Thread: Romanization of Falong/Farang/Farung

Originally Posted by Zooheekock

However they have different tones (as does all the words in my list).

Not quite.

khao (enter) is เข้า. Falling with a short vowel.
khao (rice) ข้าว is ข้าว. Falling with a long vowel.
khao (mountain) is เขา. Rising with a short vowel.
khao (he/she) is เขา or เค้า. Either rising with a short vowel or, more normally, high with a short vowel.
khao (white) is ขาว. Rising with a long vowel.

I don't think you can get a full house with khao but you could have had news (ข่าว) to at least get a low tone.

And it's an unfortunate choice of words because you can give fully accurate IPA transcriptions of these which only use standard Roman letters. They will all be either [kʰaw] or [kʰaːw] (with the relevant IPA tone marks).

----

^ Or you could use numbers, as in pinyin.

Actually here are the correct tones, Thai spelling, and tone rules for the words listed.

enter เข้า falling tone due to mai toh with high class consonant

rice ข้าว falling tone due to mai toh with high class consonant


mountain เขา rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with ao)

he/she เขา rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with
ao)

he/she (familiar) เค้า high tone due to mai toh with low class consonant

white ขาว rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with long vowel)

Notice he/she has two different spellings (and tones) based upon how it is used.

There are also other "khao" Thai words that would give the "full house" (i.e. complete range of tones). I just submitted these words to see how Rural Surin would phonetically spell them without using some type of tone marks.

RickThai

[QUOTE=nidhogg;2468406]

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Heck, my brain hurts just trying to read that, DrBob.


Must admit, it is not often you see a poster get demolished as frequently and comprehensively as RT, and yet he still keeps comming back......

nidhogg,

You need to have more self-confidence in yourself and learn to think independently.

All of my posted views are based upon personal knowledge, experience, education, and intelligence.

Like anyone I am occasionally wrong (at least on some aspects of my posts), but 98% of what you see posted in these forums is nothing but OPINION.

There is no right or wrong answer. I will repeat, there is no right or wrong answer.

Once you understand that, then you will understand why I don't get upset when someone (or everyone) disagrees with me. (It usually means that I am just smarter than most of the posters and they are limited in their ability to understand my views).

If I had an average intellect then I would think like the average poster, but I am not average. Hence it doesn't bother me when "average" people call me stupid or thick or whatever, because I know better.

I know this sounds arrogant, but it is the truth.

Santi,

RickThai

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

Some of us aren't buying this "universal" phonetic spelling based on a European standard.

Clowns.

^ Perhaps you could supply a few examples of sounds found in natural languages which can't be transcribed using the IPA.

There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English.

Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system:

IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj

IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems.

ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR

The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.

Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi

Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.

In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts.

Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems).

So apparently DrBob’s IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration.

Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.

Santi,

RickThai

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

You might want to test your theory before you post it as fact!

RickThai

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

Some of us aren't buying this "universal" phonetic spelling based on a European standard.

Clowns.

You make a good point. Any "standard" comes about through a committee of experts who meet and argue and fight until some "compromise" is finally reached. This does not mean every expert is in agreement, or that the "standard" is the final word. It is just one way to do something as agreed upon by that particular body at that particular time.

Having worked in a regulated field (Medical devices) for 25 years, I have seen standards come and go. You basically pick which standard you want your device to comply with and follow that edition of that standard.

Thinking any "standard" is gospel is a fools errand.

JMO, of course.

RickThai

Originally Posted by RickThai

There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English. Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system: IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems. ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison. Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison. In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts. Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems). So apparently DrBob’s IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration. Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.

And exactly how many of them tell you that ฝรั่ง (fà ràŋ) is pronounced "falong"?

Originally Posted by RickThai

I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang)

^ Hold on a minute while Rick consults with his main advisor, Dan Quayle.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by RickThai

There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English. Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system: IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems. ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison. Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison. In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts. Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems). So apparently DrBob’s IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration. Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.

And exactly how many of them tell you that ฝรั่ง (fà ràŋ) is pronounced "falong"?

Originally Posted by RickThai

I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang)

It doesn't matter. That is the beauty of being an original, independent thinker. I don't have to have some organization tell me how to transliterate a foreign word.

(Actually I have seen "falong" in other places, so its not exactly just me who uses that spelling).

Santi,

RickThai

Originally Posted by RickThai

Once you understand that, then you will understand why I don't get upset when someone (or everyone) disagrees with me. (It usually means that I am just smarter than most of the posters and they are limited in their ability to understand my views).

Originally Posted by RickThai

If I had an average intellect then I would think like the average poster, but I am not average. Hence it doesn't bother me when "average" people call me stupid or thick or whatever, because I know better.

Originally Posted by RickThai

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

You might want to test your theory before you post it as fact!

RickThai

...and you may want to check out the difference between a reputable dictionary and an : "AUA Language Center Thai Course"

Originally Posted by nidhogg

...and you may want to check out the difference between a reputable dictionary and an : "AUA Language Center Thai Course"

For those interested, I checked 12 different pronunciation systems for "falang" and this is what I found.

One spelled it as "farung" (which happens to be the closest mapping to the Thai script).
Ten spelled it as "farang" (which is probably the most common phonetic spelling).
One (Dr Bob's IPA) spelled it as "faraᶇ" (which requires a special character).

As far as tones,

Three of the systems did not show tones or stress.
One used superscripts of H,M,L, F, and R.
Eight used some variation of `,',^,ᵛ for low, high, falling, and rising respectively.

Also, out of the 4 Thai learning books I have, three of them stated that Thais commonly pronounce the "r" as an "l".

One of them also stated that the sila "u" sound is not pronounced as in English, but is similar to the "o" as in "house".

So you see, my preference for "falong" is not without merit, even though it is not commonly used.

Santi,

RickThai

Originally Posted by Jofrey

As the Thais all pronounce the word differently it is really a case of choose your spelling isn't it?

I'd rather not use it all personally.

You got a point about how Thais pronounce the word, but you lost me as to why you don't favor the word.

It is my understanding, that the French were the first Europeans to have an Embassy in Thailand, and the French people were referred to as "Falong-set" (probably because they are light-colored and "falong" is the word for guava - a white-colored fruit).

I know that in today's society, some Thais occasionally use it in a derogatory fashion, but not all Thais. To some, it is just a way to describe non-Asians; particularly the lightskinned variety.

I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though. Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).

Anyone know for sure?

RickThai

Originally Posted by RickThai

Originally Posted by Jofrey

As the Thais all pronounce the word differently it is really a case of choose your spelling isn't it?

I'd rather not use it all personally.

"Falong-set"

"falong" is the word for guava -

dom-dom (black).

Anyone know for sure?

RickThai

You are having a laugh aren't you?

Sadly, like Gravey Davey I think he's 100% up front, he really means what he says.

Originally Posted by RickThai

I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though. Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).

Anyone know for sure?

RickThai

Negros are referred to as 'peau dum' by Thais or simply, Negros.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by RickThai

I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though. Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).

Anyone know for sure?

RickThai

Negros are referred to as 'peau dum' by Thais or simply, Negros.

Thanks for the update.

Back in the 1970s, I always heard Thais refer to them as "dom dom poo-chai", but I haven't heard any Thais make any reference to them at all in the last 40 years.

RickThai

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

nidgogg,

So are you going to use "faraᶇ" in all your posts from now on?

RickThai

I found this on another forum and it was too funny (and true) not to share:

"I once asked my Thai girlfriend why it was that the Falang used the word ''Farang' and yet the Thai people always said Falang.

I thought her answer explained it perfectly as was her pronunciation:

"Because 'Farang' is the 'Falang' way to say 'Falang'.""

RickThai

oh good, LickThai

Originally Posted by DrAndy

oh good, LickThai

Do you think it's worth pointing out to him the difference between light L and dark L and that Thais don't really say falang?
Nah, didn't think so.