Minorities

**Eliminator** · 24-05-2006, 07:53 AM

bb, You stated this pearl of wisdom:

I'm a meritocrat and if everybody else was, there wouldn't be a problem. In a meritocracy, you simply hire the best person for the job, you treat people with respect regardless. Unfortunately, that's not how it has been, because the people who've been running things didn't think like that. So things are screwed up. Trying to fix it makes people like you (white, male, not very smart, I'd guess) feel threatened.[/quote]

Your system has gone to the other extreme to where ONLY the highest educated can get advancement.

You state: "Unfortunately, that's not how it has been,". What is "that" that you are talking about, is it the "treat people with respect" or "hire the best person for the job"?

Take a look at what others like RDN and MeMock are saying and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about. You might like the meritocrat attitude that you voice but it's not happenning in the real world.

I'm not threatened by any of this as I do not have to compete with others for a job anymore so you must be the one that is: "you (white, male, not very smart, I'd guess) feel threatened." Go put on your dunce cap and sit in the corner.

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

Your system has gone to the other extreme

"My" system (of hiring the best person for the job, giving everyone an equal opportunity to compete for resources and treating everyone respectfully) cannot lead to extremes. It works, but if it has one fault, it's that it's slow. That's why some understandably impatient minorities try to get preferential treatment, and that's why you've got a bug up your arse.

**Storekeeper** · 24-05-2006, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

Do you guys know how to read?

It's not about offending minorities by calling them names, it's about favoring a minority just because they are a minority.

You know as well as I do that in the US only the white male isn't categorized under some protected class.

**Eliminator** · 24-05-2006, 08:37 AM

I'm not an impatient minority nor do I need to compete for a job. It is thought that your way of thinking does favor elitist society. By the definition of meritocrat, it would be great if society thought this way but it does not. It seems to run to extremes to either side.

mer·i·toc·ra·cy (mĕr'ĭ-tŏk'rə-sē)

n., pl. -cies.

A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
1. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
2. Leadership by such a group.

Meritocracy is, as the suffix "-cracy" implies, a system of government based on rule by ability (merit) rather than by wealth, race or other determinants of social position.
However, the word "meritocracy" is now often used to describe a type of society where wealth, income, and social status are assigned through competition, on the assumption that the winners do indeed deserve (merit) their resulting advantage. As a result, the word has acquired a connotation of Social Darwinism, and is used to describe aggressively competitive societies, with large inequality of income and wealth, contrasted with egalitarian societies.
Meritocratic governments and organizations stress talent, formal education, and competence, rather than existing differences such as social class, ethnicity, or sex. In practice, research on social mobility indicates that all these supposedly neutral criteria favour the children of those who are already privileged in some way.
In a representative democracy where power is theoretically in the hands of the elected representatives, meritocratic elements include the use of expert consultants to help formulate policies, and a meritocratic civil service to implement them. The perennial problem in advocating meritocracy is defining exactly what one means by merit. (Wikipedia)

elitist
adjective

Characteristic of or resembling a snob: snobbish, snobby. Informalhigh-hat, snooty, stuck-up, uppish, uppity. Seeattitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, self-love/modesty.

noun

One who despises people or things regarded as inferior, especially because of social or intellectual pretension: snob. Informalsnoot. Seeattitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, self-love/modesty.

You can't have your cake and eat it to. My point is giving the minority prference over a more qualified person just because they are a minority.

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 11:38 AM

That was an interesting quote from the dictionary - I didn't know there were negative connotations to the idea of a merit-based system, except, as I acknowledged above, that it would be a slow way to put right some of the things that are already wrong with the distribution of wealth, influence and power. And the minorities want a fast way to put things right. So I suppose I can see why they might not like the idea.

But I don't think, fundamentally, we are actually disagreeing - I think the best applicant for a job should get the job. You have to be careful about what 'best' means, obviously. And you have to make sure that suitably qualified candidates from minorities have the chance to apply and are treated fairly. But if a heterosexual white male turns out to be the best guy for the job, I say he gets it. Simple as that.

Now excuse me, I have to interview three candidates for the position of my secretary. One is 50 and she has oodles of experience and every other qualification under the sun. One is a well-qualified bloke. And the other is a bird with big tits.

**MeMock** · 24-05-2006, 11:41 AM

Its seems like you two are actually in agreement but are trying to baffle each other with big words and bullshit

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by MeMock

Its seems like you two are actually in agreement but are trying to baffle each other with big words and bullshit

Correct.

(But I don't agree with his analysis that somehow he is suffering because minorities are starting to assert their rights - would he swap places with a single one of them? I think not).

**Butch** · 24-05-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

MeMock, the best answer that I can come up with is becasue of all the PC fuckwits that have been running around for the last 30-40 years. Granted, some reform was needed, but not to the extent where it keeps the majority down on their knees. New reforms need to implimented to stop this cycle of the kids growing up thinking the world owes them something because their parents got it. Women having more kids for no other reason but to get more money and benefits and not work. You see it in Australia, England and the US. Hell, why work, I can be on the dole or welfare and make more money than working.

White man, using white money with no idea of the Aboriginal world view keep making the same mistakes...money is not the answer....I'm not sure I know what that answer is but 200 years of bullshit money throwing hasn't helped anyone...

So memock...what do you do to try and help the situation? moan? live off their suffering? Why do you live in Kunnunurra when all you get is a bad deal?

I do hope your not one ofthose religious supremists that have caused most of the trouble in the Kimberley.

**Eliminator** · 24-05-2006, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Originally Posted by MeMock

Its seems like you two are actually in agreement but are trying to baffle each other with big words and bullshit

Correct.

(But I don't agree with his analysis that somehow he is suffering because minorities are starting to assert their rights - would he swap places with a single one of them? I think not).

Benbaa, I never said that I myself was suffering because of this, in fact I have said that it really doesn't affect me ( a couple times). I don't have to compete in any job or biz with a minority. There are many things that I mentoined besides employment that is affected by this (minority rules) way of thinking. We are in aggreement on this and I tried to give you a green but it states I have to pass to others first.

**Eliminator** · 24-05-2006, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Butch

Originally Posted by Eliminator

MeMock, the best answer that I can come up with is becasue of all the PC fuckwits that have been running around for the last 30-40 years. Granted, some reform was needed, but not to the extent where it keeps the majority down on their knees. New reforms need to implimented to stop this cycle of the kids growing up thinking the world owes them something because their parents got it. Women having more kids for no other reason but to get more money and benefits and not work. You see it in Australia, England and the US. Hell, why work, I can be on the dole or welfare and make more money than working.

White man, using white money with no idea of the Aboriginal world view keep making the same mistakes...money is not the answer....I'm not sure I know what that answer is but 200 years of bullshit money throwing hasn't helped anyone...

So memock...what do you do to try and help the situation? moan? live off their suffering? Why do you live in Kunnunurra when all you get is a bad deal?

I do hope your not one ofthose religious supremists that have caused most of the trouble in the Kimberley.

Yo butchy boy, I hope you're not one of those PC fuckwits that trys to help people and don't even know what the problem is. There comes a point where people have to help themselves and get things done by themselves. How many Aboriginal councils are there that are supposed to be doing just this, help the other aboriginals. Either the money gets sucked up by the councils or ends up being wasted by the aboriginals themselves. Used to be that the Abos would get a vehicle and run it till it ran out of gas and then shoot the hell out of it and not give a rats ass, just say, "the council will buy me a new one. Been gone for a long time so don't know if it still goes on but the people have to help themselves and not depend on others to support them.

What bright boy, are you doing to help the aboriginals?

**MeMock** · 24-05-2006, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Butch

Originally Posted by Eliminator

MeMock, the best answer that I can come up with is becasue of all the PC fuckwits that have been running around for the last 30-40 years. Granted, some reform was needed, but not to the extent where it keeps the majority down on their knees. New reforms need to implimented to stop this cycle of the kids growing up thinking the world owes them something because their parents got it. Women having more kids for no other reason but to get more money and benefits and not work. You see it in Australia, England and the US. Hell, why work, I can be on the dole or welfare and make more money than working.

White man, using white money with no idea of the Aboriginal world view keep making the same mistakes...money is not the answer....I'm not sure I know what that answer is but 200 years of bullshit money throwing hasn't helped anyone...

So memock...what do you do to try and help the situation? moan? live off their suffering? Why do you live in Kunnunurra when all you get is a bad deal?

I do hope your not one ofthose religious supremists that have caused most of the trouble in the Kimberley.

We all know that money is not the answer butch. Its people taking control of there own destiny and using what is available (and there is a shit load of help out there for them) to their own (and there peoples) advantage.

So what do I do? As you know I own the local newspaper which has a big role to play with both the locals and state and federal gpovernment.

Obviously we report the news which does include alcohol abuse, sexual assualt, rape (of minors as young as 6 months) murders (our front page this week) etc etc which according to court records is committed by 92% of the time by black people. On the other hand I also sponsor tens of thousands of dollars of cash and advertising each year to groups who are trying to make a difference. I run stories on Aboriginals who have got there shit together and are trying to encourage others to do the same. I would have run hundereds of stories over the past 10 years.

Yes I do moan about the inequality that happens around here but only when provoked by misinformed tree huggers who say that Aboriginals are such a minority group. They are not as much a minority as most people think and the sooner that the southerners and government wakes up to this the better.

For the non Australians reading this 90% of all Australians live within an hour of the coast whilst the majority (unsure of actual stats) of Aboriginals do not but boy do they all have an opinon on it.

I also do realise that Butch has spent some time up north and would have seen first hand some of the issues involved here so I actually thought you might have learnt something whilst here. Obviously not.

SO what are you doing about it Butch?

**Marmite the Dog** · 24-05-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by MeMock

SO what are you doing about it Butch?

He's got himself an Abo 'houseboy'. What more can he do?

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

We are in aggreement on this and I tried to give you a green but it states I have to pass to others first.

I think this has something to do with the reason you can't green me.

Minorities 24-05-2006 08:04 AM Eliminator you're the one with the bug or head up your ass.

That's 8.04 AM today.

**Skulldigger** · 24-05-2006, 03:00 PM

Affirmative action is not a great solution... but still, in the light of all the persecution and systematic attempts to marginalize ethnic minorities that has been going on for hundreds of years, it is pretty lame to have such a big beef with it (since it has been around for what - 30 years or so?

Most people agree in principle that the most qualified person for a job should get it - but when this person becomes most qualified because of racist attitudes in society, then that needs to be solved somehow. The white man is not inherently more intelligent, but he has a greater chance at adapting to society and succeed, because he is given the keys to the majority culture, its value system etc., from an early age (ok, class matters too, white trash do not always get this).

These things become a lot more obvious if you look at another culture than your own. Here in Thailand dark-skinned people from the Northeast have a hard time becoming somebody important, because they are perceived to be in a certain way out of virtue of their skin and dialect. But when they move out of their old setting, they are suddenly on par with their Thai-Chinese cousins (because in the west they are not viewed much differently from each other), and this means they have a greater chance at success. Shows you what fucked-up attitudes can do.

I wish I had a nifty plan to make people less prejudicial, unfortunately I don't.

But the Abos I saw in Australia didnt seem all that happy despite all the positive discrimination.

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Now excuse me, I have to interview three candidates for the position of my secretary. One is 50 and she has oodles of experience and every other qualification under the sun. One is a well-qualified bloke. And the other is a bird with big tits.

OK, job done. The bird with the big tits got the job, obviously. Now I just have to show her how to turn on the computer, how to answer the phone and where to keep her nail polish.

**Eliminator** · 24-05-2006, 03:08 PM

BB, sorry about that, I guess it was this statement of yours that got to me:

Trying to fix it makes people like you (white, male, not very smart, I'd guess) feel threatened. __________________

I've got to learn not to post after every comment.

Oh yes, glad you picked the right person for the job, even if it was agiven who you were going to select. Your sig can't be ignored.

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 03:12 PM

Elim, you don't have to apologise for redding me: I gave you one today, didn't I? It's just a bit of fun, nothing personal.

**cantona** · 24-05-2006, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

Trying to fix it makes people like you (white, male, not very smart, I'd guess) feel threatened

Is Eliminator a black, handicapped lesbian then?

**Butch** · 24-05-2006, 03:41 PM

To Elminator and memock...

I already have stated I don't know what will work. I am not an expert. Far from it...

No I'm not a PC fool either...but what I do know is , whatever has been tried before hasn't worked because the problem solvers have come from the wrong world view. This problem will never be solved, or helped until we start to think outside the box.

I did my best for those I taught in Fitzroy Crossing, 10 of the 18 kids I had in my last class there became the first to graduate from year 12 [not all my work of course...

] Some have returned to start fish farming businesses, tourist trails and painting experiences, so things are getting better.

Nice interview on the ABC a few minutes ago...
I will be listening with interest each and every Wednesday...

**MeMock** · 24-05-2006, 03:48 PM

Crikey - did you hear that did you Butch.

I thought it was a shocker - I had forgotten and had nothing prepared in from of me.

Are you saying nice just to be nice or that it actually did come across ok?

**Butterfly** · 24-05-2006, 03:49 PM

If there were no minorities program, people like ejaculator would be more than happy to throw them stones and burn their houses. The minority programs make them more than animals and therefore they can't be hunted down by white supremacists like Ejaculator and friends

**Butch** · 24-05-2006, 03:50 PM

Nope, it sounded fine...I like the story about the blokewho "borrowed" the car for the night...

Helena Webb sounds like a fun sort of chick too.

**stroller** · 24-05-2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by MeMock

Yeah but Butch - why are they still a minority when they get given so much.

I know you and I have done this to death but for the benifit of others....

I actually feel like a minority in my own town.

There are jobs I cannot have (even though management have said I would get it if I was black)

If I was unelmpyed and wanted the dole I would get less money because I am not black.

If I advertise for someone to work for me I have to be an equal oppurtunity employer where as Aboriginal corporations can advertise for black people only.

When I went to school I got detention If I didnt bring my notepad and pen or correct book. If an black person forgot they got a new one from the cupboard in front of the whole class.

Black kids get paid to go to school.

At a concert last saturday night I line up for a hamburger being sold from the Argyle Diamond mine tent. $5 for me, free if you were black.

When I go fishing I am allowed to keep one barramundi between the size of 55cm and 80cm. If you are black catch whatever you want and whatever size.

i cannot shoot crocodile, brolgas etc but If I was black.....

I could go on and on but my breakfast is getting cold.

Who is the minority here?

Despite being "given so much" they are still underprivileged, which, actually, is the reason they receive preferiential treatment on a number of issues.

As I said earlier, there are examples where this 'PC'-ness appears to have gone tits up, and, not being familiar with your country's situation, I readily admit that what you describe doesn't sound fair.

But, on the other hand, would you want to swap places with one of the minorities who are "given so much"?
Have you ever thought of putting yourself in their shoes and look at the 'privileges' you enjoy as taken for granted?
Little things such as not being sneered at or name-called for who you are, on a daily basis, for decades - for example?

**stroller** · 24-05-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Eliminator

Turd troller: Why should a Pakistani fly the Union Jack?

Elimminator: It's because the Pakistani, Indian or whatever has decided to become an English citizen and as such is supposed to pledge that allegence to his or her new country. At least this is what I think it's supposed to be. You must think that the person is there only for what they can get out of the country and hold no such allegence to their new country. If they or you do not believe this way, then why the hell are you or they there? Go on back to you own country.

Am I obliged to fly the German flag because I'm German? - I think not. Where should a British citizen go back to, as their "own country"? Wouldn't they need a visa and res permit to go 'n live in Pakistan?

tt: Why should a Christian observe Rammadan? Why should I celebrate the Buddha's enlightenment?

I'm not saying that anyone should or is being forced to observe someone else's religion. I don't observe any holidays no matter the religion. I don't get killed because of this. What I am saying is, the minority come in and will state that a store should not show models of Christ in the manger or any other religious type shows to the public. Just because, WE want or like to see these types of displays does NOT mean that you have to observe what they represent. I'm quite sure that if any muslim wanted to post something in their store that was religious based that they would be allowed to and if not, they would be screaming their fuckin heads off, that they were not being understood or excepted.

Any examples of this?

tt: Why should children of atheists be made to read bible quotes?

Where is this being done?

It was done in Germany until the 1970s, I think it's still practised in parts of the US. Christians are fighting to keep the bible in the classroom.

I think it's the other way around where a Christian is not allowed to read bible quotes.

Where are Christians not allowed to read bible quotes? Examples,please.

Damn, you're a thick fuck aren't you?

I've left you to do some research to substantiate what you claim. Let's see who the "thick fuck" around here is...

**benbaaa** · 24-05-2006, 07:24 PM

Stroller, you've probably got time to go and get a cup of tea and a sandwich.

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