Thread: Should a Palestinian state exist?

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

There are many good reasons.

Where ? all I saw were opinions about the existence of Israel. No more valid or worse than the reasons for a Palestinian state.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

There are numerous reasons to support denying the existence of a Palestinian state.

Not the least of which demands that they recognize Israel, give up terrorism and behave like civilized folks for starters.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

There are many good reasons.

Where ? all I saw were opinions about the existence of Israel. No more valid or worse than the reasons for a Palestinian state.

For one there is ample historical pretext.
Second Israel has earned their right to exist through productivity.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Second Israel has earned their right to exist through productivity.

do expand on this earl.

please.

^
The Joooos have turned that desert into a Garden for starters.

You want more?

How many Nobel Prizes have been awarded to them Joooos vs. the Pali's, eh?

Another non sequitur.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

^
The Joooos have turned that desert into a Garden for starters.

You want more?

How many Nobel Prizes have been awarded to them Joooos vs. the Pali's, eh?

Dunno, but the pali's got at least one. Yassur Arafat got the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994, along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin. Oh, the irony!!!

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Dunno, but the pali's got at least one. Yassur Arafat got the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994, along with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin. Oh, the irony!!!

Probably one of the most controversial ever given too...

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Should an Israeli state exist ? that's also a relevant question

An Israeli state already exists, no matter what anybody thinks they're not going to go away. I think the more important question now is how can they co-exist with the Palestinians and the Arab states in the region. I find the fact that Jordan and Egypt have come to some sort of terms with Israel very encouraging. It's a slow and bloody progress but it's still progress.

If a Palestinian state should not exist, what should we do with the palestinians ? Blow them in the air ? Israel is already trying to do it by killing a lot of innocents in Palestine.

Israel has overused his right to have a jewish state through zionism and mass immigration of foreigner jews, among them a lot of soviet jews and others till they are cramped in their country and have to steal parts of the palestinian soil for their colonies populated mostly by extremist jews.

I wonder if any member in this forum would be happy if he was controlled by a foreign force, bombed, without proper right to business, employement and peaceful life ?

And to answer to the OP, YES, a palestinian state should exist.

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Second Israel has earned their right to exist through productivity.

do expand on this earl.

please.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

^ The Joooos have turned that desert into a Garden for starters. You want more? How many Nobel Prizes have been awarded to them Joooos vs. the Pali's, eh?

hey boonie, it's cute how you like to jump to earl's aid, but you didn't really answer the question.

i'd like to read earl's rationale (and rubric) for equating a nations right to exist to its 'productivity'.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Ample historical pretext? Bollox! Prove that!

The desire of Jews to return to their historical homeland was first expressed during the Babylonian captivity after 597 BCE. This became a universal Jewish theme after the Jewish-Roman wars, which included the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 CE, and the exile that followed. The Jewish diaspora and the population that stayed in the the Land of Israel continued to see it as their spiritual home and as the Promised Land; there is no evidence of any interruption of the Jewish presence there for the last three millennia. For generations, the universal theme of the ingathering of the exiles and the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel carried mostly religious overtones due to the belief that the Jewish people would return to Zion with the coming of the Messiah, i.e., after divine intervention. Throughout centuries, some Jewish leaders proposed or attempted a return, but they were in a minority.

linky

Originally Posted by raycarey

i'd like to read earl's rationale (and rubric) for equating a nations right to exist to its 'productivity'.

In the 1860's Zionist pioneers began to arrive, and organized a productive society where one previously didn't exist.

To Herzl and like-minded Jews, the successful colonization of Palestine, the Jewish ancestral homeland, would necessitate the transplanting of western notions of science, technology and town planning to a poorly developed land dotted with gardenless, overcrowded and unsanitary Arab villages, which, from a distance, looked picturesque, as one British observer tartly noted.

The first generation of Zionist pioneers and planners in Palestine imagined a country of bucolic agricultural villages and Jewish peasants. Translating their dream into reality, they established the moshva, whose members farmed their land independently; the kibbutz, a collective settlement; and the moshav, a cooperative farming village. But their conception of town planning in Palestine was not only confined to building rural communities. On April 11, 1909, a band of Jews gathered in the desolate sand dunes north of Jaffa to consecrate Tel Aviv as a European-style garden suburb.

linky

From appearances it would seem that the horrible "jooos" created something from the dusty barren land!

Ottoman Rule

(1517-1917)

Following the Ottoman conquest in 1517, the Land was divided into four districts and attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. At the outset of the Ottoman era, an estimated 1,000 Jewish families lived in the country, mainly in Jerusalem, Nablus (Shechem), Hebron, Gaza, Safad (Tzfat) and the villages of Galilee. The community was comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the Land as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe.

Orderly government, until the death (1566) of Sultan Suleiman the Magificent, brought improvements and stimulated Jewish immigration. Some newcomers settled in Jerusalem, but the majority went to Safad where, by mid-16th century, the Jewish population had risen to about 10,000, and the town had become a thriving textile center as well as the focus of intense intellectual activity. During this period, the study of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) flourished, and contemporary clarifications of Jewish law, as codified in the Shulhan Arukh, spread throughout the Diaspora from the study houses in Safad.

With a gradual decline in the quality of Ottoman rule, the country was brought to a state of widespread neglect. By the end of the 18th century, much of the land was owned by absentee landlords and leased to impoverished tenant farmers, and taxation was as crippling as it was capricious. The great forests of Galilee and the Carmel mountain range were denuded of trees; swamp and desert encroached on agricultural land.

The 19th century saw medieval backwardness gradually give way to the first signs of progress, with various Western powers jockeyed for position, often through missionary activities. British, French and American scholars launched studies of biblical geography and archeology; Britain, France, Russia, Austria and the United States opened consulates in Jerusalem. Steamships began to ply regular routes between the Land and Europe; postal and telegraphic connections were installed; the first road was built connecting Jerusalem and Jaffa. The Land's rebirth as a crossroads for commerce of three continents was accelerated by the opening of the Suez Canal.

Consequently, the condition of the country's Jews slowly improved, and their numbers increased substantially. By mid-century, overcrowded conditions within the walled city of Jerusalem motivated the Jews to build the first neighborhood outside the walls (1860) and, in the next quarter century, to add seven more, forming the nucleus of the New City. By 1880, Jerusalem had an overall Jewish majority. Land for farming was purchased throughout the country; new rural settlements were set up; and the Hebrew language, long restricted to liturgy and literature, was revived. The stage was being set for the founding of the Zionist movement.

BTW, just to get our thinking right. A Palestinian state does exist, it is just currently occupied by Israel.

^do you have documentation??

^^
For sure.
But it's just a state of mind and likely to always be so until they behave like civilized people...

^I understand. The existence of a Palestinian state depends on how you "feel".

International law and the UN for a starter.

This thread is going nowhere.
The educated majority- Please do not turn this into an anti-American thing. The people arguing against facts and logic are all American of a certain generation. They have been brought up and indoctrinated this way. I know it lends itself to many conspiracy theories, but ultimately generations come and go.
Whether it takes ten years or ten generations is irrelevant in the wider scheme of things. The Palestinians will have back their Palestine, the main question for historical posterity is whether the Interest Group that claim to speak for the Israeli people will eliminate their nation in the process.
But that is Tomorrows history. I am beyond caring anyway.

I will shortly be starting a new thread, dealing with answers not ploblems.

A declaration of a "State of Palestine" (Arabic: دولة فلسطين) was approved on November 15, 1988, by the Palestinian National Council, the legislative body of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). The proclaimed "State of Palestine" is not and has never actually been an independent state, as it has never had sovereignty over any territory in history.

Sabang I'm not sure why you are "beyond caring"?

This issue of Palestine/Israel is the heart of all ME issues.

It is also one of the most revealing when confronting the hypocrisy of the so called "peaceful intentions" of the arab/muslim world.

Fair question Early. I am beyond caring because my psyche' can not handle all this unnecessary suffering, this injustice, this refusal to see logic and facts, these entrenched positions everywhere.
I can not talk Logic to people, and neither can anyone else.

I am a Coward who has abandoned the West, and gone to live in Thailand. I only speak as a free Thinker, and I feel the concept of the Nation state has well outlived it's usefulness.

Originally Posted by sabang

the concept of the Nation state has well outlived it's usefulness.

What's the alternative?