Thread: AIPAC

Often, actually.

Originally Posted by attaboy

Howabout the groups of western activists who call the USA swine for dealing with the Saudi Royal family? They seem to get plenty of airtime from the media.

There is a difference though between activist groups voicing their opinion on one side and the Saudi Royal family or AIPAC on the other side.

The activist groups does not buy your congressmans, senators and president.

Originally Posted by lom

Originally Posted by attaboy

Howabout the groups of western activists who call the USA swine for dealing with the Saudi Royal family? They seem to get plenty of airtime from the media.

There is a difference though between activist groups voicing their opinion on one side and the Saudi Royal family or AIPAC on the other side.

The activist groups does not buy your congressmans, senators and president.

well, the interest groups bribes the congressman just the same, but at least then the briber is American and the interest is American. AIPAC, as an agency of a foreign government, is bribing our Congressmen for Israeli interests, not American interests.

These bastards are selling out their country - which used to be considered treason. Can you imagine, say, Iran, doing the same thing?

Originally Posted by kerux

well, the interest groups bribes the congressman just the same, but at least then the briber is American and the interest is American. AIPAC, as an agency of a foreign government, is bribing our Congressmen for Israeli interests, not American interests.

These bastards are selling out their country - which used to be considered treason. Can you imagine, say, Iran, doing the same thing?

BINGO.

When the AARP lobbies Congress it's for the interests of American seniors. When the NRA lobbies Congress, once again, it's for the interests of Americans who want to own firearms (a Constitutional right).

When AIPAC is bribing and threatening Congressmen by cutting off their campaign contributions and threatening to use the "AS" word against them exactly what American interest is being served? How is it in the best interest of America to support a nation whose very existence is the heart of the problems of the Middle East in the first place?

The fact that we dole out billions per year in welfare to that nation is offensive enough. We spend more on one nation than we do on entire continents. It's a disgrace.

Every person who lobbies our national government for the interests of a foreign power should be tried for treason and deported.

Originally Posted by surasak

Again, why does such a small insignificant nation have such a stranglehold on America?

May be small but certainly not insignificant, as punctuated by your own sentiment about the US not letting her sink.

Either they're doing something right or their neighbours are doing something wrong; have a wild guess, though it could have something to do with those you can trust vs those that want you dead and make no bones about it.

I believe it has more to do with the Christian Fundamentalists who have hijacked the Republican Party than anything else.

Are we really selling ourselves down the river to the tune of thousands dead and trillions in debt just to buffer Iran from Israel? Makes the whole charade even more suspicious.

Originally Posted by attaboy

The US has so much influence worldwide. The country doles out so much aid that nations lobby at Congress to be heard. In a sense it is a world congress.

You gotta be kidding me.

View this PDF:

http://shelby.senate.gov/legislation/ForeignAid.pdf

Look at CRS-14.

Isn't it odd that one small country of 6 million gets such a disproportionate share of total U.S. foreign aid?

The proper way for a nation to lobby the United States is through diplomacy and treaties.

Originally Posted by surasak

Originally Posted by attaboy

The US has so much influence worldwide. The country doles out so much aid that nations lobby at Congress to be heard. In a sense it is a world congress.

You gotta be kidding me.

Your statement is vague. Are you saying you don't believe it? In a sense it is true. I have already said either in this topic or another that I don't like it but that is how it has become and asked for solutions to the problem.

Originally Posted by surasak

The proper way for a nation to lobby the United States is through diplomacy and treaties.

The Palestinians and the Kosovoians don't have a nation. Are they an SOL non-existent entity? Should they take their causes to the UN?

A. The aid to the Palestinian Authority is very small, and, ironically (since we love to toot our horns about how people ought to be able to choose their own governments) we withheld funds because the Palestinians voted for a government we didn't approve.

B. The statement that we dole out plenty of aid is false. Only one country receives a substantial amount of foreign aid, and, said country is considered very well off. So why do we continue the welfare?

If AIPAC want to help Israel let them put up their own private funds. The fact that we take American tax dollars and use them to fund Israel's government, use the money to fund IDF's purchases (which are subsequently used to destroy things we pay for directly through aid to the PA or Lebanon), or guarantee loans for illegal settlements, etc. while allowing victims of Katrina to live in horrid conditions makes me ashamed to call myself an American.

How in the world did we allow such a small nation or group of people such power over our government and foreign affairs?

And the US media likes to talk about the separation of Church and State and yet Israel has a state established religion and all but exludes non jews from anything of any significance in their country, eg, owning land. How hypocritical is that?

US - Israel, two different countries.

Originally Posted by sabang

You are a victim of the AIPAC lobby attaboy (go get 'em).
For at least twenty years now the Palestinians have been constantly trying to do a land for peace deal, that involves recognising Israel and renouncing violence in return for having their land returned and the brutal occupation ended. When I look at things from modern day standards, I am actually surprised at the forebearance shown by the Palestinians under the circumstances. Every time they offer an olive branch, the Israeli's just slap them down, brutally.

Are you aware that, since Hamas has been voted in (in a democratic election insisted upon by the USA I might add), The Palestinians have killed less Israeli's than since any equivalent period in the the current intifatida. Yet the Israeli's have killed more Palestinians than any equivalent period. Every time a ceasefire is brokered, the Israeli's break it- usually by targeted assassinations. Then the western press blames the Palestinians for the subsequent upsurge in violence. Every time a negotiated settlement seems to be achievable (such as Camp David), right wing bastard Israeli's within the security forces and government step up their campaign of murder, violence and oppression, then the dutiful western press blames the Palestinians for the subsequent upsurge in violence and breakdown of negotiations.

The degree to which we are the good guys ebbs and flows. But overall we are good. The Bush policy will be gone in Jan. 2009. Whoever gets in will have to develop a whole new strategy based on the fact that the palestinains and their benfactors don't want peace with Israel. Arafat had his chances over and over. He knew someone in Hamas or one of the other factions would have killed him had he signed a peace.At the same time I remember the shit Sharon pulled to piss the Palestinians off. Visiting the Temple Mount with his armed guards was a troll that the Palestinians responded to with another Intifada. They were making tremendous gains and they let Sharon play them for ill tempered fools.

'Good guys' though you may be, as long as you unilaterally support this atrocity you remain part of the problem, and an answer for nothing. No one believes a hypocrite, or a liar. Year by year, your moral 'suasion over the rest of the world diminishes due to your politicians open hypocricy. It is questionable if continental western Europe is on your side any more.

Western Europe has a problem. There is a general malaise over the Continent. For some reason they have it so good it is as if they would welcome the punishment Rrussia would put on them as their master. How does a masochistic urge sweep an entire land mass? What sort of brainwashing goes on during the Eurovision Song Contest broadcast?

Is there some sort of guilt that they feel they need to be punished and Daddy Russia is the answer?

You are the one country in the world that can easily do some thing about this yet you refuse to lift a finger, and the various organs of your government (including the corporate media) openly lie to your people and the rest of the world about what really is happening. This 'we are the good guys', 'freedom and democracy' bullshit has all but totally evaporated. In a supreme piece of dishonesty, Israel is the biggest recipent of US foreign aid in the World. It goes to feed their military, yet you lump it into the same budget as such things as feeding people, disaster aid etc. What unadulterated bullshit.

If you are a real friend of Israel's, as opposed to a profiteering bunch of warmongers, stand up to your moral responsibilities in this situation and reap the considerable benefits that will come to your nation from it. You will make up for a lot of lost ground by doing so. Nobody except middle American 'Gumbo's accept this crap about the survival of Israel as being at stake. It involves nothing more than the return of illegally occupied land in return for peace and security.

.....

[quote=kerux;293082

AIPAC was 62-65% of all campaign contributions in the 2006 elections, to both parties. They own both parties.

[/quote]

If this is true, then I am Gobsmacked.
Do you have anything to back this up kerux?

Attaboy- When faced a barrage of uncomfortable facts, it is the ubiquitous fall back position of Zionist apologists to come back to this spurious claim that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel and will settle for nothing less, therefore there is no negotiating with them. Therefore by inference, the Israeli's have carte blanche to do whatever they want to in the Occupied territories of Palestine, and Israel.
Presumably it is hoped that the great underlying falsehood will be ignored. I know there are some militant Palestinians (and others) who only want the destuction of Israel and the expulsion of all Jews. I know there are some Jews who only want the destruction of Palestine and the expulsion of all Palestinians from Palestine and Israel. I also know in both cases they are a small minority.
The Camp David accords, and the attempts to reach a settlement under Clinton were both openly about the recognition of Israel and the renunciation of violence in return for Israel returning the land we now call Palestine, that it has been occupying since 1967. Time and time again it has been shown that the majority of the population of Israel and Palestine are prepared to accept this- there are compromises involved for both parties as you would expect.
I happen to think that Arafat stuffed it up during the Camp David negotiations, but that has nothing to do with the fundamental justice of their cause. You pointed out Sharons blatant torpedoing of a peace process. Interestingly, Sharon (a monster who's name will always be tainted with the Sabra and Chatilla massacre's in my eyes) moderated as an old man, and finally got to see the inevitability of the Palestinian cause, and the desirability of working towards a land for peace negotiated settlement. If it happened to Sharon, I have to therefore believe that it is even within the realms of possibility that it could happen to that arsehole Netanyahu one day. My point is, most militancy is a variable function- it can change.
It remains the fact that the rest of the World has little reason to believe in the credibility, sincerity, democracy and sense of justice of the USA when faced with this hypocricy. Why on Earth your nation flies in the face of justice, democratic principles and united world opinion for this tiny speck of illegally occupied land genuinely puzzles me, which is why in turn I wonder what sort of grip AIPAC and other Jewish/Zionist interest groups must have over the US political process and opinion making process. Like that groovy picture above, it seems like they have you brainwashed. The fact is, the majority of the population of both Palestine and Israel are prepared to accept a negotiated settlement.
Why aren't you?

Originally Posted by kerux

And the US media likes to talk about the separation of Church and State and yet Israel has a state established religion and all but exludes non jews from anything of any significance in their country, eg, owning land. How hypocritical is that?

Trademark nonsense as usual...if you have the money you can buy Tel-Aviv.

Otoh, if you happen to be a Pal and sell land to a yid, you face the death penalty.

The Palestinian Authority's justice minister, Freih Abu Meddein, announced in early May 1997 that Palestinians who sell land to Jews will face the death penalty and over the next few weeks, at least four Palestinians said to have been involved in such sales were in fact murdered. In addition, Israeli forces rescued a fifth land dealer as he was being spirited from his home near Jerusalem to Ramallah, presumably to be killed. Evidence, both circumstantial and otherwise, pointed to direct PA involvement in each of these murders; indeed, Yasir Arafat himself justified the executions...

...on the same page...

ARAB ACCESS TO LAND IN ISRAEL

This then raises the question, how do the Israeli Arabs fare in terms of land? Here we must distinguish between government, JNF, and private lands.

State-owned lands. Israeli Arabs have equal access to state-owned land—four-fifths of the entire country—both in theory and in practice. Indeed, about half of the land they cultivate is directly leased to them by the Israeli government through the ILA.

Moreover, when it comes to residential land, the ILA sometimes offers Israeli Arabs more favorable terms from than it does to Israeli Jews. Thus, the ILA charged the equivalent of $24,000 for a capital lease on a quarter of an acre in new Jewish communities near Beersheva while Bedouin families in the nearby community of Rahat paid only $150 for the same amount of land. In a different case, when a Jewish policeman from Beersheva, Eleizer Avitan, applied to the ILA to lease land in a Bedouin community under the same highly subsidized terms available to the Bedouins, the ILA refused to lease him land there under any terms, so he sued. Israel's Supreme Court ruled in favor of the ILA, saying that what might be viewed as ILA discrimination against the Jewish citizen Avitan was justified as affirmative action for Bedouin citizens...

Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel? - Middle East Quarterly

Private land in Israel

There are no restrictions on private land transfers in Israel. Private land can be purchased or leasaed by Israeli Arabs or by non-citizens. Such land can be, and has been, purchased by Israeli Arabs and by foreigners, including Arab foreigners.

The Israeli government has announced plans to privatize much of Israel's state-owned land and offer cheap building permits to Israelis willing to move to less-desirable parts of the country, away from the crowded central area.
Contrast with Arab Policies

The relatively unrestricted access to land in Israel is in sharp contrast with Arab policies. During the 1948-1967 Jordanian occupation of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), for example, Jews were forbidden to live there under pain of death. In 1973, under the direct instructions of King Hussein, the government of Jordan passed the Law for Preventing the Sale of Immoveable Property to the Enemy. The "enemy" defined in Article 2 as:

* ... any man or judicial body [corporation] of Israeli citizenship living in Israel or acting on its behalf.

This law, or equivalent, continued in effect under the Palestinian Authority (PA). By 1997, 172 people had been sentenced to death under this law, although "only" about 10 have been executed. The law is invalid under the Oslo II agreement and is one of the many violations of the Oslo peace process agreements by the PA. Palestinian land dealers in PA controlled areas have been murdered as "collaborators", a practice that was publically condoned by Yasser Arafat.

In 1995, following the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, the Jordanian Parliament repealed the 1973 law and replaced it with milder statutes that still effectively bar Israelis from purchasing or leasing land in Jordan.

Israel's Land Ownership Policies


Sorry to pop your balloon with trivial details like fact.

For f*ks sake man, end my suffering and put me on ignore! For that matter if you put the entire board on ignore you can happily post to yourself till all things end.

"The Israeli government has announced plans to privatize much of Israel's state-owned land and offer cheap building permits to Israelis willing to move to less-desirable parts of the country, away from the crowded central area."

You don't need to be a genius to work out that to a large extent this involves Palestinian, not Israeli land. How can you sell something you do not own?
Anyone care to buy the Statue of Liberty, going cheap this week only.

The last paragraph was uncalled for, keda, but otherwise thanks for the very interesting info on this subject.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Nothing's futher from the truth as the Pali's don't just want to destroy Israel but also wipe it off the map.
Facts is facts...

Well, let's have a look at these 'facts', I'd genuinely like to know.
"the Pali's" needs to be more precise to start with, do you mean the people in their totality, majority, the government or a particular organisation?

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Nothing's futher from the truth as the Pali's don't just want to destroy Israel but also wipe it off the map.
Facts is facts...

Well, let's have a look at these 'facts', I'd genuinely like to know.
"the Pali's" needs to be more precise to start with, do you mean the people in their totality, majority, the government or a particular organisation?

Abbas is trying to do a "good" job but it's the radical wing that is derailing the peace process. That and the culture of raising kids to aspire to become sucicide bombers.

Nonsense Booner, nonsense. (Incidentally, is that what people genuinely believe in the USA? If so it certainly shows who controls your Media, because that is an out and out lie)). So all of a sudden Camp David and the Clinton attempt's at conciliation no longer exist. In both cases the main sticking points were over the 'Palestinian right of return' and the status of Jerusalem, not the return of the bulk of Palestine. Israel wanted to hang on to some settlements close to Israel, and understandably wanted certain water rights too, as most of it's water comes from the West Bank. When negotiations were at an impasse, the peace talks collapsed amongst heightened Israeli violence and provocation. To call a spade a spade, they were sabotaged- the Israeli delegation never had any intention of negotiating a settlement, in spite of the fact that the majority of the Israeli citizenry was willing to do just that. Modern democracy in action, hypocritical in the extreme.
The irony however is that the pigheadedness being shown by the Zionists and their US allies (who I repeat are a minority of the Israeli population) may just lead to the destruction of Israel. I think you know where the first bombs will drop in the event of a nuclear conflict.
Just think logically- where is the upside to this?