict with the Syrians is about all I can recall.
Btw- still curious what bhb means.

Jordanian complicity with the fledgling state of Israel to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state is one of the lesser known aspects of those times- The Hashemite regimes in Jordan and Iraq were bitter enemies with Hajj, the intended Palestinian leader in Jerusalem.

I see...who controlled the West Bank and Gaza after the Ottomans, and who was living there with what 'rights' and under what conditions? Come now, don't play dumb unless you really thought I was referring to treatment of the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza under Ottoman rather than Egyptian and Jordanian rule.

Egypt and Jordan held and hold the Palestinians as one of the lower life forms, as did and do much of the Arab/Muslim ME, treated them accordingly whilst they had the opportunity pre-67, and cleverly ceded some lands in order to create a new and it does seem unsolvable problem for the West and in particular Israel. Strategic brilliance.

I am not aware of Israeli-Jordanian complicity against the formation of a Palestinian state, but if this is the case, and I certainly support it as things stand, it may be that they have more realistic perceptions of its denizens and or leaders and or lack of a sincere desire to work towards a workable peace, than can be shared with a pc world. Otoh, it could of course be the joos that are the bane of all and everything, and the Palestinians are just innocent bystanders caught in an Israeli-Egyptian/Jordanian crossfire.


bhb = bleeding hearts brigade

Originally Posted by keda

bhb = bleeding hearts brigade

Is this in some way related to the "PC-brigade" in some parallel pigeonholed universe?

Yes, I think it should exist,, look at what they are doing in Lebanon and Gaza strip now,, think how many a day are getting snuffed.
If there is a way to increase those numbers 100 to 1000 fold please notify Abbas.

^ why , are you going to stop posting?

funny how when it is your offensive post's--- it's o.k.

Originally Posted by keda

I see...who controlled the West Bank and Gaza after the Ottomans, and who was living there with what 'rights' and under what conditions?

bhb = bleeding hearts brigade

OK, now I know what bhb means, Ta. Sure, count me as one of them.

Post Ottoman, Palestine and Jordan were lumped together as Transjordan under British control. I am not aware of much strife except periodic insurrections involved with the creeping Zionist migration and buying up of Palestine. Jordanian/Palestinian strife is something I am not too aware of- but more than willing to learn- but I do know there was not a great deal of trust or empathy between the two peoples, neither is there today.

Gaza was ceded to Egypt (in those days a virtual British protectorate) and I have absolutely no idea what went on there.

But it only reinforces my point- the Palestinians/Phoenicians/Philistines ARE. They are not bastardised Jordanians or Egyptians, and never were.

The case for regaining sovereignty remains as compelling as ever.

These crazy priests, protesting and demanding Thailand stays a Buddhist country }-
Don’t they realise Salman Rushtie has just been given a gong by the Queen !
Where’s the brains:?

Originally Posted by KID

funny how when it is your offensive post's--- it's o.k.

Have you seen a comment of mine wishing to increase the number of fatalities in any conflict?
No? - then wash out your mouth.

Btw, the plural of post is "posts", not "post's".

Without fatalities there in no end to hostilities, Thats the nature of the beast.

The fatalities must be so massive that it brings about a change of mind.

Thats why Hezbollah does so good, hide behind civilians and use then for shields and people raise so much hell that they always win to a certain extent because world feelings stop the Jews from finishing the job.

Thats why Hamas in Gaza is doing so well and stopping the refugees from going to the west bank, they are damn fine shields, and right now there is so much worry about food and water and meds for Hamas in Gaza.
They brought it on them selves so fuck em, but can't say that about the folks that they won't let leave.
They use the world concern for saving lives to be able to kill that many more over a longer time.

Same with Fatah Islam in Lebanon, keep the folks in and don't let em leave and you can kill more Lebanese troops and they can't get to you..

they dont have the guts to fight, but to murder they are good at..

Originally Posted by blackgang

they dont have the guts to fight, but to murder they are good at..

A bit like carpet bombing places from a safe distance above isn't it? Except the pilots expect a medal and a pension scheme for their deeds.

Meanwhile the brave, plucky Israeli's heroically venture out in their helicopter gunships and F14's.....

When they marched on boots (with the aid of cluster bombs, depleted uranium and Abrams tanks) bravely into Hezbollaland, or was that Lebanon, they were sent packing.
Unsurprisingly, it has been the nexus that has given the Israeli's most pause for thought since the Egyptian surprise attack in '67.

Your major premise, that people listen to force, I agree with- at least in the short term. Your minor premise, that something or someone prevents the Israeli's 'finishing the job' I do not.

When will it occur to you that the only major prevention happening right now is that of someone finishing the job on Israel? Do you honestly think this is indefinitely sustainable?

Think again how to be a friend of Israels.

Welcome To The 7th Century in Hamastan


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OK, then I will expect you to be the last to belly ache when the Hamas or Hezbollah starts with the rockets again from inside a residential area and Israel answers in kind with rockets, albeit launched from jet fighter planes so that the accuracy is more exact instead of just lobbing cannon fire into the homes surrounding the launch pads.

But I doubt that is possible because you are still bitching about them going into Lebanon after hezbollah, blowing up some buildings, using aircraft and bombs to go into the areas where they were taking fire from and only answered an attack in their territory. Remember, they were attacked and some people killed and taken captive.

Do you expect them to be attacked and do nothing??
Hamas is already sending rockets into Israel and so far they are unanswered, but for how long do you think they should take it??

How about the rockets in the last couple of days from Lebanon??

do not tell me that you are stupid enough to think anyone should stand and be attacked, their people killed and do nothing to retaliate??
I think that you are smarter than that,,anti Semitic maybe, but not stupid.

Israel will not stand and watch, and I hate to think what would happen if it really comes to a stand off.. The Jews were fucked over for a very long time, I do not see them standing and waiting to see just how bad it will get before something is done.

Thanks BM, thats a good link..