Thread: US Presidential Campaign 2008

Add to that the fiscal mess left by the Bush administration and, short of drastically cutting government expenditure, I don't see what other choice the government has- regardless of who gets in.

Norty, if Uncle Obama gets in, he will raise taxes to look after all the people in "need" and will PO alot of the doers who already pay tax. Fek, the ne'er do wells will applaud the move coz the lazy feks probably never paid taxes in their life. The Dems will cut all that spending on military stuff (look at it in relative terms, not as high as other costs) to try to offset the deficit. Sure, the baby-boomers will demand their share of care monies. Where will the funds come from? Higher taxes. America as a new Swedish-style economy? I don't think so.
America was built on capitalist ideals. The brilliant developers and innovators will move to Mexico so they can build on their ideas and make money, paying their employees better wages with lower taxes.

^Jet good points. We could see America become as Europe has, with the productive business people becoming tax exiles and other nonsense. I hope an Obaman administration wouldn't come to that.

It's electioneering time, and predictable that Republicans will push the 'Democrats will tax and spend' mantra. The problem is that the last four administrations show this to be an obvious myth in modern history- the Clinton administration did not tax and spend, indeed it scores sound marks economically. The Bush administration tax cuts landed a windfall to the rich, but the increase in social welfare costs negated and sometimes exceeded the benefits for the majority of the population.

Plus in a remarkable turnaround, eight years of Bush turned the worlds largest creditor nation into the worlds largest debtor. I am confident a more moderate Republican administration wouldn't be such a basket case, but I doubt this rather tired economic mantra will score points with the majority of voters today. Not only are they living with the reality of the current economic situation, but they also face the reality of a government that is effectively being kept afloat by the Chinese and Japs, and a currency that has turned from strong under Clinton to a virtual basket case now.

The Democrats will not miss pointing out these obvious facts in their campaign, in fact I'm surprised they are not pushing it harder. Prolly not a good idea to laud Bill though while Hillary was still in the running.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Where will the funds come from? Higher taxes.

The Wall Street capitalists, poor and middle class all want the government to fix the economy. This is a fact. The American public and businesses have long been bailed out and coddled by the government and are now addicted. To say nobody wants the economy to be run by the government is to deny it has been and will continue to be the status quo. It doesn't matter who gets in, higher taxes are inevitable.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

he will raise taxes to look after all the people in "need"

Like Bear Sterns, Halliburton and so on. This is probably not a major electoral point outside of the financial sector and the economically savvy, but for the first time in history that I am aware, the Bush administration degraded the credit quality of the Federal Reserve.


"Obama noted that investors including Warren Buffet have indicated that a capital gains tax rate of as much as 20 percent ``will probably not have any significant impact in terms of investment.''

At the same time, Obama stressed that the middle class is in desperate need of tax relief because of escalating costs and stagnant wages.

``Over the last decade or so, up to three-quarters of economic growth in the U.S. was captured by the top 1 percent,'' he said. ``What we are trying to do is restore some balance and put some money in the pockets of working families and consumers.'' "

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide=

It seems to me that the Rep's are pushing the interests of the top 1-5% of the wealth tree at the expense of the rest. The Middle class however remains the engine of the economy, both through it's tax revenue, and consumption. They should be getting a fairer deal from their government.

^Yes. In that respect, if Obama adopts some of the policies McCain has advocated, he would be on the right track.

I just hope he's not too out of touch with what really drives growth in an economy.

Originally Posted by sabang

The Middle class however remains the engine of the economy,

Interestingly, the Middle Class seems the most politically quiet, all over the world.

The aged have their lobby groups, the welfare dependant always want more, the Rich always shout about lower taxes. The middle class just gets on with business, and shoulders the burden of carrying the country.

And being the most populous group, end up voting in the leaders.

But, honestly, the rich very much understand the value of the working middle class, the backbone of society. Without them, they would have nothing. Classic liberals and academics fail to understand this basic truth about society's well-being.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

he will raise taxes to look after all the people in "need"

Like Bear Sterns, Halliburton and so on. .

The Fed had to step in and JP Morgan got a sweet deal buying out Bear. If Bear crashed, it would of had a domino effect in the markets. No credibility means every overseas country/investor would pull out of the US. Halli -- dunno, not well versed in that mess.
OK, I agree about the taxing of the middle class (way too harsh) but they are the ones who just slug it out at jobs to have a middle class life. They do not create or take risks. I start a company and make it successful, I reckon I should reap the rewards of my ideas and the benefits thereof. I employ lots of people and give them their livelihood. But, these middle classers take no risks to create the business. That is America. And the country rewards people who do take the risks to be innovative.
I get lots of tax breaks coz I run my own biz. But, if I fail, I have no backup. It is all up to me to succeed and invest for my future.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Thanks, MM. Found the GAO link....As medicare takes a bigger chunk, how will Obama pay for the spread to cover almost everyone?

Obama cannot do anything about this, really. McCain cannot do anything either. Congress cannot do anything.

The mathematical foundations are already in place.

Thanks for the link, Jet.

But here is the link I was referring to by David Walker. It's a little more simple and easier for some folks to follow:

Originally Posted by FayeQuarry

But, honestly, the rich very much understand the value of the working middle class, the backbone of society. Without them, they would have nothing. Classic liberals and academics fail to understand this basic truth about society's well-being.

The benevolent rich and the current administration's policies seem to have either never learned or have forgotten this basic truth.

Originally Posted by Bugs

Makes me wonder why the McCain team seems to want more and the Obama team seems to want to limit the number of debates?

Obama has the money for adverts and campaigning. McCain has far less to spend. Debates are a good way for a candidate to get free air time so McCain is keen on the idea.

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by Bugs

Makes me wonder why the McCain team seems to want more and the Obama team seems to want to limit the number of debates?

Obama has the money for adverts and campaigning. McCain has far less to spend. Debates are a good way for a candidate to get free air time so McCain is keen on the idea.

But if Obama kills McCain in the debates what good would all the free air time be?

Speaking of money what ever happend to the Obama idea to "aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a pubilicaly financed general election".
Page 5:
http://www.commoncause.org/atf/cf/%7...NALRELEASE.PDF


Also some folks seem to forget about the "outside groups" or 527's and what they bring to the table are far as campaign ads. McCain will certainly get a rather large amount of "support" and help in the campaign from such groups. That being said this year it also seems that Obama and the blue team have finally gotten their act together as far as 527's are concerned. This might actually be the year the blue teams 527's outspend the red teams 527's.

Originally Posted by Bugs

But if Obama kills McCain in the debates what good would all the free air time be?

I'm not sure he would kill McCain in a town hall forum. He may wound him a little but McCain is at his best when in face to face conversation and at his worst when doing the scripted speech thing. For Obama it's just the opposite.

Obama is sounding like a tired old liberal.

Taxing the hell out of people making $250k? What the hell is that? That's not taxing the rich, it's taxing the productive middle class. Idiot.

WASHINGTON - Make more than $250,000 a year? Watch out. Barack Obama wants to raise your income taxes. Social Security taxes, too.

Run a corporation? Lucky you. John McCain wants to cut your business taxes.

Those positions illustrate pieces of two vastly different approaches to the economy, an issue at the forefront of voters' minds given that the country is teetering on the brink of — if not already in — a recession as gas prices soar and layoffs rise amid a credit crisis and a housing slump.

Among Obama's other proposals: raising the tax on capital gains and qualified dividends. However, Obama has raised the possibility of deferring some of his tax hikes on the wealthy given the ailing economy.

McCain, Obama offer different visions on taxes - Yahoo! News

I really don't care how much shit I'll get from the school teachers on this board who make little money. Honestly, Obama is targeting the wrong group. Good, productive people who paid their way through University and now hump like hell commuting 3 hours/day and working 12 hours/day making 250/k are not rich. Tax the hell out of them and what? Give it to the inner-city blacks? Is that the plan?

Originally Posted by chinthee

Good, productive people who paid their way through University and now hump like hell commuting 3 hours/day and working 12 hours/day making 250/k are not rich.

After a quick look at the link, I see no professions that have a national average salary of over $200k. I'm sure there are a few making well above the national averages but taxing people with over $250k incomes seems reasonable.

http://stats.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

Originally Posted by chinthee

Tax the hell out of them and what? Give it to the inner-city blacks? Is that the plan?

Doubt it. Nothing to indicate he will. Revenues will be used to get educational systems up to snuff, fund his medical plans, shore up the economy and reduce national debt.

Originally Posted by Norton

After a quick look at the link, I see no professions that have a national average salary of over $200k. I'm sure there are a few making well above the national averages but taxing people with over $250k incomes seems reasonable.

http://stats.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

I guess this might also depend a lot on if the $250k is individual income or family income. I know quite a few families in the Midwest (not in high cost of living places like NY or LA) that are making well over the $250k (including things like commissions and bonuses) and I would still consider them to be middle class.

Would be interesting to find out if the averages in the link include things like commissions and bonuses - or are just the base pay.

Originally Posted by Bugs

Would be interesting to find out if the averages in the link include things like commissions and bonuses - or are just the base pay.

Likely just the base salaries because of the source "US Dept of Labor".

Originally Posted by Bugs

depend a lot on if the $250k is individual income or family income.

Pure speculation but I reckon it will be on individual income. Tax rates for those filing jointly should reflect appropriately. Guess we will have to wait and see.

yes, i think 250 K is a 'middle class' income... but if you took a poll, i think you'd find that most americans would consider 50K to be 'middle class'.
having only three categories is far too simplistic.

and with all the deductions available, if you can't get your stated income below 250K then you mostly likely deserve an increase.

btw, here's an interesting link (that appears reputable) which says only 2-3% of households earn over $250,000.

FactCheck.org: What percentage of the U.S. population makes more than $250,000 per year?