The Gun Issue thread

[AntRobertson]

Or are you worried about your reputation?

Yep, I have an image to maintain!

[rickschoppers]

So again, poor analogy. Pick something else.

Nah, I'm sticking with it. We will have to agree to disagree on its aptness(?).

The only difference that I can see (that matters) is the absence of political will as I mentioned above.

OK, we can agree to disagree. Much better than the personal infantile attacks I get from some.

My take is that some political will is driven by the Congressman's constituents with a splash of NRA arm twisting when it comes to gun control.

[AntRobertson]

My take is that some political will is driven by the Congressman's constituents with a splash of NRA arm twisting when it comes to gun control.

Yep, defo agree with that.

[MrG]

I think there is a difference between changing gun rights and "war fever", which was the case after 9/11. Much easier to motivate the masses into focused action when there is an outside enemy to aim at. I suppose that's why this same sense of "war fever" does not follow these gun massacres. Nobody has fired up the Might Wurlitzer, aka the propoganda machine that sells wars, military budgets, etc.

People are frustrated by a broken system. Like I said 85% want a change in the gun laws, 65% or more are NRA members, but nothing changes. The NRA is basically there to hawk guns and buy a lot of politicians, who keep people in fear and trade on prejudices so they will buy more guns and support the NRA. Unfortunately, with the aid of some spineless, bought and payed for politicians, it works. People that don't live here or have never lived here and don't have much insight into it except for what they read in the press are understandably confused at the utter bizarreness of the situation. I live here and I don't get it.

One gets whiffs of a grassroots movement to start making some sensible controlls on guns, especially automatic weapons. I think it is starting to change, if only because it has to.

And there's always the possibility that the Supreme Court could revisit the 2nd ammendment interpretation to recognize the obvious "...well organized militia..." portion. Won't be this court, but a new one is on the way.

[rickschoppers]

One of your most comprehensive posts Mr.G, and I agree with most of what you said. Kudos.

Green sent.

[AntRobertson]

I think there is a difference between changing gun rights and "war fever", which was the case after 9/11. Much easier to motivate the masses into focused action when there is an outside enemy to aim at. I suppose that's why this same sense of "war fever" does not follow these gun massacres. Nobody has fired up the Might Wurlitzer, aka the propoganda machine that sells wars, military budgets, etc.

That's a very good point.

I've actually seen a very, very good documentary on pretty much that issue but - frustratingly and for the life of me - I'm blanking on the name right now?! 'The March to War', 'The Drums of War'... ??

Something like that. I've Googled but it's still doing my head in.

[Edit]

Thank fock, I've just remembered!

'War Made Easy: How Presidents & Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death'.

Excellent viewing.

[panama hat]

How do you think the American public will react when one of their Constitutional rights IS taken away

Habeas Corpus anyone? Don't see too many people storming the barricades

[Cujo]

Here's a couple of interesting articles about how people that shouldn't do get hold of guns.

Gun control advocates hail 'significant' victory in Wisconsin gun shop case
Decision favouring police officers who sued gun dealer believed to be the first such lawsuit successfully fought against the gun industry in the US for 10 years
Patrick Dunphy
Patrick Dunphy, the lawyer representing the police officers who won the Wisconsin case, said they sued the gun shop for a wider cause than their own. Photograph: Rick Wood/AP
Joanna Walters in New York

Advocates for stronger gun safety laws have hailed a rare victory in a lawsuit brought by victims of a shooting against the gun dealer that sold the pistol used to injure them.

A landmark case concluded in Wisconsin late on Tuesday with a jury awarding more than $5m in damages to two police officers who were shot by an 18-year-old who had paid an older friend to buy a gun for him illegally at the dealership.

It is believed to be the first such lawsuit successfully fought against the gun industry in the US in the 10 years since federal legislation was passed to protect gun makers and sellers from legal action at the state and federal level.

It was only the second such lawsuit to get to the jury stage at trial in that time, with the other case having been found in favor of the gun shop in a court case in Alaska in the summer.

Patrick Dunphy, the lawyer representing the Milwaukee police officers who won the latest case in Wisconsin, said that they sued the gun shop for a wider cause than just their own.

“The goal was both to achieve justice for themselves but also for others in this community. We need to clean things up around here,” Dunphy told the Guardian on Wednesday.

He added that their unusual victory should give hope to other victims around the nation trying to sue gun shops or firearms manufacturers after a shooting, but warned that such cases face high hurdles and his clients won against the odds.

“If some gun dealers around the country realize that they may have their feet held to the fire because of the punitive damages in this case, then that’s a bonus. I hope they listen to this verdict,” Dunphy said.

The gun dealer in the Wisconsin case was shown to have sold a firearm in a transaction known as a “straw purchase”, which is illegal under federal law.

But the business and its owners were not prosecuted by the authorities for the crime, which would have been the role of the federal government’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). It was instead the victims of a crime committed by the man who illegally acquired the gun, who had to sue in civil court, Dunphy explained.

“Funds to the ATF have been dramatically cut. The major enforcement arm of the government has been gutted by budget cuts going back a decade. We were very fortunate in this civil case to have irrefutable evidence on our side,” Dunphy added.

The ATF has experienced severe pressure on its funding and personnel.

The firearms civil case in Wisconsin was brought by Milwaukee police officer Bryan Norberg and now-ex officer Graham Kunisch against Badger Guns, a store on the outskirts of the city.

It took five years to come to trial and ended in Milwaukee County circuit court late on Tuesday when the jury found the gun store liable in the wounding of the two officers.

Norberg and Kunisch were both shot in the face in 2009 during a street stop of 18-year-old Julius Burton.

He shot them with a pistol he had acquired just five weeks earlier from Badger Guns. Burton was too young legally to buy a firearm but had gone into the store with 21-year-old acquaintance Jacob Collins and pointed out the semi-automatic pistol he wanted from the display case, an act that was caught on surveillance tape.

The clerk in the store then helped Collins fill out federal forms, correcting certain entries, which betrayed the fact that the younger man was the intended recipient, the court had heard.

The jury retired on Monday and after nine hours of deliberations decided late on Tuesday to award the case to the plaintiffs.

They ordered the gun store to pay Norberg, who was shot through the mouth, $1.5m, and Kunisch, who lost an eye and suffered brain damage, $3.6m, with an additional $730,000 awarded against the store in punitive damages.

Victory is a ‘significant’ one
The verdict came on the same day as the first Democratic presidential debate, during which the leading candidates made a rare but fierce foray into the topic of gun control, vying for how they would seek to improve gun safety in the wake of yet another deadly college shooting earlier in October.


'It's about time': guns become serious debate issue for first time since 2000
Read more
“The fact that candidates running for president are almost climbing over one another to bring the laws into public discussion is a positive sign. They value public safety over loyalty to the gun lobby and the prospect for progress on this is more possible today that it was just a couple of years ago, or even 24 hours ago,” Adam Skaggs, senior counsel at campaign group Everytown For Gun Safety, said on Wednesday, saying the coincidence with Tuesday’s court case was a positive one.

He said the verdict in the Wisconsin case was “significant” and a leap forward for handling rogue dealers who sell guns to criminals in the US.

“The vast majority of gun dealers make every effort to comply with the law, but there are a small percentage of scofflaws who are responsible for the sale of a huge proportion of the guns that end up being diverted into crime,” Skaggs said.

Badger Guns and its predecessor store in the same location just west of Milwaukee, Badger Outdoors, both owned by members of the same family, were the top sellers of guns that were recovered during crimes in the city for a decade. In 2005, Badger Outdoors was the nation’s top seller of guns recovered after use in crimes, with 537 such weapons, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

Dunphy also complained that data about gun crimes has been largely kept hidden in the last decade because of federal legislation that protects the gun industry.

“As long as Congress is controlled by people, whether Republican or Democrat, who are in favor of guns being sold to anybody with minimal or no restrictions, the laws are not going to change. The people who control Congress and its appropriations are very beholden to the National Rifle Association,” said Dunphy.

The Democratic presidential candidates debate gun control during their first debate on Tuesday night.
He said Norberg was “overcome with emotion” by the verdict on Tuesday, while Kusisch was relieved but “stoic”. Both the plaintiffs declined to talk to the media after the case was over.

Adam Skaggs said that Congress had virtually “slammed the door to the courthouse shut” in 2005 after passing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act that protects gun makers and gun dealers from lawsuits.

Many individuals and cities have tried to sue various aspects of the industry in the last 10 years, but almost always “the cases get thrown out at the earliest point”, Skaggs said.

The act does not protect companies that can be shown to have sold guns illegally, however, prompting the straw purchase negligence lawsuit against Badger Guns, which Skaggs described as an egregious case.

Patrick Dunphy said he supported the citizen’s right to bear arms under the second amendment to the US constitution but that rogue dealers such as Badger Guns were a “plague in the community”.

The jury was not told during the trial that the original store on the site, Badger Outdoors, owned by Walter Allan and Mike Beatovic, had almost lost its license in 2006 for making questionable gun sales.

It also did not know that Allan’s son, Adam Allan, then transformed the business into Badger Guns but its license was revoked in 2011 for making unlawful sales.

Allan’s other son, Michael Allan, now runs another gun shop at the location, according to the Journal Sentinel.

Walter and Michael Allan and Beatovic were present in court at times during the trial but did not turn up for the verdict on Tuesday.

The defendants’ counsel argued during the trial that their insurance would not cover them if they were found liable, Dunphy recalled.

Badger Guns has appealed against the verdict.

Dunphy said his side will now have to argue through the courts that the shop’s insurance is obliged to pay the damages awarded by the jury.

“I have no idea what Badger Guns’ assets are but I suspect they are likely to be worth very little,” he said.

And the appeals process could drag on for years, Dunphy said, before there is any hope of Norberg and Kunisch receiving any of the jury’s awards.

“Whether they are going to see a dime of it or not, that’s an open question,” he said.

Gun control advocates hail 'significant' victory in Wisconsin gun shop case | US news | The Guardian

A gunrunner who smuggled more than 100 weapons from Atlanta and Pittsburgh into New York City on cheap interstate passenger buses bragged about it in a cellphone call to his ex-girlfriend while carrying a cache in a duffel bag on the streets of Manhattan, prosecutors said on Wednesday.

“I’ve got MAC-10s on me, an SK assault rifle and four handguns and I’m walking through New York,” Michael Bassier said in the intercepted phone call in March, according to authorities.

The conversation — evidence in a year-long undercover probe of a gun-trafficking ring — demonstrated the persistent threat of guns that are bought in states with lax gun control laws, resold to criminals in New York and used in shootings, authorities said at a news conference announcing the arrests.

Bassier, 31, was among eight reputed members of the gun ring facing conspiracy and other charges. He was being held without bail following an arraignment on Tuesday; there was no immediate response to a message left on Wednesday with his attorney.

The takedown follows a series of similar investigations over the past several years, including recent ones targeting guns smuggled from the south in private cars and commercial airliners. While New York City has some of the strictest gun control laws, the cases show the need for federal legislation to help address the problem, said the Brooklyn district attorney, Kenneth Thompson.

“So we had guns in a car, guns on a plane and now guns on a bus,” Thompson said. “How many different ways to we have to try to get to these guns before we wake up as a country and realize that we have to stop the bloodshed?”

An undercover New York police department officer infiltrated the ring in 2014 and persuaded Bassier to make him his exclusive customer, authorities said. During the course of the investigation the suspect made 12 trips by Chinatown-based buses to Atlanta and six trips by car to Pittsburgh to purchase semi-automatic pistols and assault weapons, they said.

Bassier recruited straw purchasers to pay between $150 to $300 per gun at gun stores and pawn shops and on websites in their home states, then resold them for $800 to $1,200, authorities said. In all he provided 112 weapons to the undercover in transactions that often took places in a Walgreens parking lot in Brooklyn, authorities said.

The wiretap evidence shows Bassier knew exactly what he was doing, prosecutors said. “I’m selling them the right way and the wrong way,” he told his ex. “When I’m out of state, like Atlanta and Georgia and all that, it’s all legal ... but in New York it’s completely illegal.”

The woman expressed dismay, telling Bassier: “I thought you said you’ve changed.”

His response: “I have.”

Bragging gunrunner brought small arsenal into New York ? prosecutors | US news | The Guardian

[harrybarracuda]

“Funds to the ATF have been dramatically cut. The major enforcement arm of the government has been gutted by budget cuts going back a decade."

That's what your NRA subscription buys you.

[panama hat]

The solution is, clearly, more guns

[hazz]

Personally I am enjoying my right to walk the streets of london, going into bars etc without having to give a thought to the the risks of getting shot by some fool with a gun, a criminal or a policman. infact the only thing thats infringing on my rightsat the moment, are the fuckwhit monkeys who ride their bikes though red lights, at night with no lights. still getter bikes than guns in their hands.

[harrybarracuda]

And the award for fuckwit of the day goes to:

A three year old boy in Chicago has died after he was accidentally shot in the head by his six-year-older brother, police have said.

Chicago police said the toddler was shot around 9:05pm on Saturday and carried to a hospital by a relative. He was later pronounced dead at a different hospital.

The father of the two boys has been charged with felony child endangerment. According to police, he had knowingly stored the loaded gun on top of a refrigerator where his children were able to access the weapon.

Toddler dies after accidentally being shot in head by six-year-old brother | Americas | News | The Independent

[panama hat]

^ At least the parent was charged . . . quite simple, though, the three year old should have been armed.
What will the NRA do about this clear obstruction of the constitution, bill of rights, bible etc...

[RPETER65]

C'mon Ant, poor analogy. You can do better than that.

How so? I think it's perfectly apt:

Terrorism = loss of lives; perfectly happy to give up rights to prevent it
Guns = loss of many more lives; somehow giving up rights to prevent it is unrealistic

Who says Americans are perfectly happy to give up their rights?

[panama hat]

C'mon Ant, poor analogy. You can do better than that.

How so? I think it's perfectly apt:

Terrorism = loss of lives; perfectly happy to give up rights to prevent it
Guns = loss of many more lives; somehow giving up rights to prevent it is unrealistic

Who says Americans are perfectly happy to give up their rights?

You haven't kept up with the thread, have you

[AntRobertson]

Who says Americans are perfectly happy to give up their rights?

It was a figure of speech.

Who says that you're being predictably specious and engaging fallacy mode again?

Me, that's who.

[panama hat]

Uuuhhhh, rhetorical questions don't sit well with rpeters - he's too busy taking the bible literally

[bobo746]

Man charged after son fatally shoots 3-year-old released on bond

A man has been released from jail on bond after being charged with child endangerment for the accidental fatal shooting of his 3-year-old son Saturday night in Humboldt Park.
Michael Santiago bought a revolver to protect himself after the former gang member was tagged with the dangerous label of “snitch” because he testified at the murder trial of another gang member, prosecutors said Sunday at his bond hearing.
But his plan went terribly wrong.

[harrybarracuda]

[Troy]

Those eggs are highly dangerous, having caused an incredible three fatalities in 40 years. (Too lazy to provide a link to The Independent) I didn't realise they were being smuggled in with huge fines for being caught. Safer sticking to guns....

[Neverna]

Here’s an interesting (and fatal) incident arising out of carrying guns in public, this time in Israel.


Israeli soldier kills Jewish civilian in 'identity mishap' - BBC News


An Israeli soldier killed a Jewish Israeli civilian in Jerusalem after each confronted the other thinking they were an Arab attacker.

A Jewish Israeli man confronted two soldiers boarding a bus in central Jerusalem early on Thursday, thinking they were potential attackers.

Police said the soldiers suspected the man himself was a would-be attacker and asked to see his ID. The man refused and scuffle ensued, during which the man grabbed one of the soldiers' guns and was shot and killed by the second soldier.

[harrybarracuda]

Here’s an interesting (and fatal) incident arising out of carrying guns in public, this time in Israel.


Israeli soldier kills Jewish civilian in 'identity mishap' - BBC News


An Israeli soldier killed a Jewish Israeli civilian in Jerusalem after each confronted the other thinking they were an Arab attacker.

A Jewish Israeli man confronted two soldiers boarding a bus in central Jerusalem early on Thursday, thinking they were potential attackers.

Police said the soldiers suspected the man himself was a would-be attacker and asked to see his ID. The man refused and scuffle ensued, during which the man grabbed one of the soldiers' guns and was shot and killed by the second soldier.

Did you miss that one in Texas a few weeks ago, where some high-spirited gun-carrying member of the public decided to help some bloke who was being carjacked, and instead of shooting his assailants, shot him in the head?

[Neverna]

Did you miss that one in Texas a few weeks ago, where some high-spirited gun-carrying member of the public decided to help some bloke who was being carjacked, and instead of shooting his assailants, shot him in the head?

Yes, I did.

Armed good Samaritan tries to stop carjacking, accidentally shoots victim in head

How awful.

If only more people had guns to shoot the bad guys.

[harrybarracuda]

Yes, why wasn't this dog carrying her firearm, she had no way to defend herself, it's her own fault for, er, being a dog.

Video of policeman shooting dead pet dog after she ran up to greet him in Florida | Metro News

[Black Heart]

Did you miss that one in Texas a few weeks ago, where some high-spirited gun-carrying member of the public decided to help some bloke who was being carjacked, and instead of shooting his assailants, shot him in the head?

Yes, I did.

Armed good Samaritan tries to stop carjacking, accidentally shoots victim in head

How awful.

If only more people had guns to shoot the bad guys.

Now that's what you call a......FAIL.