Thread: Pali and Thai

I read there are similarities to Pali and Thai. True? If so, this might be an incentive to learn Thai as I have an interest in reading the original Buddhist texts.

I read there are similarities to Pali and Thai. True?

No, not at all. Pali is a highly inflected, case-marked, polysyllabic Indo-European language. Thai is none of these things. There are a lot of Pali and Sanskrit loan words in Thai and knowing Pali and Sanskrit would help you understand many Thai words but structurally, the languages are worlds apart.

I have an interest in reading the original Buddhist texts.

Luckily, the Pali canon has been translated into English. Unless you're going to devote several years of serious study to the task or you're a monastic or more likely both, you're not going to learn Pali sufficiently well to read the suttas in their original(-ish) form.

^So why do most Thai Monks read and write Pali?

Thanks, seems I'll have to rely on translators skills. I am drawn to Steven Batchelor's interpretations, but do wonder at times if a long bow is being drawn.

^^ I believe their tradition is closely associated with the Pali canon.

So why do most Thai Monks read and write Pali?

The ones that do learn it do so because Pali is the sacred language of Theravada Buddhism. There are Pali exams for monastics but I'm not sure how many get really proficient at it. I would imagine a fairly major proportion don't get much beyond learning the chants.

Thanks, seems I'll have to rely on translators skills. I am drawn to Steven Batchelor's interpretations, but do wonder at times if a long bow is being drawn.

Bhikku Bodhi has obviously translated pretty big slices of the canon, plus there are online resources like Sutta Central and Access to Insight. Stephen Batchelor's interpretations of the texts are seriously non-standard. If that's what floats your boat, all well and good, but you have to squint pretty hard to square them with the tradition.

Originally Posted by Passing Through

The ones that do learn it do so because Pali is the sacred language of Theravada Buddhism. There are Pali exams for monastics but I'm not sure how many get really proficient at it. I would imagine a fairly major proportion don't get much beyond learning the chants.

Cheers - makes sense.

Originally Posted by Dapper

^So why do most Thai Monks read and write Pali?

Alai wa..?!

Most [99.5%] contemporary monks don't comprehend the written or spoken Pali.

What they do is memorize the Pali chants, today mixed with Thai......and the only time that you will hear or know of it.

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Most [99.5%] contemporary monks don't comprehend the written or spoken Pali.

Must only be the ones at Wat Bang Phra then.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Dapper

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Most [99.5%] contemporary monks don't comprehend the written or spoken Pali.

Must only be the ones at Wat Bang Phra then.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you're not really familiar with any Thai monk/Wat community.....yes?

^ And, this fooker knows!

3-4000 monks (from a population of around 200,000) take some kind of degree in Buddhism each year which involves testing in Pali so that's going to add up to slightly more than 0.5% of the total. I don't know how difficult those exams are but, equally, neither does thaimeme.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you're not really familiar with any Thai monk/Wat community.....yes?

What's your knowledge of Pali like? Better or worse than your English?

As has been pointed out by other more learned posters than myself Dapper; "most monks" DON'T read and or write pali, they lip sync the soundz.

FWIW; that temple Wat Bang Phra (วัดบางพระ) is famous for one thing.. The "magic tattoos" (สักยันต์) they churn out. It's the frickin' "tiger temple" o' thai tattooz...

I agree with Passing Through; there are a TON of pali/sanskrit wordz in thai. However with that being said, there're a TON of Khmer wordz in thai too (seeing as that's the language spoken by the people who governed the entire place before the thaiz ganged up and stole it from them.

To me reading buddhist texts would be like watching paint dry.. Boring as the day is long.

Let us know how you get on with it Munted, when you're not having paid sex with office gurls who aren't prostitutes that is..

You got diverse hobbies there man, good on you for staying busy...

Thanks for the encouragement toddaniels, as a learner secular buddhist I have some way to go before giving up on carnal pleasures. I am in the process of expiating, as it were. It's tough but must be done. There are some boring buddhist texts and some very exciting buddhist texts. You might have been unlucky.

Pali influences in Thai language can be compared to Arabic influence to Turkish. Two completely different languages.

Learning one wouldn't really help you much to learn the other.

In additional Pali words imported to Thai language tends to be pronounced according to Thai pronunciation and may differ to the original Pali pronunciation.

Mole is correct, pali/sanskrit wordz written in thai take more than a little creative license as far as how they're pronounced and some bear very little resemblance to the original word.

I would imagine given the sheer number of buddhist material out there, someone had to come up with something interesting, I just haven't found it. Because a lot of it falls into the "thai religious dialect" or what I call "monk-speak", you need to invest a healthy amount of time learning the specialized vocab to understand the stuff. I applaud anyone who does it.

BTW: Munted, what is a secular buddhist? Wiki didn't exactly enlighten me all that much;

Secular Buddhism—sometimes also referred to as agnostic Buddhism, Buddhist agnosticism, ignostic Buddhism, atheistic Buddhism, pragmatic Buddhism, Buddhist atheism, or Buddhist secularism—is a broad term for an emerging form of Buddhism and secular spirituality that is based on humanist, skeptical, and/or agnostic values, as well as pragmatism and (often) naturalism, rather than religious (or more specifically supernatural or paranormal) beliefs.

All I could glean from it is that it's a version which is heading away from the animistic shamanistic influences which the thai version of buddhism has in healthy doses..

Learning one wouldn't really help you much to learn the other.

I'm learning Sanskrit at the moment and it does give you a deeper understanding of Thai, particularly in terms of etymology. But if you're not interested in languages and your motivation for learning Thai is purely instrumental, then adding Pali or Sanskrit to the mix is probably a complete waste of time.

In additional Pali words imported to Thai language tends to be pronounced according to Thai pronunciation and may differ to the original Pali pronunciation.

Yes, though that would be all of them, not just that they 'tend' to. There are a ton of sounds in Sanskrit which don't exist in Thai (or in English) so they fall out straight away but you can still recognize the words.

Is the chanting done at house ceremonies and funerals in Pali, Thai, or both? I see the monks using sheets to remember it all, or is a chant crutch of some sort?

Interestingly enough or not; was just at one of those anniversary celebrations at a thai language school which was hitting it's 3rd year.

They brought in 9 monks, fed 'em, gave each of them one of those yellow buckets of assorted stuff. The monks sit on mats and chant out something which I recorded (only audio)..
Chanting

It appeared from what I saw the old monks were pretty much carrying the tune and were the loudest. It looked to me like some of the younger ones (which I call "part-time monk-ettes) were lip-syncing (poorly!). It's a good thing they had their faces covered with that fan dealy.

As an OFF TOPIC aside; what's with the stuff in those yellow buckets? A person might surmise monks have enough of that stuff floating around the temple, seeing as everyone gives 'em those buckets. I'm sure there's a closet somewhere in every temple where they have those buckets stacked to the rafters.

I think the Thai started using Pali as the Sri Lankans do so they could move away from Khmer Sanskrit tradition too. There's a nationalist element as I think the Cannons exist in both ancient languages.

Originally Posted by toddaniels

BTW: Munted, what is a secular buddhist? Wiki didn't exactly enlighten me all that much;

Google 'Stephen Bachelor'. He's the leading edge of it. Basically is Buddhism stripped of it's latter cultural manifestations, taken to the original texts, and given a rationalist Western interpretation.

Originally Posted by toddaniels

I'm sure there's a closet somewhere in every temple where they have those buckets stacked to the rafters.

There is. The buckets are empty though, anything the monks don't need is usually given away as charity. That's pretty much the way charity is done here, give donations to the monks, gain merit, the monks pass it on to the deserving, get merit for that. A double whammy.

I've heard quite a few people complain that it's not fair that monks get so much in the way of donations (and clearly some monks do abuse that) but in general the monks act as middlemen between the givers of charity and the receivers of charity and take very little for themselves.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by toddaniels

I'm sure there's a closet somewhere in every temple where they have those buckets stacked to the rafters.

There is. The buckets are empty though, anything the monks don't need is usually given away as charity. That's pretty much the way charity is done here, give donations to the monks, gain merit, the monks pass it on to the deserving, get merit for that. A double whammy.

I've heard quite a few people complain that it's not fair that monks get so much in the way of donations (and clearly some monks do abuse that) but in general the monks act as middlemen between the givers of charity and the receivers of charity and take very little for themselves.

Which should spark the more civil challenge of the expected "cash" donations that are witness at nearly every sorted activity. And certainly conflicts with the basic romantic ideals of Buddhism applying to humble existence and rejection worldly goods....

The monk hood, today, has become an outlet for escape because the vocation has become profitably secure for the individual - regardless of their rank and standing. It's become a job, less a calling.

There was a time, not too long ago, that offerings of food and assorted sundries were extended and excepted. Monetary gifts were not the norm...not even considered.

Today, at every tamboon; blessing; or Buddhists event or activity requires a substantial cash flow - which is demeaning to the calling, the Wat, and community at large. Almost become competition and class orientation within respected communities - who contributes the most and who doesn't.

I dare say, Dr. Bob , that you need observe a little more carefully towards the cash flow that generates through [any] the Wat and the so call selfless and charitable protocol that you [et al] believe that exist.

Yes, if any reader is considering immersion into Thai tradition, would be best avoided. Not to say that Buddhism has no insight for modernity, only that if you're from a western background your engagement with Buddhism would be best served from a rationalist perspective. You might find that a search for 'Stephen Bachelor' will satisfy that requirement.