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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    Navalny probably self administered the Novachok to make Vlad look bad. I could just see that as a potential discussion between Klon and Oh.
    There was obviously no Novichok involved at all. This was all just a CIA job to try and stop Nord Stream 2.

    Navalny is a diabetic. There is a million ways to kill someone , especially I diabetic , without using Soviet era chemicals that have a history of not working.

    This story is ALL bullshit

  2. #277
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    French, Swedish Labs Confirm Navalny's Novichok Poisoning, Germany Says

    Three labs have independently confirmed that Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny was poisoned with the Novichok nerve agent, Germany said Monday, renewing calls for Russia to explain the incident.


    Germany said earlier this month it had “unquestionable proof” that Navalny, 44, was poisoned with Novichok when he fell ill after boarding a flight in Siberia on Aug. 20. Navalny was flown to Berlin in a coma after two days of treatment in the Siberian city of Omsk, where doctors say they have seen no traces of poison.

    The German government said in a statement that it sought independent analysis of Navalny’s samples from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as well as specialized laboratories in France and Sweden.


    “Independent of the ongoing OPCW investigations, three laboratories have now independently demonstrated the presence of a nerve agent from the Novichok group as the cause of Mr. Navalny’s poisoning,” it said.


    “We renew the call for Russia to explain itself,” the German government added.


    Moscow has rejected suggestions that it was responsible for Navalny’s poisoning and dismissed calls to launch a criminal investigation into the incident. The Russian government has complained that Germany has been ignoring its request to see the evidence that Navalny was poisoned with Novichok.

    French, Swedish Labs Confirm Navalny's Novichok Poisoning, Germany Says - The Moscow Times

  3. #278
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    Is it possible that the dangerous Mr. P. has turned in something like it is often told about some old people? (Now there are some many such stories even on the highest posts - or in-waiting, but who will believe that...)

    Why he (Mr.P.) first poisoned his opponent (2% hopeful) but afterwards sent him to Germany with unfinished job? That's can be explained only by his (Mr.P.'s) advanced dementia...

    After all, he (Mr.P.) had been always very clever, knowing how to turn over the tables on his foes and even more, to record some gain for himself. Take e.g.:

    -2008: when sitting on the bleachers of the Bird Nest Olympic Stadium in Peking while the zealous Sakhashvili started shooting over the border of Georgia (while chewing up many neck-ties sent to him by friends), but at the end of the day the South Ossetia and Abhasia had broken away from him, enjoying now their independence backed by their powerful neighbour

    -2014: All of us know what had happened in Ukraine and what was finally gained (beside the heroic sacking of the prosecutor)

    And now such a blatant failure. Hasn't he (Mr.P.) known (from his previous stay in Germany - but that was not the same Germany) - they have got some good laboratories? Especially when the Novichok 2.0 is very "roaring", quite different from the Novichok 1.0, that was very quiet, when the Skripals fell asleep on the garden bench. Luckily, the Aeroflot plane and the whole crew did not need to be discarded like in Salisbury the house and the cat. Neither the private Learjet...

    Or will he want to trade off Navalny for the silly old Lukashenko who was lured out today to enjoy the famous hospitality at Mr.P's mansion at Sochi? Perhaps another gain for Mr.P.?

  4. #279
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskit View Post
    The German government said in a statement that it sought independent analysis of Navalny’s samples from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as well as specialized laboratories in France and Sweden.
    And yet some cretins still believe in some conspiracy because Putin would never do this

  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Is it possible that the dangerous Mr. P. has turned in something like it is often told about some old people? (Now there are some many such stories even on the highest posts - or in-waiting, but who will believe that...)

    Why he (Mr.P.) first poisoned his opponent (2% hopeful) but afterwards sent him to Germany with unfinished job? That's can be explained only by his (Mr.P.'s) advanced dementia...

    After all, he (Mr.P.) had been always very clever, knowing how to turn over the tables on his foes and even more, to record some gain for himself. Take e.g.:

    -2008: when sitting on the bleachers of the Bird Nest Olympic Stadium in Peking while the zealous Sakhashvili started shooting over the border of Georgia (while chewing up many neck-ties sent to him by friends), but at the end of the day the South Ossetia and Abhasia had broken away from him, enjoying now their independence backed by their powerful neighbour

    -2014: All of us know what had happened in Ukraine and what was finally gained (beside the heroic sacking of the prosecutor)

    And now such a blatant failure. Hasn't he (Mr.P.) known (from his previous stay in Germany - but that was not the same Germany) - they have got some good laboratories? Especially when the Novichok 2.0 is very "roaring", quite different from the Novichok 1.0, that was very quiet, when the Skripals fell asleep on the garden bench. Luckily, the Aeroflot plane and the whole crew did not need to be discarded like in Salisbury the house and the cat. Neither the private Learjet...

    Or will he want to trade off Navalny for the silly old Lukashenko who was lured out today to enjoy the famous hospitality at Mr.P's mansion at Sochi? Perhaps another gain for Mr.P.?
    Article Fact Check
    Two dictators met in Sochi

  6. #281
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    Putin would have had it done right.

  7. #282
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    Why? He's failed before.

    As a deterrent, however, it still works on some I'm sure

  8. #283
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    Would you resist?




    On September 11, the Transport Administration of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation for the Siberian Federal District announced the search for Maria Pevchikh, who accompanied Alexei Navalny in Siberia. It was on that trip that the founder of FBK became ill, as a result of which he fell into a coma. Maria was supposed to answer a number of questions as part of the pre-investigation check, but she did not, having flown on a special flight to Germany with Navalny.

    The media suggest that it was she who could be the blogger's poisoner, because the woman had access to his personal belongings - they spent the night together in a hotel. Therefore, she could either mix or apply poison. In addition, Pevchikh did not accompany Navalny on the Tomsk-Moscow flight, and this also raises suspicions. In addition, it turned out that Maria's father, Konstantin Eduardovich Pevchikh, is in charge of scientific enterprises and is the head of a biolaboratory.

    A detailed investigation into the personality of the Singers and her relationship with Navalny was published by Pravda.ru . It turned out that a resident of London has been a blogger's liaison for ten years. She passed him various incriminating information for investigation.

    Let's pay attention to a number of suspicious facts. Maria did not return to Moscow with Navalny on a Tomsk plane, and when the blogger was hospitalized in Omsk, she went there via Novosibirsk. First there by car, and then to Omsk by plane. She chose not to fly from Tomsk. It is also alarming that it was not Yulia Navalnaya, the blogger's wife, who was allowed on the special board, but Maria. By the way, then the women were noticed together.

    Note that German doctors thought that Navalny was poisoned by the toxin through his underwear. The singers had access to it. And then a bottle with traces of a poisonous substance appeared in the case. Probably, it was Maria who handed it over to experts from Germany.

    A woman could really be a poisoner, because she has access to various poisons and toxins. Her father Konstantin Eduardovich Pevchikh heads two scientific enterprises at once.

    LLC "Fottis" was registered at the end of July this year, and what the organization is doing is unknown. But LLC "NIOBIS" is developing projects for the cultivation of viruses and biological cells. The company has been operating for almost ten years.

    The organizations have the same address: 125167, Moscow, Viktorenko Street, Building 16, Building 1.

    Taking into account the specifics of the activities of one of the enterprises of Konstantin Pevchikh, we can assume with a high degree of certainty that hazardous chemicals, viruses and bacteria are used in the work. And since the man is the head of these firms, he definitely has access to the substances. In addition, Pevchikh is actively studying biocybernetics, which indicates a deep knowledge of human biology. Plus, such people are part of the scientific community, which also has poison experts.

    Отец Певчих мог подобрать дочери химикат для отравления Навального

  9. #284
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    Berlin struggles to answer RT's question on fate of Navalny’s mysterious associate who fled Russia for Germany

    15 Sep, 2020

    When asked by RT, German government representatives failed to explain the mystery surrounding Alexey Navalny's associate M. Pevchikh, who was with him at the time of the alleged poisoning and fled for Germany shortly.

    German government spokespeople were grilled by RT Deutsch during a press conference on Monday. The officials, however, failed to provide any actual answer about the woman identified by Russian authorities as Marina Pevchikh.

    “I can’t tell you anything about this. We must not forget that an attempt was made on the life of Mr. Navalny with the use of a poisonous substance. But I can’t tell you anything about the location of an individual,” Steffen Seibert stated.

    The associate of the Kremlin critic was reportedly together with Navalny in Tomsk before his alleged poisoning. Unlike all other individuals who interacted with him on that day, she did not cooperate with Russian investigators and fled the country to Germany.

    Pevchikh has spoken on the matter with Meduza, a Latvia-based Russian language news site, claiming she was never approached by the police. She also said her name is actually Maria, not ‘Marina’.

    German officials have also failed to explain how a Russian citizen managed to obtain a permit for entering the country that fast. Still, little is actually known about Pevchikh, who is believed to hold a UK residence permit – or even citizenship. Moreover, only a few photos of her exist, despite her close association and repeated trips alongside Navalny, who is a very public figure.

    The saga of the Navalny ‘poisoning’ kicked off on August 20, when he fell ill on a flight from Tomsk to Moscow. After an emergency landing in Omsk, a Siberian city 2,000 km east of the Russian capital, he was taken to a local hospital in an unresponsive condition.

    The opposition figure was flown to Berlin’s Charite clinic two days later, where he is currently being treated. While Russian doctors have found no traces of toxic substances in samples collected from Navalny, their German counterparts have claimed he was poisoned with a variant of the infamous nerve agent family ‘Novichok’. Creators of that family of toxic substances have already said his symptoms did not correspond with the exposure to the agent, however.

    Berlin struggles to answer RT's question on fate of Navalny’s mysterious associate who fled Russia for Germany — RT World News

  10. #285
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    Something very wrong here, and I don't think it's entirely Russia.

    I've had days off from this so there may be lapses, but from what I understand Navalny was sent to an Omsk hospital where there's no disputing that they saved his life (German doctors agree), the Russians found no trace of poison in his system, came to the conclusion that he was not poisoned, and sent him to Germany for German doctors to confirm their findings.

    And here's where it starts going off the rails, in Germany and by the German authorities, not the Russians. German doctors claim to have detected not just poison but novichok, Russia had their best people on it, but there's always a possibility that they failed to detect it, so they asked for the German research and in line with protocol the German Foreign minister said they would provide it; Russia waited with no sign of the data, and kept pressing the Germans who have since done a u-turn and refused to hand it over.

    As a compromise, the German FM said he passed the data to the OPCW which had sent a team to the German hospital and laboratories and are now investigating. That's good, except the OPCW say they've had no data from the Germans, and know nothing about an OPCW team that Germany says have visited their facilities. Contradictory statements invariably lead to speculation and confusion, but it's from Germany officials and spokesmen, not the Russians who appear to want this matter resolved, and are not prepared to be sidelined, which is fair enough considering they're the ones being blamed.

    Russia requests that the German's clearly state their position, which they haven't done so far, and arrange for a single official to liaise, so that everything passes through that person, and on the record. Germany declines.

    Now reports suggest that Merkel has been trying to speak with Putin over the past couple of weeks. We don't know what she wants to discuss, probably about Navalny, but the reports say he's rejected her calls and will not speak with her until the Germans do what they said they would do, hand over the data, in line with protocol, so that it can be examined by the international community.

    Next, Merkel rolls out the Italian PM (Conte?) to say that Putin promised him that he was putting together a commission to investigate the Navalny affair. Not sure what she hoped to get out of this, and he may have earned another couple of hospitals out of it, but Russia denied it.

    Then reports last week suggest Merkel was toying with the idea of dropping NordStream2, which was her idea in the first place. Russia has invested c$10bn, many German, Austrian and other businesses are relying on it, while it also allows Russia to bypass Ukraine and its transit fees. But Merkel said early on that NS2 is a purely commercial project and has nothing to do with the Navalny affair, so it's not in danger of being sanctioned or otherwise affected. Not sure if Germany could sanction the project even if Merkel wanted to, and certainly not without serious legal and economic implications; the EU could, and it's no secret that Merkel has quite a voice at that forum, but if the EU suddenly decides that NS2 should be dropped, Germany loses all credibility and can no longer be trusted.

    The Germans must validate their claims, which they appear unwilling or unable to do, and unless they do it wouldn't be far wrong to suggest at least some of those claims were based on wishful thinking rather than clear facts. I am still on the fence but leaning toward Russia.

  11. #286
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    Something very wrong here, and I don't think it's entirely Russia.

    I've had days off from this so there may be lapses, but from what I understand Navalny was sent to an Omsk hospital where there's no disputing that they saved his life (German doctors agree), the Russians found no trace of poison in his system,
    Not only did the Russians "find no trace" but they deliberately kept away any independent medical experts who could have verified what was in his system.

    So yeah, I call bullshit.

    Russian officials .... have insisted that there was no proof Mr. Navalny had been poisoned. They have suggested several alternative theories, including a drug overdose and low blood sugar.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/14/world/europe/navalny-novichok.html


  12. #287
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    The Germans must validate their claims, which they appear unwilling or unable to do,
    Three separate entities from three countries have confirmed it.

  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Three separate entities from three countries have confirmed it.
    Three entities have analysed a "sample" given to them. From where, by whom and under who's seal is not confirmed.

    Not that some believe the requirement of proven chain of security has any relevance and we should "trust" in all they deliver.

    Some of course still adhere to the standards adopted by various world regulators.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  14. #289
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Some of course still adhere to the standards adopted by various world regulators.
    Like you and Klondyke believing and parading everything two authoritarian regimes feed you? Yes. Some do. You two.

  15. #290
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
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    I have no love for Germany or Russia, so it's quite comfortable up on the fence.

    But having announced poisoning and by novichok, Germany (and recently glimpsed I think Sweden and the Dutch) should publish the data. I don't know what that involves or how it's interpreted or where we go from there, but to light the fuse with serious implications and then refuse to hand over the research to the party being blamed, while sending enough data/samples for third parties to confirm that claim, smells a bit.

    And if Putin wanted Navalny dead, on Russian soil, he would be dead by any of many means, rather than have his life saved in a Russian hospital by Russian doctors, and then sent to Germany to confirm that he hadn't been poisoned.

  16. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    the German FM said he passed the data to the OPCW
    That must to be a joke:
    The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is an intergovernmental organisation and the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention
    But Navalny is a private person, for that a criminal law is to be applied, something what Ms. Marple and M. Poirot had always practiced to investigate.

    Besides, the OPCW has other tasks to solve in a unbiased manner, together with White Helmets as it was recorded in Syria. Mind the whistleblowers from their own ranks who reported on the fabrication of the "evidence".

    And why they should present the "evidence" to Russians? isn't a good modern practise to keep the "evidence" against the accused with the plaintiff only?

  17. #292
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    I have no love for Germany or Russia, so it's quite comfortable up on the fence.

    But having announced poisoning and by novichok, Germany (and recently glimpsed I think Sweden and the Dutch) should publish the data. I don't know what that involves or how it's interpreted or where we go from there, but to light the fuse with serious implications and then refuse to hand over the research to the party being blamed, while sending enough data/samples for third parties to confirm that claim, smells a bit.

    And if Putin wanted Navalny dead, on Russian soil, he would be dead by any of many means, rather than have his life saved in a Russian hospital by Russian doctors, and then sent to Germany to confirm that he hadn't been poisoned.
    Perhaps, has been pointed out, the intention is to try and make him give up without making him a martyr.

    Although he must be a bit batty to have carried on this far.

  18. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Like you and Klondyke believing and parading everything two authoritarian regimes feed you? Yes. Some do. You two.
    Just like Salisbury. Or the Syria war. Both governments , the US side and the Russian side , are lying through their teeth. Neither account makes very much sense. This is geopolitics.

    The fact that you've been watching this your whole adult life , and you haven't figured this out yet, is amazing.

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Perhaps, has been pointed out, the intention is to try and make him give up without making him a martyr.

    Although he must be a bit batty to have carried on this far.
    Pew Research has Navalnys support in Russia at about 2%. But let's round it up to 10%. He is simply not a threat to the elite in Russia.

    It's like Glenn Greenwald running around the US claiming to be the opposition.

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    Just like Salisbury.
    Tell us about Salisbury




    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    It's like Glenn Greenwald running around the US claiming to be the opposition.
    Except it isn't, but you'd have to understand geo-politics for that

  21. #296
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    The nature of geopolitics makes it unpredictable and subject to abuse; fair enough so far, except in our times politicians tend to be less accountable for their lies and failed manipulations, esp those high on popularity with media clout.

    For me still on the fence but never having trusted Merkel, there appears to be enough evidence to suggest that the Germans/she started a high stakes game with serious geopolitical implications that didn't go as expected.

    Imo the German FM should be questioned about his u-turn by first offering and then refusing to hand over data to the Russians but instead giving enough of it to his mates allowing them to confirm his findings. The Russians as the accused should have had first dibs on it, as agreed right from the start. He should also explain why he lied about sending the data to the OPCW and their visits to his facilities; not the sort of lies that need much digging to expose, just a simple phone call. This is surreal. As for bringing the OPCW into the picture so early, with so much confusion created by the Germans, could it be a ploy to avoid giving the data to the Russians?

    Why? Could be they're not confident with their own data, that it has holes, but took a chance not expecting this to develop as it has, and that Merkel knows she risks a major blow when the Russians trashed it. This might explain many of the German moves.

    Among the reasons for Putin to send Navalny to Germany instead of another country, is that Germany is the de facto force of the EU, it has the best facilities in Europe which he expected to confirm Russian findings, he has a soft spot for the country having lived there for years as a KGB agent, he speaks fluent German, and his daughters attend German schools. I'm sure he regrets that decision.

    As for bringing NS2 to the sanctions table the day or two days after announcing it is purely commercial and nothing to do with the Navalny affair, this is pure political bluff with a hefty dose of vanity, considering Merkel cannot simply walk away from NS2 even if she wanted to. Could be wrong, but my guess is if she did try to go all in by bulldozing the EU into scrapping NS2, they would look at the implications, realise they're being led into the bear pit to save her face, and tell her to piss off.

    From the Russian side, it appears they are taking this seriously, authorities have tracked every movement that Navalny made in the days leading to his illness, every person he met, every hotel, restaurant, they know what he ate and drank when and where, how much he paid, who he was with, the waiters and the chefs and their families. The only thing that 'appears' to be missing from this dossier is the mystery Russian woman (later identified as Maria Petchik (?)) with British travel documents (passport and or residency) who took a flight from Russia to guess where, that's right, Germany, and then disappeared.

    Again there may be updates, but more madness as of last weekend with the Germans insisting on a criminal probe by the Russians, based on Navalny being poisoned by novichok, a Russian nerve agent, without providing them with the evidence (data) to launch that probe. Nothing makes sense anymore, unless, the Germans tried it on, know they failed, and are playing for time.

    Many missing pieces, but as things stand from here Putin/Russia comes out of this cleaner than Merkel/Germany.

  22. #297
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    So, I'm wondering where the problems are that you refer to.

    Is this article self-explanatory?


    Navalny, Awake and Alert, Plans to Return to Russia, German Official Says


    Mr. Navalny talked with a German prosecutor about being poisoned. Word of his improvement came as France and Sweden confirmed that he had been sickened by Novichok, a Russian nerve agent.


    Aleksei A. Navalny in Moscow in 2019. His condition has improved since he was poisoned last month, though his doctors have not ruled out long-term complications.Credit...Maxim Zmeyev/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images


    By Katrin Bennhold and Michael Schwirtz



    • Sept. 14, 2020




    BERLIN — Aleksei A. Navalny, the Russian opposition leader who is recovering from being poisoned, has spoken to a German prosecutor about the attempt on his life and says he plans to return to Russia as soon as he has recovered, a senior German security official said on Monday.
    Mr. Navalny had been in a medically induced coma at the Charité hospital in Berlin and it was not clear what condition he would be in once he regained consciousness. But the security official, who was briefed on his condition, said Mr. Navalny seemed mentally sharp.
    “He’s fully aware of his condition, he’s fully aware of what happened and he’s fully aware of where he is,” said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity to talk candidly about the case.
    The news came hours after the German government announced that laboratories in France and Sweden had confirmed that the substance used to poison Mr. Navalny was a form of the nerve agent Novichok, results that match Berlin’s own findings and provide additional confidence that the Russian state was involved.


    “Three laboratories have now independently provided evidence of a substance from the Novichok group as the cause of Mr. Navalny’s poisoning,” a German government spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said in a statement. “We renew the call for Russia to explain what has happened.”
    Mr. Navalny remains heavily guarded by German police in the hospital. In his conversation with the German prosecutor, he refused to cooperate with a Russian request to jointly investigate the case with Germany, the security official said, adding that once he recovers, Mr. Navalny plans to return to Russia.


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    “He’s not planning to go into exile in Germany,” the official said. “He wants to go home to Russia and he wants to continue his mission.”
    Russian officials were not immediately informed of Mr. Navalny’s refusal to cooperate, and did not initially respond to news of the French and Swedish tests. They have insisted that there was no proof Mr. Navalny had been poisoned. They have suggested several alternative theories, including a drug overdose and low blood sugar.

    In his statement, Mr. Seibert described the use of Novichok — a class of potent nerve agents developed by the Soviet Union and used at least once before in an assassination attempt by Russian intelligence operatives — as a violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, of which Russia is a signatory.




    The Charité hospital in Berlin, where Mr. Navalny has been recovering, has been heavily guarded since his arrival. Credit...Maja Hitij/Getty Images

    But even as patience with President Vladimir V. Putin is running thin, Berlin is struggling to determine how to respond. Some have suggested canceling the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, a nearly completed, $11 billion project to carry natural gas from Russia to Germany. So far, however, the German government, its European allies and the United States have not taken any action aside from raising the prospect of additional sanctions on Russia.
    The poisoning of Mr. Navalny is the latest in a long string of killings or attempted killings of Kremlin opponents in recent years. On Aug. 20, after campaigning in Siberia for antigovernment candidates for local offices, he collapsed, was hospitalized and flown to Germany for treatment two days later.
    Local elections were held across Russia over the weekend, and Mr. Navalny and his allies made modest gains. In the opposition’s biggest victory, Mr. Putin’s United Russia party lost its majority on the City Council in Novosibirsk, a Siberian industrial hub and Russia’s third-largest city.
    The attack on Mr. Navalny increases the strain on the close, complicated and increasingly contradictory German-Russian relationship.
    Chancellor Angela Merkel has been unusually clear in her sharp condemnation of Moscow’s brazen actions and lack of cooperation. Less than a year ago, a former Chechen rebel leader was assassinated in broad daylight in a Berlin park, a killing that German federal prosecutors say was orchestrated by the Russian state.
    Ms. Merkel, who normally speaks with Mr. Putin by phone at least once a week, has not spoken to him since Mr. Navalny’s poisoning, a senior German security official said. On Monday, Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei V. Lavrov, canceled a meeting scheduled for this week with his German counterpart, Heiko Maas. In a statement, the Russian foreign ministry did not mention the Navalny poisoning and said the cancellation had to do with a scheduling conflict.


    President Emmanuel Macron of France raised the poisoning in a phone call with Mr. Putin on Monday, affirming the French laboratory results and asking that “all light be shed, without delay, on the circumstances and responsibilities of this attempted assassination,” according to a readout provided by the French government. The readout did not include Mr. Putin’s response.
    Ms. Merkel has been one of the tougher leaders in Europe when it comes to Russia, demanding a strong line on maintaining economic sanctions imposed after Russia’s 2014 invasion of Ukraine, even in the face of pushback at home and in other capitals.










    Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany has not spoken with President Vladimir Putin of Russia since Mr. Navalny’s poisoning. Credit...Michael Kappeler/DPA, via Associated Press

    But she has also worked hard to keep diplomatic lines to Moscow open. The two countries have deep economic links, not least in the energy market, and a sizable faction in German politics believes that Russia should be an important partner.
    Ms. Merkel appears to be treading carefully once again — at least for now. German officials did not raise Mr. Navalny’s poisoning last week, when Dmitri Kozak, a close confidant of Mr. Putin, was allowed to land in Berlin for talks related to the war in Ukraine, despite a travel ban.
    Germany has refused to rule out a re-evaluation of Nord Stream 2, but Ms Merkel has long defended the project and experts say it is unlikely to be scrapped.
    The German response so far contrasts sharply with Britain’s reaction in 2018, after the poisoning of Sergei V. Skripal, a former Russian spy, in the English city of Salisbury. Once the British government announced that Russian operatives had used Novichok in that case, it gave the Kremlin 24 hours to respond, after which it imposed sanctions and rallied allies to expel dozens of Russian diplomats.


    But German officials insist that the poisoning of Mr. Navalny is not a bilateral issue between Germany and Russia. Unlike Mr. Skripal, who held British citizenship and was attacked on British soil, Mr. Navalny is a Russian who was in Russia when he was poisoned.
    German officials are considering a variety of possible sanctions, including travel bans and asset freezes against individuals, and are hoping for a response backed by all European Union member states.
    “We want this to be a European sanctions regime to show that this is about our values when a leading opposition politician is poisoned,” said one senior German security official involved in the discussions.









    Pipes for the Nord Stream 2 pipeline project at the port in Sassnitz, Germany. Credit...Hannibal Hanschke/Reuters

    The official said that while it was important to send a message that Russia’s behavior was out of line, it should not come at the expense of continued negotiations on issues like the wars in Ukraine and Syria, where Russia is a key player.
    “This is a terrible thing, we have to sanction it, but it will not lead to a totally new Russia policy,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to talk candidly about internal deliberations. “The hard reality is: We need Russia on Ukraine, Libya, Syria. We don’t want everything to collapse.”
    Mr. Navalny’s recovery could also influence the eventual response, but doctors now expect him to make a full recovery, the senior official said.


    Traces of the poison were found in samples taken from Mr. Navalny at the hospital in Berlin but also, crucially, on a water bottle that had traveled with him from Russia, German officials said. They have rejected Moscow’s demand for “proof” that Mr. Navalny was poisoned inside Russia, noting that the Russian authorities had taken their own samples and confiscated dozens of objects before he was flown to Germany.
    “They have their proof,” one official said.
    Within Russia, Mr. Navalny hoped to capitalize on discontent over Russia’s economic slump and the coronavirus pandemic. Support for Mr. Putin has softened in recent years and dropped even further this year, said Denis Volkov, deputy director of Levada, an independent polling organization.
    Russia’s political system enforces support for Mr. Putin on a national level but allows more diversity in local elections — an opening Mr. Navalny tried to seize to loosen the grip of the governing United Russia party. He encouraged the fractious opposition to unite behind a single candidate in each race.
    In Novosibirsk, United Russia won 22 or 23 seats of 50 council seats, according to preliminary results, with one race still contested. That is down from 33 seats. Mr. Navalny’s regional representative there, Sergei Boiko, and other opposition figures won council seats despite the poisoning of their leader, a stink bomb attack on Mr. Navalny’s office in the city and allegations of ballot stuffing.
    Mr. Navalny is aware of the results and said he is pleased, the senior German official said.










    Sergei Boiko, the head of Alexei Navalny’s Novosibirsk headquarters and the city council candidate in the regional elections, meeting with his electorate last week.Credit...Alexander Nemenov/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

    Mr. Navalny’s allies also won a smattering of seats on other councils, including two in Tomsk, the last city he visited on his campaign swing.
    But no mass movement in sympathy with Mr. Navalny has emerged, and there is no sign that the poisoning has shaken up Russian politics. United Russia’s failings were already well known and some losses had been expected, said Dmitri Trenin, the director of the Carnegie Moscow Center.


    “I am surprised by how little impact the poisoning” has had, he said.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/14/world/europe/navalny-novichok.html

  23. #298
    Thailand Expat
    Klondyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post
    Except it isn't, but you'd have to understand geo-politics for that
    Isn't it wonderful that we have here somebody who understands anything? And who tells us what - mostly everything - we do not understand...

    Why not everybody here is so clever as him? (admitted, there are few more here trailing his cleverness)

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    ^^
    I have no problem with it, everything may be as the article says, though it fails to address the points I raised, doesn't ask the questions one should expect of the NYT, and takes for granted that Russia is the bad guy so the Germans must be honest, truthful and sparkling clean.

    Not just the truth, which may be as published, but the whole truth.

    Afaik, the Russians may have poisoned Navalny, then saved his life, then sent him to Germany hoping they would fail to detect the evidence. Bit of a stretch, but until everything is laid out anything is possible.

  25. #300
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Isn't it wonderful that we have here somebody who understands anything?
    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    And who tells us what - mostly everything - we do not understand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Why not everybody here is so clever as him? (admitted, there are few more here trailing his cleverness)
    You need to stop smoking that whacky backy . . . and to stop stalking me. Spasiba tovarish



    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    takes for granted that Russia is the bad guy so the Germans must be honest, truthful and sparkling clean.
    Germany didn't have a reason to neither fake the results nor to have him be tested in Germany . . . one of the reasons they sought back-up from France and Sweden.

    There's really no 'win' scenario for Germany to unilaterally create aggro with Russia

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