Fury at Rwanda sterilisation bill

**ItsRobsLife** · 04-07-2009, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Poor robski can't understand these things and can only pout that we don't give a toss about his narrow views.

Just another day at the 'office' eh Jet.

**November Rain** · 04-07-2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by plorf

Hypocrisy. Good on Rwanda for pragmatically trying to solve a major problem that all sub-saharan African countries struggle with. Are the moralists who want to deny Rwandans the right of their own legislation willing to care and cough up the cash for the disabled kids ? Let's not forget that late abortions are legal in many countries in Europe in case your kid is disabled. Oh but maybe abortions are better than sterilisations...
Sterilising disabled citizens is the only solution for a country that can't afford the Western way of "getting rid of disabled kids" (ie. putting them in homes for the handicapped, paid by the public, so the parents can forget about them)

Agreed. Excellent post again, Plorf.

**crippen** · 04-07-2009, 11:01 AM

Sterilising the disabled now but the next step,exterminateing is only a little way off???

**DrB0b** · 04-07-2009, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by November Rain

Originally Posted by plorf

Hypocrisy. Good on Rwanda for pragmatically trying to solve a major problem that all sub-saharan African countries struggle with. Are the moralists who want to deny Rwandans the right of their own legislation willing to care and cough up the cash for the disabled kids ? Let's not forget that late abortions are legal in many countries in Europe in case your kid is disabled. Oh but maybe abortions are better than sterilisations...
Sterilising disabled citizens is the only solution for a country that can't afford the Western way of "getting rid of disabled kids" (ie. putting them in homes for the handicapped, paid by the public, so the parents can forget about them)

Agreed. Excellent post again, Plorf.

You are aware, aren't you, that the foundation of all human rights is the right of bodily integrity? Take that away and the rest collapses.

**mrsquirrel** · 04-07-2009, 01:31 PM

All we need to do is convince the UK government to take this approach as well.

**baldrick** · 04-07-2009, 01:39 PM

maybe compulsory sterilisation for all males on the planet when they reach 12 years of age.

later when they make a conscious decision to release the tadpoles they can go and have it reversed.

**Rural Surin** · 04-07-2009, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by plorf

It's a myth that Africa can't sustain and feed its population. That might be true for India, especially as the rising wealth of the middle class causes a change in their diet, but Africa simply is misgoverned. They don't know how to farm, they lack the money to invest and the massive dislocation of white farmers and consequent redistribution of farm land by corrupt politicians isn't helping either.
There are a couple of African countries with very little chance of an agriculture above self-sufficiency, but in general Africa could not only feed itself but become a major agricultural exporter. But a growing population coupled with a declining agricultural industry in some countries without any birth control is of course Bono's wet dream. Food aid and charity concerts for the next decades to come.
Just like Indias population growth feeds up all its economic growth.

Which textbook did you gather this from?

**Rural Surin** · 04-07-2009, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Though well received by the usual suspects, my suspiscions would run deep regarding the views of Mr. Diamond.

Oh you've read the book then have you?

[/quote]
Actually I've read the book and other volumes of Mr. Diamonds work. I'm familiar with his material, for his predictable Eurocentric spin is quite available for the masses. Jared Diamond parades himself as curious and unconventional, whereas most get caught up in the spell of social science orthodoxy when it is repeated over and again. Nothing special about Mr. Diamond and his circle. If you've bothered at all to do some investigative research, you'll find that Professor Diamond has far more naysayers and critique thrown his way than praise - certainly amongst his contemporaries and peers, less the easily hynotised masses. Far be it for me to say....but Jared Diamond mirrors the orthodoxy that is present throughout Eurocentic bias of Anthropological models. He comes from the same historical background that simply isn't curious. Nor would he ever explore anything that doesn't promote the ideal of European influence and contribution - which largely, is a myth. Before taking on heroes, one must examine all roads.

**Lily** · 04-07-2009, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mr R Sole

There are degrees of mental disability..suely that's reognised...but if your a full blown cabbage..then chances are that you have no idea that shagging 'Umbeki' will result in a child??? am I correct.. So I am with Rwanda on this one..sorry but I agree, they haven't got the resources that the west has to abandon their mongaloid kids on the doorstep of the state...or abort them when the have their little test..just look at Thailand for a prime example and this country is far richer..many monged kids just sit at home to die due to poor helth care..and I watch on TV with my wife...where the parents have abandoned their 'unwanted' one with family or even neigbours!!!

But isn't sterilising them, shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Handicapped people dont normally have handicapped children.
The reasons for the handicaps are many and varied and are usually a random event or a birth injury.

It is not going to stop more people being born handicapped.

**Rural Surin** · 04-07-2009, 06:16 PM

Handicapped. First, we need to examine what sort of handicap that is perfectly acceptable and in use today.

**ItsRobsLife** · 05-07-2009, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Actually I've read the book and other volumes of Mr. Diamonds work. Good I'm glad you have read it, although you obviously didn't like or agree with it.
I'm familiar with his material, for his predictable Eurocentric spin is quite available for the masses. Predictable Eurocentric spin!? That says a lot more about your own predjudice than it does about any perspective Diamond may have taken.
Jared Diamond parades himself as curious and unconventional,

Possibly, his areas of research are certainly unconventional, studying the natives of New Guinea or Australian Aboriginals and summarising that they are no less intelligent than ourselves are not the kind of findings that fit neatly with a Western centric educational view.
whereas most get caught up in the spell of social science orthodoxy when it is repeated over and again. Where do you draw the line between cynicism and ignorance?
Nothing special about Mr. Diamond and his circle. Well he's obviously more gifted than you or I, do you think Malcolm Gladwell is just all hype?
If you've bothered at all to do some investigative research, As I've said, I read many books and only suggested this book as another viewpoint to the Rwandan genocide, quite an important point too I think, surely nothing wrong with that?
you'll find that Professor Diamond has far more naysayers and critique thrown his way than praise - Certainly that is highly debatable and quite easily disproven, but tell me any author that does not have critics.
certainly amongst his contemporaries and peers, Darwin?
less the easily hynotised masses. Do you think it's a bad thing that books like Guns, Germs and Steel, The Blind Watchmaker and A Brief History Of Time have made science, philosophy and anthropology accessable for the masses?
Far be it for me to say....But
but Jared Diamond mirrors the orthodoxy that is present throughout Eurocentic bias of Anthropological models. Well I think that is where you need to look at the criticism, which you claim is overwhelming, as most of the neagative criticism comes from established academic circles, perhaps you think because his work is not academic enough in style or perhaps, as I suspect, his books have helped people think outside of the constraints of the established model.
He comes from the same historical background that simply isn't curious. I think his position is clearly diametrically opposite to this.
Nor would he ever explore anything that doesn't promote the ideal of European influence Are you sure we read the same books? The ideal of European influence?

Collapse is divided into four parts.
Part One describes the environment of the US state of Montana, focusing on the lives of several individuals in order to put a human face on the interplay between society and the environment.
Part Two describes past societies that have collapsed. Diamond uses a "framework" when considering the collapse of a society, consisting of five "sets of factors" that may affect what happens to a society: environmental damage, climatic change, hostile neighbors, loss of trading partners, and the society's own responses to its environmental problems. The societies Diamond describes are:
The Greenland Norse (climate change, environmental damage, loss of trading partners, hostile neighbors and most unwillingness to adapt in the face of social collapse)
Easter Island (a society that collapsed entirely due to environmental damage)
The Polynesians of Pitcairn Island (environmental damage and loss of trading partners)
The Anasazi of southwestern North America (environmental damage and climate change)
The Maya of Central America (environmental damage, climate change, and hostile neighbours)
Finally, Diamond discusses three past success stories:
The tiny Pacific island of Tikopia
The agricultural success of central New Guinea
The Tokugawa-era forest management in Japan.
Part Three examines modern societies, including:
The collapse into genocide of Rwanda, caused in part by overpopulation
The failure of Haiti compared with the relative success of its neighbour on Hispaniola, the Dominican Republic
The problems facing a developing nation, China
The problems facing a First World nation, Australia

Are you American? I don't mean that in a derogotroy manner BTW but the irony must be clear.
and contribution - which largely, is a myth. A myth? I think you are stretching your credibilty beyond impartialy now.
Before taking on heroes, Did I say hero? I just suggested that he had an interestinjg point of view regarding the subject of the thread.
one must examine all roads.Patronising twat

The book may be aimed at the mainstream, but it's sources and findings are all referrenced for anyone to look further into and his conclusions clearly in realtion to the evidence and not wrapped up in post modernist hyperbole.

As I've said I think he offers a valuable and diferrent perspective, I don't claim that he is without fault or the only worthwhile source on any subject.

**Rural Surin** · 05-07-2009, 07:08 PM

References, documentation, and sources wrapped solely in predictable and protective orthodoxy and convention. Pathetic.

**DrB0b** · 06-07-2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

References, documentation, and sources wrapped solely in predictable and protective orthodoxy and convention. Pathetic.

Any chance of adding some content to your illiterate whinge? Thanks.

**Rural Surin** · 06-07-2009, 07:35 PM

....are you stalking me, DrBob?

**Rural Surin** · 06-07-2009, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

References, documentation, and sources wrapped solely in predictable and protective orthodoxy and convention. Pathetic.

Any chance of adding some content to your illiterate whinge? Thanks.

Critical thought and alternative curiosity are not of your choosing, yes? If the stimulation is repeated over and again, than surely it must represent truth and reality.

**DrB0b** · 06-07-2009, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

....are you stalking me, DrBob?

Just like to know if you're capable of adding content to any of your empty-headed one-line posts. Can you? And yes, I've decided that every time you post one of your idiot one-liners I'm going to hound you for content and verification. I can just about cope with the way you mangle English (after all, so far you've told us that you're Thai, Lao, Chinese, and Cambodian) but I'm getting pretty bored with your habit of posting vacuous crap and acting as if it was in some way meaningful.

pompeybloke · 06-07-2009, 07:43 PM

^ Think he's trying to find you out, like I am. Talk in riddles you do and there on every thread, always smug and supercilious one liners that are haughty. Always with an anti-western and pro Chinese/Thai slant.
Get real and say what you mean. We don't appreciate words from the closet----show yourself!

**DrB0b** · 06-07-2009, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by pompeybloke

^ Think he's trying to find you out, like I am. Talk in riddles you do and there on every thread, always smug and supercilious one liners that are haughty. Always with an anti-western and pro Chinese/Thai slant.
Get real and say what you mean. We don't appreciate words from the closet----show yourself!

Was that directed at me?

**Rural Surin** · 06-07-2009, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by pompeybloke

^ Think he's trying to find you out, like I am. Talk in riddles you do and there on every thread, always smug and supercilious one liners that are haughty. Always with an anti-western and pro Chinese/Thai slant.
Get real and say what you mean. We don't appreciate words from the closet----show yourself!

Might you be offended {or even threatened} by a Euro-criticism bent? Why so? I don't fit into your pretty little forced upon homogenous fancy. Absolutes? That's not my fixed compass setting.

**DrB0b** · 06-07-2009, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Originally Posted by pompeybloke

^ Think he's trying to find you out, like I am. Talk in riddles you do and there on every thread, always smug and supercilious one liners that are haughty. Always with an anti-western and pro Chinese/Thai slant.
Get real and say what you mean. We don't appreciate words from the closet----show yourself!

Might you be offended {or even threatened} by a Euro-criticism bent? Why so? I don't fit into your pretty little forced upon homogenous fancy. Absolutes? That's not my fixed compass setting.

Can you say that in a human language please? The only person here who speaks fluent gibberish is you.

pompeybloke · 06-07-2009, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Was that directed at me?

No it wasn't.

**November Rain** · 06-07-2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

You are aware, aren't you, that the foundation of all human rights is the right of bodily integrity? Take that away and the rest collapses.

Yes. And in principle I'd agree. In practice, however, you have children being born to those incapable of looking after them in a third world country, where no infrastructure for support or care of these children is available. Who's looking after their human rights? Surely it's better never to be born than to die of starvation or disease in your first months or years?

Originally Posted by Lily

But isn't sterilising them, shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Handicapped people dont normally have handicapped children. The reasons for the handicaps are many and varied and are usually a random event or a birth injury. It is not going to stop more people being born handicapped.

I think the point is more that if the parents are mentally unable to cope with children, that there is no-one to look after them.

**DrB0b** · 06-07-2009, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by November Rain

Surely it's better never to be born than to die of starvation or disease in your first months or years?
.

Who knows? Neither you nor I nor anybody else should take it upon themselves the power to decide whether somebody else's life is worthwhile or not. No doubt the logic for ending what Hitler called "Life unworthy of life" when referring to the seriously disabled is impeccable, it's the ethics that stink.

**Jet Gorgon** · 07-07-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife;1100862[COLOR=yellow

I just suggested that he had an interestinjg point of view regarding the subject of the thread.[/COLOR]

555 That's rich.

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

References, documentation, and sources wrapped solely in predictable and protective orthodoxy and convention. Pathetic.

robski likes that sort of stuff -- easy for him to be spoonfed.

**Jesus Jones** · 07-07-2009, 10:05 AM

Western governments don't give a shit about these people. They are not interested in helping them, just reducing there numbers. Just like the poor people in Haiti, the hospitals have nothing. Very little medication, no clean water or sanitary and no education. But they have plenty of birth control pills stocked to the ceilings thanks to the good old US of A.

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