Civilians Under the Gun In Syria

[misskit]

WASHINGTON—
Since Russia launched its first round of airstrikes in Syria three weeks ago, reports have emerged that civilians were making up a shockingly large portion of the casualties.

A report by a Syrian activist group is lending further weight to that accusation.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said this week civilian deaths constitute nearly one-third of the 370 people killed by Russian warplanes since the campaign began.

"One-hundred twenty-seven civilians, 36 of them children, were killed by Russian airstrikes," Rami Abdel Rahman, director of the Britain-based group told VOA in an interview Thursday.

In one of the latest attacks, at least 13 people including medical staff were killed when Russian jets hit a field hospital Tuesday in the northwestern province of Idlib, according to the Observatory.

There have also been reports of Russian bombs hitting what appear to be exclusively civilian targets, including schools and post offices.

Russia defends campaign

Russia has defended the air raids, saying it is taking the utmost precautions to protect civilians. But that has not stopped the complaints from rights groups and opposition activists.

Ammar Abdulhamid, a Syrian pro-democracy activist currently living in the United States, tells VOA his contacts in Syria confirm civilian casualties from Russian airstrikes.

"The Russians have much more tolerance when it comes to 'collateral damage' than the U.S.," Abdulhamid said, referring to the U.S.-led campaign of airstrikes targeting mainly the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq.

Russia has been criticized for aiming most of its bombs at rebel groups other than the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, despite initially saying the extremist group would be a main focus.

Abdulhamid says that by targeting non-Islamist rebels, Russia has likely killed more civilians.

"Rebels are not like ISIS, they are often members of the local communities, and are taking an active part in administering these areas. As such, they are heavily intermixed with the civilian population," he explains.

US-led coalition campaign

The U.S. has also been criticized for civilian casualties resulting from its coalition airstrikes, as well as an alleged lack of transparency in the matter.

In its latest estimate, the Syrian Observatory said in June civilian deaths made up just 162 of the of the approximately 3,000 people killed in the U.S.-led strikes, or less than half of 1 percent of all casualties.

But another independent organization, Airwars, which monitors and investigates coalition airstrikes, puts the figure much higher. The group estimates the civilian fatality range is anywhere from 608 to 1,817.

The coalition has acknowledged two "likely" civilian deaths, which occurred during a November 2014 U.S. strike in Syria. It also says it is investigating several other incidents in which civilians may have died.

Nadim Houry, deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa division, has documented civilian casualties from both the Russian and U.S.-led bombardment campaigns.


Difficult comparison

Houry says it is difficult to compare casualty figures from the two campaigns, not only because the Russian airstrikes have recently begun, but also because of the different areas in which the airstrikes are being conducted.

"The challenge [with U.S.-led coalition airstrikes] is investigating because they're in ISIS-controlled areas. So we can't go there and most people in ISIS-controlled areas can no longer get on the Internet very easily because they've put in restrictions," he said.

"With the Russian airstrikes — on the one hand, it's easier to get data because it's in areas where people are online, and there are activists that we've known for years that are sending us information," Houry said. "The challenge there is that Russian airstrike are taking place at the same time as the Syrian army is trying to advance, shelling, it's coming from all sides."

Civilians Under the Gun In Syria

[pseudolus]

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

A criminal on the run from Syria, who lives in a bungalow in Coventry. This is what this "Syrian Observatory" actually is. He is paid by the UK and EU to pump out propaganda to enforce the corporate line of murdering assad and putting in an american faux government.

Whole article is discredited straight away.

[baldrick]

and putting in an american faux government.

like libya ?

the russians are going to get sucked into an expensive and unpopular war and they will start losing helis and aircraft to saudi supplied manpads which will cause quite a bit of diplomatic friction with the west

[harrybarracuda]

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

A criminal on the run from Syria, who lives in a bungalow in Coventry. This is what this "Syrian Observatory" actually is. He is paid by the UK and EU to pump out propaganda to enforce the corporate line of murdering assad and putting in an american faux government.

Whole article is discredited straight away.

What you mean is that you don't want to believe it, because it doesn't fit your fairy tale version of events.

Confirmation Bias, no more, no less.

[Bettyboo]

civilian deaths constitute nearly one-third of the 370 people killed by Russian warplanes since the campaign began.

As opposed to say, the US drones, which kill 15+ civilians for ever single 'terrorist' killed.

Here's a report that came up first when I Googled civilians killed in US airstrikes:

Hundreds of civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Isis targets – report
Airwars project details ‘credible reports’ of at least 459 non-combatant deaths, including 100 children, in 52 air strikes
Hundreds of civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Isis targets ? report | World news | The Guardian

If those figures are accurate and consistent; if... then factoring through by:

More than 5,700 air strikes have been launched in the campaign
(from the same Guardian article)

then that'd be more than 5,000 civilian deaths from US airstrikes in a year and a bit.

According to the article:

the US-led coalition has so far acknowledged just two non-combatant deaths.

[misskit]

As opposed to say, the US drones, which kill 15+ civilians for ever single 'terrorist' killed.

You could say anything you want to here but would not make it true.

then that'd be more than 5,000 civilian deaths from US airstrikes in a year and a bit.

The article in the OP uses the same source as yourself but doesn't come up with this. Again, I would say it is not true.


The last three paragraphs explains why it is easier to get information about the Russian bombing than American. Location. The Russians are bombing in areas where there is still internet.

I doubt Russian bombs are kinder than American bombs, they just haven't been involved as long.

[harrybarracuda]

civilian deaths constitute nearly one-third of the 370 people killed by Russian warplanes since the campaign began.

As opposed to say, the US drones, which kill 15+ civilians for ever single 'terrorist' killed.

Here's a report that came up first when I Googled civilians killed in US airstrikes:

Hundreds of civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Isis targets – report
Airwars project details ‘credible reports’ of at least 459 non-combatant deaths, including 100 children, in 52 air strikes
Hundreds of civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Isis targets ? report | World news | The Guardian

If those figures are accurate and consistent; if... then factoring through by:

More than 5,700 air strikes have been launched in the campaign
(from the same Guardian article)

then that'd be more than 5,000 civilian deaths from US airstrikes in a year and a bit.

According to the article:

the US-led coalition has so far acknowledged just two non-combatant deaths.

Pseudopuss will love that one. It says the Russians haven't killed *any* civilians.

He will believe everything else.

[thaimeme]

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

A criminal on the run from Syria, who lives in a bungalow in Coventry. This is what this "Syrian Observatory" actually is. He is paid by the UK and EU to pump out propaganda to enforce the corporate line of murdering assad and putting in an american faux government.

Whole article is discredited straight away.

What might one expect from a high subjective and bias news source.
We witness the twist continuously and most take convention verbatim as it derives from the observed officialdom. Conditioning and manipulation repeated over and again.

It's no wonder as most haven't a clue regarding the objective reality regarding current and historic events - last week or 200 years ago.

[Bettyboo]

Pseudopuss will love that one. It says the Russians haven't killed *any* civilians.

It was written/published on Aug 3rd, before the Ruskies started their air strikes.

You could say anything you want to here but would not make it true.

I've spent times detailing this in the past. Some statistics from respected sources, state the numbers at 19 civilians for every 'terrorist' killed by drones. One thing is an absolute certainty: it's a massive ratio, definitely more than 10:1, and the drones have been used many many times for years, killing many thousands of civilians - putin these Rusian figures into relief.

The article in the OP uses the same source as yourself but doesn't come up with this. Again, I would say it is not true.

Here is what I said:

If those figures are accurate and consistent; if... then factoring through by:

More than 5,700 air strikes have been launched in the campaign
(from the same Guardian article)

then that'd be more than 5,000 civilian deaths from US airstrikes in a year and a bit.

It was a speculation based on simple maths. I have not detailed the drone figures above, but it is not speculation, I have detailed several times on similar threads in the past; anybody who is interested should have checked sources by now and be aware of the facts regarding how many civilians drone strikes kill... There is a lot of misinformation on the net now, and statistics on places like wiki have been massively altered as the US, Britain, Israel and yes places like Russia and China too employ many hundreds of people purely to rewrite history - very Orwellian, but well known and detailed. The reality of Mr Smith's job rewriting history is here and now - in fact it has been with us for several years now.

What is very clear is that Russian bombs, American bombs, British bombs and others have killed thousands of civilians in Syria. They have also killed thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What is also very clear is that anybody (and I'm not suggesting you here) would be a complete fool to believe the lies and propaganda coming out of the West or Russia.

[Bettyboo]

Here is a link I've posted before:

41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the ground

A new analysis of the data available to the public about drone strikes, conducted by the human-rights group Reprieve, indicates that even when operators target specific individuals – the most focused effort of what Barack Obama calls “targeted killing” – they kill vastly more people than their targets, often needing to strike multiple times. Attempts to kill 41 men resulted in the deaths of an estimated 1,147 people, as of 24 November.

...

An estimated 142 children were killed in the course of pursuing those 24 men, only six of whom died in the course of drone strikes that killed their intended targets.

...

“Drone strikes have been sold to the American public on the claim that they’re ‘precise’. But they are only as precise as the intelligence that feeds them. There is nothing precise about intelligence that results in the deaths of 28 unknown people, including women and children, for every ‘bad guy’ the US goes after,” said Reprieve’s Jennifer Gibson, who spearheaded the group’s study.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ikes-kill-1147


If you look at many sights on your Google hits now, then you'll see figures of 3% - 8% civilian deaths only; this is a massive lie... But, you'll need to take copies of links such as the one above because they are being rewritten very quickly...


This report from the Washington Times says that:

1) the drones kill unintended targets 9 out of 10 times.
2) the success rate of killing targets is only 10%.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that 8 times out of ten no 'targets' are killed, but 'unintended kills' occur. This statistics are very damning and obviously conflict with the ridiculous 'success rates' claimed by the massive ongoing propaganda.

Drone strikes conducted by the United States during a 5-month-long campaign in Afghanistan caused the deaths of unintended targets nearly nine out of ten times, leaked intelligence documents suggest.

The apparent 10 percent success rate with regards to a specific span in America’s drone war is among the most damning revelations to surface so far as the result of a series of articles published by The Intercept on Thursday this week which rely on classified and confidential intelligence documents supplied by an unknown source.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...es-in-afghani/

[thaimeme]

Nothing short of distraction and misdirection...


Per usual most eat it up.

[harrybarracuda]

Pseudopuss will love that one. It says the Russians haven't killed *any* civilians.

It was written/published on Aug 3rd, before the Ruskies started their air strikes.

Their website has reports up to 18th October.

But it's only those nasty US coalition killers, not the Putin's Crusader Coalition.

Civilian and ?friendly fire? casualties | Airwars

[Norton]

What is very clear is that Russian bombs, American bombs, British bombs and others have killed thousands of civilians in Syria. They have also killed thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Indeed they have and pity the poor souls aka statistics, caught in the cross fire.
"One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic." So said Joe and how right he was.

[sabang]

VOA's propaganda technique could hardly be described as subtle.

[harrybarracuda]

VOA's propaganda technique could hardly be described as subtle.

No less subtle than RT/Press TV/CCTV/KCTV

[misskit]

Looked into other sources regarding Russian bombings and found this. Hope The Guardian cuts the mustard.




Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say

At least four hospitals have been bombed by fighter jets in north-western Syria since Russia’s intervention in the war began in late September, doctors and international observers claim.

The latest attack, on Tuesday, killed at least 12 people at Sarmin hospital in Idlib province. At least three of the victims were believed to be medical staff. Survivors and witnesses said the hospital was hit by two airstrikes at about 1pm.

Dr Mohamed Tennari, director of Sarmin hospital, said the facility appeared to have been directly targeted and could no longer serve patients on one of the fiercest frontlines in the war.

He said the hospital had been the target of at least 10 other airstrikes earlier in the conflict. Throughout the war, international medical organisations have repeatedly claimed that medical facilities in opposition areas have been systematically targeted.

Physicians for Human Rights said it had documented 313 attacks on medical facilities and the deaths of 679 medical personnel in Syria since protests against the regime of Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011 until the end of August 2015. “Syrian government forces have been responsible for more than 90% of these attacks,” the organisation said. “Each of which constitutes a war crime.”

The latest attack comes less than two weeks after a US attack on a hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, which killed at least 22 people – 12 of them medical professionals and the rest patients. That attack was widely condemned and has forced an apology from senior US officials, as well as several international investigations.

More Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say | World news | The Guardian

[thaimeme]

VOA's propaganda technique could hardly be described as subtle.

No less subtle than RT/Press TV/CCTV/KCTV

Indeed....that's why they're all brothers in an odd manipulating way.

[Bettyboo]

Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say

At least four hospitals have been bombed by fighter jets in north-western Syria since Russia’s intervention in the war began in late September, doctors and international observers claim.

I don't doubt it.

But let's put a tad of thought into, build a history... We wouldn't need to do much research to find many US and Israeli bombings of hospitals too. Why?

Perhaps, and there has been lots of discussion on this and similar topics, but not too often on surface media, anyway - perhaps, folks hide in hospitals, especially sick folk who need hospital treatment, but other folks too. For example, you may remember rockets being fired, allegedly, from Chulalongkorn hospital during the street occupations in Bangkok. &, the likes of Russia, US and Israel, all of whom use terms such as 'collateral damage' and all of whom detail what levels they consider to be acceptable civilian deaths, all of whom go on to lie and manipulate these numbers, well perhaps they all deliberately bomb these hospitals because they simple don't give a fuk about civilian deaths.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Russians and the nasty other communists in Russia and the very nasty axis of evil members such as Iran and North Korea do kill civilians in ways such as bombing hospitals.

What I find strange, with the history of the last few decades, the last few centuries, etc, is suggestions that the folks such as Russians are somehow worse and kill more people than the wonderfully democratic people of Israel, UK and US.

I find it strange when folks talk about how awful Stalin was, but choose to ignore actions in Ireland, India and across the world really by the British Empire. I also find it strange when folks talk about Russia's bombing of hospitals and choose to ignore the history of the middle east dominated by British, US and Israeli murdering.

Even within quite recent history: US napalming villages of women and children, killing a couple of million in Vietnam - a totally, 100% innocent nation - it simply doesn't get any worse, and we (as in the west) are continuing to do the same, then claim Russia, Iran and North Korea are the monsters... Insane.

To be fair, that article does add some relief:

The latest attack comes less than two weeks after a US attack on a hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, which killed at least 22 people – 12 of them medical professionals and the rest patients. That attack was widely condemned and has forced an apology from senior US officials, as well as several international investigations.

[misskit]

There are plenty of threads about the US bombings along with rightful criticism. Post about the Russians entering the fray and the destruction they cause brings a sort of apology/explanation and further criticism of America and others. Go figure.

One would surmise that you consider the Russians are beyond reproach because all Americans consider them evil. (We all don't.)

Personally, I have hopes the Russians can improve the situation in Syria. I wish them luck, for they will need it.


Thread on the US bombing of the hospital and the reaction from Obama.
https://teakdoor.com/world-news/15823...ml#post3114840 (Afghan air strike: Kunduz MSF clinic workers killed)

[pseudolus]

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

A criminal on the run from Syria, who lives in a bungalow in Coventry. This is what this "Syrian Observatory" actually is. He is paid by the UK and EU to pump out propaganda to enforce the corporate line of murdering assad and putting in an american faux government.

Whole article is discredited straight away.

What you mean is that you don't want to believe it, because it doesn't fit your fairy tale version of events.

Confirmation Bias, no more, no less.

Umm no. What i mean is that the bloke int he article is a criminal on the run from Syria, who lives in a bungalow in coventry, and he IS the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Him alone. A man who has not set foot in Syria for over 13 years, claims the dole, gets some funding from the EU for his blog.... that is it.

FFS harryfool - only a complete and utter moron would listen to a the shite from this kebab muncher and believe it.

[pseudolus]

like libya ?

the russians are going to get sucked into an expensive and unpopular war and they will start losing helis and aircraft to saudi supplied manpads which will cause quite a bit of diplomatic friction with the west

Indeed. The Big Zbig's favourite ploy for venting his anti russian blood lust. Create the terrorists, get them to drag Russia in, have a proxy war, and pump out the propaganda at the same time for fools like harry to slurp up.

It was written/published on Aug 3rd, before the Ruskies started their air strikes.

Don't go and rain on harry's parade like that. Poor little boy.

Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say

.... hmm usually it is the MErkins that bomb the shit out of hospitals, schools and infrastructure. SO they know this was done by Russian planes how exactly? More likely to be from the axis of evil - two birds with one bomb; propaganda for the anti russia brigade, and some blood letting... which the west loves more than anything else.

[harrybarracuda]

FFS harryfool - only a complete and utter moron would listen to a the shite from this kebab muncher and believe it.

I daresay he pumps up the numbers a bit, but his figures are commensurate with those released by people like the UN.

You just don't want to believe it because of your painfully embarrassing confirmation bias.

So according to you Putin and Assad are only bombing nasty IS terrorists, but for the civilian population they are dropping rose petals and fairy dust and everyone loves them.

You are incapable of taking an objective look at the conflict.

Because you're a gullible tin foil twat.

[pseudolus]

FFS harryfool - only a complete and utter moron would listen to a the shite from this kebab muncher and believe it.

I daresay he pumps up the numbers a bit, but his figures are commensurate with those released by people like the UN.

You just don't want to believe it because of your painfully embarrassing confirmation bias.

So according to you Putin and Assad are only bombing nasty IS terrorists, but for the civilian population they are dropping rose petals and fairy dust and everyone loves them.

You are incapable of taking an objective look at the conflict.

Because you're a gullible tin foil twat.

ummmm harry... the UN stopped counting in 2013 due to never being able to get accurate information. They now rely on .... have a guess... the kebab muncher criminal on the run from his bungalow in Coventry


A real expert on Syria, rather than some EU (ergo US as well) funded criminal who thinks he has a chance of being in the Syrian government once the legitimate head Assad is murdered by Washington, says about the Kebab Muncher...

Abdul Rahman's methods have been criticized by others following the conflict. When the group released its 150,000 figure in April, James Miller, managing editor of the Interpreter and an expert on the Syrian conflict, tweeted a number of disparaging remarks. "Everything about that chart screams BS!" he tweeted at one point, before explaining that he knew "field reporters who have never encountered a SOHR source in Syria."

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of examples why [SOHR] is a terrible source," Miller explained in a follow-up email to The Post, before citing a list of his own criticism, including that moderate rebels were listed as civilians in the data – an apparent change to the methodology that was also noted by Micah Zenko at the Council of Foreign Relations. Miller argued that the way SOHR broke down their numbers between civilians and jihadists showed that they were "significantly less objective" than other groups tracking data, though he added that their bias was unclear.

Abdul is pro USA, pro ISIS, pro Saudi, Pro murder and death, and pro keeping his gravy train flowing.

[harrybarracuda]

ummmm harry... the UN stopped counting in 2013 due to never being able to get accurate information. They now rely on .... have a guess... the kebab muncher criminal on the run from his bungalow in Coventry

Telling lies doesn't help your cause.

22 August 2014 – The number of people killed in Syria is double the number documented a year ago, the United Nations human rights chief today announced, criticizing the international community for its failure to stop the “killers, destroyers and torturers” that have torn the country apart.

In a third report on Syria carried out on behalf of the UN Human Rights Office (OHCHR), data specialists identified 191,369 people killed between March 2011 and the end of April 2014.

“Tragically, it is probably an underestimate of the real total number of people killed during the first three years of this murderous conflict,” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said in a statement.

The figure was obtained by cross-checking a combined list of 318,910 reported killings, fully identified by the name of the victim, as well as the date and location of the death. According to Ms. Pillay’s office, any reported killing that did not include at least these three elements was excluded.

The list was compiled using datasets from five different sources, three of which have reported killings throughout the whole three-year period, and two of which – including the Government of Syria – cover only part of the period.

Records of reported killings were compared in order to identify duplicates, resulting in the final figure of 191,369 unique records of conflict-related deaths as of 30 April 2014.

Nearly 52,000 other reporter killings did not contain sufficient information to be counted, according to the study. The authors added that there is a “strong likelihood” that a significant number of killings may not have been reported at all.

Link

- - - - -

Open your eyes man.

Stop being such a berk.


P.S. Does this sound like a man who's trying to play up civilian deaths?

This was later confirmed when in late May 2012, Rami Abdulrahman of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which is one of the opposition-affiliated groups counting the number of those killed in the uprising, stated that civilians who had taken up arms during the conflict were being counted under the category of "civilians".

Oh dear, and there's more:

Abdul Rahman is generally perceived to be in opposition to Bashar al-Assad's Syrian regime, but at times the motivation behind SOHR can seem more complex. Recently, the organization began drawing attention to what it said were civilian deaths created by U.S. airstrikes. That created an awkward situation for the United States, which had frequently cited the organization's statistics. "Nobody is happy with our work, because nobody wants the truth to come out," Abdul Rahman told the Huffington Post in November. "Our group doesn't have the whole truth, but we are very close."

And from the very article you quoted:

There still remains hope that one day people in Syria will face trial for war crimes, however, and evidence on deaths collected by SOHR and other groups may prove important. Sadly, it appears that there are few critics who think SOHR's estimates are too low. Some think they should be higher.

[MrG]

What I find strange, with the history of the last few decades, the last few centuries, etc, is suggestions that the folks such as Russians are somehow worse and kill more people than the wonderfully democratic people of Israel, UK and US.

Because those that win write the historical narrative, at least they get the first write.

Great observation and one not made enough, especially in the MSM where our supposedly free press does its best to avoid it.